Evidence of meeting #113 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
That's a month from the date of the letter being written. If that's acceptable to everyone, I think that's a reasonable timeline.
I will advise the committee that there is nothing binding to this, so that we're all aware of that, but based on what Mr. Green is proposing, I think it's a reasonable request. It may or may not help Ms. Maynard, but what will help is the fact that the message has been heard by this committee.
I am going to seek unanimous consent on what Mr. Green proposes. I'm not seeing any dissension.
(Motion agreed to)
We're going to continue on.
Unfortunately, that's the end of your time, Mr. Green. Thank you.
We're going to go to Mr. Kurek for a five-minute round.
Go ahead, Mr. Kurek.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Thank you very much, and thank you, Commissioner, both for coming again to the committee and for your work. As a highlight, you talked a bit about the quasi-constitutional right to access. Maybe that's something that would be articulated in a perfect world as a constitutional right. I think that open and transparent government should certainly be the default, and it is incredibly frustrating that we have this culture of secrecy that exists.
In a follow-up to the conversation, you referenced—and I apologize if I missed it—there were four of the six you referenced in your opening remarks. One was with TMC. Four were with the Department of National Defence. Did you mention what the other one was?
11:35 a.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
It was six with the referral of the investigation to the Attorney General, but four applications of mandamus: three against DND and one against TMC.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Okay, I appreciate that being clarified; there are those four current proceedings before the courts.
Now I think that we find ourselves in an interesting circumstance. You've been given order-making power, and it would have at one point in time been seen to have been enough to name and shame. We've had similar conversations now with a series of ethics commissioners to the effect that a $500 fine for breaking the ethics rules was at one point seen to be.... The punishment of being exposed as having broken the ethics rules was enough.
You were assured in the beginning not to worry about it—there's no penalty because it's not a big deal, because of course they'd want to.... I'm being a bit facetious here, but Madam Maynard, Commissioner, what would be an appropriate penalty to ensure that we don't have this culture of secrecy ultimately perpetrated upon Canadians who are denied access to their information?
11:40 a.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
It's really hard to tell what would make institutions understand their obligations and the fact that it's important that they respect the law, that the requests must be responded to within a certain time, and that the orders of the commissioner must be complied with.
Who's responsible, ultimately? Is it the unit that's responding, the minister, the people between? It would be a difficult task to determine where it broke, but a penalty.... We don't have penalties under the act. The Commissioner of Official Languages was just provided with some penalties with his new act, so it's going to be interesting to see if that has an impact, but I would love to have performance objectives whereby maybe some people would be required to respect the obligations under the act.
April 18th, 2024 / 11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
When criminality is involved, you refer those cases to the Attorney General. It seems to me that it would be possible, but that's a bit like a black hole. You don't see the result of that, and certainly Canadians don't see the result of that. Does there need to be transparency in that process, so that if you see criminality, if there's a need for that referral, there's a public reporting mechanism?
Certainly, I would like to know, in the six cases that you've referred to, what the deal is with those. Are cabinet ministers implicated? Was there criminality within departments? Those are open questions that I think should be fair ones to ask, yet we have this black hole currently that exists, administratively, such that the good work that your office does comes against the wall of prosecutions. Then, all of a sudden, it is a Liberal-appointed Attorney General who is responsible for the decision-making process in terms of what to do with possible criminality that could have significant political consequences.
Do you see a concern with that process?
11:40 a.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Under my submission for amendments to the act, I suggested that it be changed to a referral to the appropriate authorities. That would open my authority to refer to the RCMP or to another police authority. Right now it's very specific that it has to be referred to the Attorney General.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
There could be, right now, alleged criminality that is not being investigated because it would be easier for the Attorney General to simply make it go away.
11:40 a.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
It's their decision. It's within their authority to decide what they investigate or not.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Commissioner and Mr. Kurek.
We're going to go to Mr. Fisher for five minutes.
Go ahead.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank you for that moment of silence at the start of our meeting. As a Nova Scotian, I certainly very much appreciate it.
Commissioner, welcome. Thank you very much for coming today.
In the main estimates, your office is asking for just over $15.3 million, which is an increase of just over $1.1 million over last year. Can you tell me what that $1.1 million looks like, what that represents, and how those funds will be used?
11:40 a.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
The last time we received an increase was in 2020, and it was with respect to amendments to the act. Anything we get, we invest in our investigators. The number of complaints we receive is increasing every year, so we put that money into more people, to investigate faster and to eliminate our inventory as quickly as possible.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Notwithstanding the way you would like to see your office funded based on the number of complaints, is this budget increase going to be sufficient to enable your office to fulfill the mandate? Do you feel comfortable with that number?
11:40 a.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I haven't had an increase in the last three or four years. I requested $2 million per year for three years in the last budget request for temporary funding, and that was not provided.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
This is the first increase, then, in the last few years, this $1.1 million.
11:45 a.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I don't really know where the $1.1 million comes from, because the last time I received money, it was $3 million a year since 2020.
Is it possible that it's the Privacy Commissioner you're referring to?
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
No, it's the OIC. It's seeking $15.3 million, an increase of $1.3 over last year's main estimates.
11:45 a.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Now I think I understand what you're saying. It's the additional funds for collective agreements for all of our employees. I would say that 75% of our employees received an increase in the last four years, so that would be covering that.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
I think you may have touched on this with Mr. Kurek, but with regard to the Access to Information Act, you did say that there were some amendments made to it, but you said that you pledged to continue advocating for changes to the act and the system. I'm wondering what those changes might look like, and I think you touched on one with MP Kurek.
Could you maybe talk in broad terms about what those changes might look like?
11:45 a.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
First of all, the act, because it's 40 years old, needs to be modernized in terms of its purpose. Right now, I don't have access to cabinet confidence, so those documents are not reviewed by my office. That's something, I think, that's problematic, because the section to say that something is subject to cabinet confidence is being used more and more, and there is nobody independent from the government right now investigating those documents.
I think that the act should also be applicable to ministers' offices and the Prime Minister's office as well, so that would broaden the application of the act. Those are some of the submissions and recommendations that I made to this committee during the review of the act.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you for that.
In your departmental plan, you said that you're going to continue to do everything possible to continue the trend that you established of improving performance and being more efficient.
Can you tell me some of the things you might have done to do that and if that's something we can use as a blueprint for other departments? We're always looking for ways to be more efficient.
11:45 a.m.
Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
When I arrived as the new commissioner in 2018, the first thing I set in motion was to be more efficient so investigations could be done in a timely manner. We added tasks and timelines to all of those, and we follow them. We don't give extra unlimited time to institutions to respond to us anymore. We have so many files. We could leave them. We have other files to work on. However, when we open a complaint, it's assigned and we finish it. We don't put it back in a drawer.
Those are the types of things we focus on. We invest all our money in investigations and in the training for that. We provide guidelines to our investigators, so there's consistency as well.
