Evidence of meeting #38 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was policies.
A video is available from Parliament.
2 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I don't mean about China. I mean Dr. Qiu.
Dr. Qiu is under investigation. There's a report related to Dr. Qiu on March 23. She is the instigating force behind this transfer.
How are there not red flags at that point?
2 p.m.
Vice-President, National Microbiology Laboratory, Public Health Agency of Canada
Mr. Chair, as has been previously highlighted, these were allegations. Further investigation was ongoing.
2 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Except that the report says it's “highly improbable that she did not know” about the patent. Yes, further investigation is warranted, but they're already casting aspersions on the authenticity of her answers at that point.
I'll be honest, on the chain of events, there's major overblown commentary from Conservatives. We have the CSIS director coming here and saying no, there was expeditious action, but I look at the email chains here on approval....
Look, PHAC was aware of this too. I see an email from Allan Lau on April 3 saying, “We didn't do anything wrong...just that because of the nature of the pathogens and where it was going they (the higher-ups in PHAC) wanted to know if we did our due diligence.”
It strikes me that, if full due diligence has been done, specifically in relation to Dr. Qui, that transfer does not occur at the end of March. Is that fair to say?
2 p.m.
Vice-President, National Microbiology Laboratory, Public Health Agency of Canada
The investigations were ongoing at that time, and the procedures were ongoing.
2 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Lastly, Ms. Jeffrey, you said to my colleague, Mr. Fragiskatos—and I appreciate it—that there were “no unauthorized removals”. At the same time, there were many documented instances in which restricted visitors had inappropriate access. You have shipments regularly mislabelled.
Given the evidence of lying from Dr. Qiu and Dr. Cheng, the evidence that they were completely untruthful on multiple occasions, matched with the evidence of mislabelling and inappropriate access for restricted visitors, what makes you so confident that there were no unauthorized removals? What do you base that on?
2 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
I base that statement on the very rigorous, multi-key approach that we have to safeguard pathogens and toxins.
I'll turn to Dr. Poliquin to talk about the audit process that ensures that we have an accurate accounting constantly of those materials.
2:05 p.m.
Vice-President, National Microbiology Laboratory, Public Health Agency of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Under the HPT regulations, inventory control for these pathogens is very complex. It involves regular auditing of the materials. It's done independently of any other scientists and has been an ongoing process over the past 20 years. Following the regular audit procedures, but also in the wake of the incidents, audits were conducted, and we can confirm that all specimens that were expected to be there and logged are present and accounted for.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I appreciate that.
I know, Mr. Chair, I'm out of time.
I appreciate all the answers. I would just say that it would be even better if you said that you've done a lot of due diligence and you did the best you could—CSIS is coming to your defence in a very serious way—and acknowledged that that transfer at the end of March was a mistake. That would also be welcome.
Thanks very much.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you, Mr. Erskine-Smith.
Now, we're going a little into our second hour. Would the committee like to go to six minutes each and then go back to the five, five, two and a half, two and a half minutes? Or do you want to continue with five, five, two and a half, two and a half minutes?
I'm thinking in particular of the Bloc and the NDP having a bit of extra question time.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
[Inaudible—Editor] of the committee, and we are four-elevenths of the committee. We should just continue with—
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
I'm sorry, but the issue is that normally, after an hour, we flip panels and then we begin with the routine all over—six minutes each side, then five, five, two and a half and two and a half minutes.
I'm just asking the committee if they want to revert to that pattern for this second hour.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
I believe, Mr. Chair, since it is a single, two-hour panel, we should abide by the terms of the routine motion adopted at the beginning of this committee to continue as that motion specifies.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Are there any other comments on this? I see none.
All right. We will live, then, according to the routine motions, and we will go to Mr. Chong for five minutes.
April 19th, 2024 / 2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Madam Jeffrey, you mentioned several times that international collaboration in research among level 4 labs in the area of human pathogens and viruses is important. My question is asked in that context.
The named research organizations list that Public Safety has developed and put out does not include the Wuhan Institute of Virology. That list, though, does state that institutions that are not on the list may still pose a risk and that different entities within the Government of Canada are to take that risk and assess it, even though institutions like the Wuhan Institute of Virology may not be on the list.
The Minister of Health, I think, previously said that there was collaboration going on between entities in the PRC and the national microbiology laboratory, and then later said that there wasn't any collaboration going on. My simple question is this: Can you confirm that there is no ongoing collaboration, either in terms of transfers of information or materials, between the lab in Winnipeg and any entities in the People's Republic of China, including the Wuhan Institute of Virology?
2:05 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
I can confirm that, since this collaboration that we've been speaking of today ended, there is no collaboration with the government of China or institutes in China on issues related to that lab or any others. Minister Holland was referring to the fact that we continue to participate in the UN and other multilateral bodies where it's possible that there could be representatives of the government of China present, but there are no bilateral co-operation or collaboration agreements now.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Mr. Chong, I'm going to stop the clock.
Mr. Villemure has lost connection, and we're just getting him back on.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
We are back.
We are still trying to connect with Mr. Villemure. We'll do out best, but in the meantime, the business must proceed.
Mr. Chong, you have two minutes and 42 seconds remaining.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question is for the deputy minister of health.
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we're trying to understand why it took 10 months for the lab to be secured. My question is this: When did the deputy minister of health first become aware of the issues in the Winnipeg lab? Was it in 2018 or 2019?
2:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Health
Mr. Chair, I assumed my role at Health Canada at the beginning of September 2019. I don't have specific information pertaining to my predecessor's being informed, but I would assume that he would have been informed at key junctures by the president of the Public Health Agency at that time.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Could you get back to the committee with that information? It's material.