Agriculture Committee on May 2nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Bravo. Good luck.

Thank you, Mr. Carr. Best of luck in your future parliamentary journeys on other committees.

Mr. Barlow, we'll go over to you for up to five minutes.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I just want to clarify something, Ms. Loftsgard. You mentioned that more farmers are going to organic, but in the document you presented to this committee some time ago, which asked for support and had recommendations you wanted of the government, the Organic Trade Association said that organic operators fell for the first time, in 2022, by 3.8%.

Which number is right? Is the number of operators going down, or, to your earlier comment today, is the number of operators actually going up?

[Tia Loftsgard]

In 2022, they were going down by 3.8%. We're just tallying the numbers for 2023 right now. It looks like it's going in that direction; it's going up again. However, the thing is, when prices fluctuate, people come and go sometimes from organic, and it's difficult—

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

That's fine. I just wanted to clarify that. It may have more to do with the prices than maybe what the Organic Trade Association is trying to say on opportunities there, which would be like many other commodities.

I want to go to Ms. Brekveld.

You were talking about labour. Minister Boissonnault hinted earlier this week that the temporary foreign worker cap may go down to 10%. They are saying that primary agriculture may not be included in that drop to 10%, but that agriculture processing and manufacturing and food production would go down to that 10%.

Can you comment on what the impact would be to the supply chain for produce growers if they did not have access to plants that were operating? Can you maybe comment on what impact that 10% cap would have on your industry?

[Peggy Brekveld]

Certainly, and we actually saw this when a peach canner—I believe it was Del Monte—in the Niagara area closed. When it was gone, most of the peach trees stopped being peach trees. A few went into fresh pick, but most of them were gone. That is the consequence of less processing in this country.

The importance of workers not just in planting, tending and harvesting, but in processing, who make it so that food is ready and available on your plate, is also critical. Any ability for the placements that currently go to processing to continue will be appreciated.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Thank you, Ms. Brekveld.

I'd like to pass the rest of my time to Mr. Lehoux.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Currie, several times today and at several previous meetings we have talked about problems involving our enterprise risk management programs.

You said at the outset that you are always consulted on this, but sometimes that happens at the end of the process. You also offered some recommendations concerning the changes that might be made to the risk management programs.

Could you and your colleague from British Columbia provide the committee, orally, but most importantly in writing, with the proposals made by the Canadian Federation of Agriculture?

We can discuss them now, but it would be worthwhile to get the proposals in writing so they can be incorporated into our recommendations.

Are you comfortable with doing things that way?

[Keith Currie]

Yes, and thank you for offering up an opportunity to speak to that.

We absolutely would be happy to submit to the committee some recommendations and comments on it. Also, as you heard earlier, Sukhpaul is part of NPAC as well, and he's very engaged with the British Columbia Agriculture Council and is a member of that organization.

We will make sure that all of our members across the country get comments to the committee. They can take a look at this and make recommendations going forward. Thank you for that.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you.

In the same vein, you brought up the idea of renewing the Sustainable Canadian Agriculture Partnership before 2028, because that is much too far off. We all agree about that. In any event, I agree.

Can you also tell us about some aspects of the partnership you would like to see changed quickly?

[Keith Currie]

Certainly the partnership is not an easy one to come up with, because you're dealing with provincial and federal ministers of agriculture in different regions. Coming to a consensus on that at times can be difficult, but I think if the provinces are allowed to have a little more flexibility—they have some now, but more flexibility—on how they implement risk management programs within their jurisdictions, that would make them much more effective regionally. These programs could start to include different sectors of the industry that aren't already included in some of the programming.

I think that's a first step. We also have to talk about, as I mentioned earlier, programs that are outside of SCAP, stand-alone programs for severe climate issues that happen so that we can respond to them quickly, and separate packages that lead to mitigation of those impacts going forward. I think that's a different conversation from what's within the SCAP program.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Thank you, Mr. Currie.

Thank you, Mr. Lehoux.

Ms. Taylor Roy, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today. I'm sorry that our committee time was shortened. There are so many good questions to ask of all the witnesses here.

I would like to address my initial questions to Ms. Loftsgard and Ms. Flies regarding organic farming.

From what you've been describing and talking about, it seems the organic sector has a lot of potential. It's addressing a number of the issues we're facing in local sustainable food and perhaps even the workforce, and in diverse crops and soil health, which are also very positive. I'm wondering if you can comment on the profitability of organic farms or the stability of organic farms versus others. To my understanding, you use far fewer inputs that you have to purchase on the open market—for example, when fertilizer prices went up so high.

I'm wondering if you could comment on that, Ms. Loftsgard.

[Tia Loftsgard]

I'll start, and then I'll pass it over to Gillian.

I'll quote the census statistics. Some 63% of organic farmers are earning over $100,000 versus 44% of non-organic farmers. We've seen through the agricultural census that there are more farmers earning higher incomes.

I'd like to pass the floor over to Gillian in regard to the profitability.

[Gillian Flies]

On our farm, for example, we are able to garner $50,000 an acre in vegetables, because we're able to plant through multiple times. Our biggest cost is labour, but we really work hard on limiting imports. We buy seeds, which we need annually, but we do not have to buy any inputs—fertilizers, herbicides, pesticides, any of those things—the costs of which have become prohibitive.

I like to quote Gabe Brown's saying: I prefer to sign the back of the cheque instead of the front. I think this focus on yield only is a problem. You need to look at the bottom line as well.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

When it comes to finding the labour force you need, do you find that young people are more interested and more willing to work on organic farms, or do you feel it's the same across the entire farming infrastructure?

[Gillian Flies]

I'm also on the board of Canadian Organic Growers, and we find that a significant percentage of new farmers, young farmers, who are interested in regenerative and organic are coming into the field. We're actually setting up a demonstration farm. We're transitioning to a demonstration farm for regenerative agriculture on our farm in Creemore. We have lots of young people applying to be involved in that movement and to work on that program. To find Canadian workers who will hand cut salad for 10 hours a day just seasonally is really challenging.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

In my riding of Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, we have a number of different alliances. The York Region Environmental Alliance is promoting small agricultural and local sustainable farms in our area. However, one of the issues we're facing is available farmland. I'm wondering if you could comment on what the situation is like for new farmers looking to start farms and acquire land.

[Gillian Flies]

Is that for me as well?

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

That's for anyone.

[Gillian Flies]

I'll start by saying it's a huge issue. Up in our area especially, up near Creemore, a lot of people come to ski. We could sell our farm tomorrow and make almost as much money as we are farming.

It's really challenging, but I know there are some unique models, like people setting up agricultural condos where they are able to put multiple farmers with shared infrastructure on 100-acre farms. That's happening in Owen Sound. I can follow up with you. There's a woman who's doing that. She bought a 400-acre farm and has eight farmers who are now tenanting it.

There is room for that, but it is really prohibitive for people entering.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I know we have a motion to look at preserving farmland across the country because of food sustainability and food security, which are obviously of national interest. My grandfather's farm was in Owen Sound. You mentioned that. I have fond memories of going up there, so I think that's a great idea.

I know my time is almost up.

The last thing I want to ask, Ms. Loftsgard, is whether you could submit to the committee your thoughts on what the policy directive might be or what you're looking for specifically in terms of our government setting up a separate directive for the organic sector. I think with all of the benefits of soil health, the environment, sustainability and attracting more people to farming, it would be an interesting initiative.

[Tia Loftsgard]

We have been working for the last two years as an alliance among the three national associations, consulting with all the provinces and stakeholders to create the foundation of an organic action plan. In there, there are four pillars, but the big focus is on production supports because without producers, we have no market. Without a market, we have no producers. Those are the two areas we're really highlighting.

We'll be putting forth a budget submission for this year's federal budget and hope to have support. We will continue to work with our policy-makers and Agriculture Canada to make sure we find the right solutions. There's only so much industry can do without having a policy framework. We've run into barriers. Now we're at a place where we need to ask for actual regulatory changes or a full-on act.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

I think my time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Kody Blois]

Yes, it is.

We have until 1:30. If the witnesses absolutely have to leave, they can, but we want to utilize their time while they're here.

I'm going to Mr. Perron. I'm going to give him five minutes. I'm then going to take some time. If any of our colleagues want time—I know some of you will have to leave—we'll then open the floor to an open format, basically.

Mr. Perron, the floor is yours.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Given the exceptional nature of today's meeting, I would reiterate what I said earlier: that the witnesses can always submit comments in writing to the committee afterward. They should not hesitate to do so, given that speaking time during meetings is very limited.

Ms. Brekveld, I would like to talk to you about the workforce issue, which is your specialization. We often hear about problems relating to temporary foreign workers, one such problem being bureaucracy. I am sure you are going to tell us, again, that we need to cut the red tape, facilitate access, and so on, but have you also given some thought to how sustainable the system is? Can we still operate this way?

Can you offer the committee any solutions, either now or afterward, in more detail and in writing?