Information & Ethics Committee on May 16th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the 118th meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, April 9, 2024, the committee is commencing today its study on access to documents of the national microbiology laboratory in Winnipeg.

I will just remind everyone, without going through the lengthy note about the earpieces, that we want to make sure we avoid injury to our interpreters. For those who are appearing in person, including you, Ms. Maynard, when you're not talking, please put the earpiece aside. The same goes for members who are here.

Without further ado, I am going to—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I have Mr. Green and Monsieur Villemure on points of order before we begin.

Go ahead, Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You referenced a motion. Will you read the motion pertaining to today's meeting?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I can. The motion adopted, as amended, reads:

That, in light of the February 28, 2024, tabling of the Winnipeg lab documents which contained the government’s own findings concluding that the People’s Republic of China and its entities infiltrated Canada’s top microbiology lab, a national security breach representing a very serious and credible threat to Canada, and given that access to this information had been denied to Parliament and all Canadians by the government for several years, the committee undertake a study, for three meetings, pursuant to Standing Orders 108(3)(h)(vi) and (vii), of the government’s reasons to deny access to it by Parliament and Canadians, provided that the committee report its findings to the House and request, pursuant to Standing Order 109, a comprehensive response from the government, and call the following witnesses to appear for one hour per witness:

(a) Anthony Rota, former Speaker of the House of Commons;

(b) Philippe Dufresne, former Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel of the House of Commons;

(c) Iain Stewart, former President of the Public Health Agency of Canada;

(d) the Minister of Health, the Honourable Mark Holland;

(e) the Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs, the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc; and

(f) any other witness that the committee deems necessary.

Before I go back to you on that, Mr. Green, I just want to inform the committee that when the clerk and I were dealing with the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, they were the ones who suggested that we invite Michel Bédard and not Philippe. Michel was already working for the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel and would probably have better answers. In the event that the committee is not satisfied with the meeting today, Mr. Dufresne can still be invited.

I did invite Canada's Information Commissioner at the chair's prerogative. We have three hours today. Unfortunately, From May 17 to June 10, the commissioner will be out of the country, so I thought it would be a good idea to have Canada's Information Commissioner here at least to fill one hour.

I know the invitation talked about Mr. Stewart, who was the president of the Public Health Agency of Canada. He's no longer in that position, as committee members are aware, so we can only invite him if we find him, and we're working on that.

Anthony Rota and the two ministers have been invited to the committee, and we are waiting for confirmation on potential dates. As members of the committee know, booking ministers usually results in a lot of back-and-forth.

That being said, two out of the three witnesses who have been asked by the committee to be here for the departments they serve, including the president of the Public Health Agency, are going to be appearing with us in the third hour. The Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel has sent Mr. Michel Bédard to address the committee's concerns.

I'm going to remind the committee, too, that the motion that was passed called for up to three meetings. This is meeting number one.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I haven't stated my point of order. I simply asked you to read the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's okay.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, but—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm just explaining, Mr. Green, from my perspective as chair, the reasons and rationale for where we're at. If you'll let me finish, I'll get to your point of order.

The last point I'll make is that we have up to three meetings with respect to the Winnipeg lab issue. As I mentioned, we invited the ministers to come, as well as Mr. Rota. I suspect and hope that we will be able to fill those meetings.

I just wanted to provide clarity to the committee as to where we're at today, the witnesses appearing before us and the rationale.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Green, with your point of order.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, I find your actions in unilaterally using what you have determined to be the chair's prerogative rather unusual when indeed it is the custom that committees are the masters of their own domain. You, sir, are simply there to chair the processes and procedures within the course of due planning. Planning has to come from the direction of the committee, sir. You have unilaterally taken this opportunity to call a meeting without any consideration of the other parties involved.

You'll recall that in a motion from our first meeting, dated December 13, 2021, and moved by Ms. Hepfner, who's back with us today, you were authorized, under the accorded Standing Orders, to hold meetings and to receive evidence and have it published when a quorum is not present. As to holding meetings and calling meetings, it has been my experience in my time in the House that subcommittees plan the work. What I'm particularly agitated by is the fact that, even in the course of this term, as you can reflect back on, there have been times when members have used Standing Order 106 to have an emergency meeting.

I feel that your actions today have been used to surreptitiously avoid having to negotiate with any of the other parties present to call a meeting down the final stretch. I should note for the record, for the media watching and everybody else, that every single Conservative-led committee is doing the same thing, without the ability to have, which I think is common courtesy, a planning committee—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Hold on—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

On my point of order, Mr. Chair, you'll note that the Standing Orders, as noted on the same day, December 13, require having an in camera meeting to allow the witnesses to be determined prior to the commencement of a study. You've not done that. You've effectively blocked out the Bloc, the Liberals and the NDP from determining the course of action of this study without any conversation about or consideration for scheduling. I find that to be an authoritarian use of your position and highly problematic.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you for that, Mr. Green.

I did explain earlier where we were with respect to the witnesses. I will reiterate that we have two more meetings that we can call, and invitations have been sent.

I took it upon myself to ask Ms. Maynard to be here knowing that she was going to be out of the country until June 10. We had an extra hour today to deal with her. I thought Ms. Maynard added to the discussion. That's my rationale.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It's not your position to take these types of liberties—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The other thing—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

—and decide on behalf of the committee who and when we meet.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

The other thing I will say is that, as you may or may not recall, on May 7, I indicated to the committee that I asked for deviation time, because we're running out of time very quickly. I sent you an email. I sent that to all members, including the vice-chairs—Mr. Villemure was included, and you were as well—indicating—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's not factual, sir. Deviation in time means extended time. Not once did you ever bring out in any of your testimony—you can reflect on Hansard—meeting during the course of our constituency weeks. All of us, I'm sure, have very busy schedules and have commitments in our communities. You arbitrarily took your power as the chair to circumvent—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

To call a meeting....

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

—any kind of committee discussion in a way that I think is an abuse of your power, sir.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Hang on, Mr. Kurek.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It's an absolute abuse of your power. It turns committees like this into absolute chaos when there isn't a modicum of decorum—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I have a point of order.