Fisheries Committee on May 2nd, 2024

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'll take Mel's three seconds.

There's a pattern developing here. We heard from one of the first nations chiefs on Tuesday that there is abundance at the mouth of the Yukon River going into the Bering Sea, but very few fish are making it past the Canadian border. It seems that we have the same phenomenon happening in the waters leading to British Columbia. We also see what's been going on with mackerel on the east coast. You can even throw in softwood lumber. I mean, the Americans are increasingly difficult to deal with.

I guess the question to you, Mr. Taylor, is this: Why should we keep up our end?

No, pardon me. Let me go back.

Is Alaska keeping up its end of the Pacific Salmon Treaty? Are they abiding by the terms and conditions of that treaty?

[Greg Taylor]

The short answer is yes, they are abiding by the treaty. They operate precisely by the treaty. In fact, by their accounting, we owe them more catch rather than less.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Is it fair to say, then, that we negotiated a pretty bad treaty back in the day?

[Greg Taylor]

Well, climate change has wreaked havoc. The treaty was never supposed to be about conservation. It was supposed to be about trading and balancing each other's harvests. We don't harvest any Alaskan fish to speak of any longer.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

They shouldn't, either, if it's going to be balanced.

[Greg Taylor]

That's right.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Anyway, that's beside the point.

[Greg Taylor]

Thank God.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Jim Pattison moved the Canfisco plant from Prince Rupert up to Alaska.

Do you know what percentage of the Alaskan catch Canfisco processes?

[Greg Taylor]

They are a major player in southeast Alaska. There are several major companies up there, of which they are one. They are a major remaining canner up there.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay, that's fine. I don't need to go too far down that particular rabbit hole.

There has been a new agreement—a moratorium on fishing on the Yukon River.

How much of that are you aware of? Are there essential elements we could take and apply to a new Pacific salmon treaty?

[Greg Taylor]

I'm disturbed by where the agreements on the Yukon River are going because, listening to the first nations there, they are paying most of the price. Fair subsistence fisheries are being compromised.

If these were Alaskan stocks.... The last thing Alaska would do is compromise their subsistence fisheries. Those are paramount in Alaska.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Sir, the Alaskan fishermen are doing to the first nations of the Yukon River the same as they are doing to fishers in British Columbia—scooping them up at the oceanside.

[Greg Taylor]

It's a very similar issue. Their fisheries are intercepting them in the Bering Sea and in the pollock fisheries, right down into the big gillnet fisheries that operate outside that area and intercept key populations going to the Yukon.

Yes, it's an interception fishery. It's the same issue. Stocks are declining in the Yukon and fisheries are not responding appropriately.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We have the Pacific Salmon Treaty, which has outlived its usefulness. Perhaps we have a moratorium on the Yukon River that will be toothless simply because the damage is done before any fish actually get back to the Yukon River. It would seem, then, that we've done a pretty decent job of identifying where the problems are.

What do we do about that?

[Greg Taylor]

I think there are a few different ideas.

Aaron, you had a few ideas that you were talking about. Maybe you want to go through them.

[Aaron Hill]

You have to look at specifically what the federal government can do. It has to be in Alaska's best interest to reduce these interception fisheries and put in better management practices, such as counting the fish they're discarding and requiring live release of the non-target species like we do in B.C. We're spending tens of millions of dollars buying out fishing licences in British Columbia as part of the Pacific salmon strategy initiative. A lot of those licences aren't even being fished anymore. I'd argue that it would be potentially as good, or be better use of public money, to offer up the Alaskans a compensation package to move those fisheries out of the interception zones.

There is precedent for that, as I mentioned, with the way that Canada was compensated in 2008 for shutting down our west coast Vancouver Island troll fishery to reduce impacts on Washington and Oregon state populations.

There are other solutions, but I suspect we're running out of time here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes. We've gone a bit over, actually.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are similarities between Atlantic salmon and Pacific salmon. I would have liked to have a little more detail on the obstacles that salmon face at various points in their lives. There are times when they are more vulnerable. We know that Atlantic salmon go from freshwater to salt water and then come back to freshwater.

What's the biggest threat to Pacific salmon at every stage of their lives? Is there a more critical time? How can the department's and scientists' involvement help the salmon at that time?

I don't know who's in the best position to answer that.

[Greg Taylor]

That's a very complex question. It involves an animal that has a life history that spans the far ocean reaches right up into natal rivers 1,000 kilometres upstream from the tidewater. However, one thing we do know is that if you do not get a spawning fish onto the spawning grounds, you don't have a chance to recover these populations or conserve them. The first thing you have to do is make sure the fish get back that are necessary to spawn and conserve a diverse population.

That's the first step. After that, there are many steps, especially in terms of adapting to and mitigating climate change impacts. We need to be investing in this. Canada, unfortunately, does a pretty poor job of managing its salmon populations. A lot of work needs to be done. Canada's failure to manage its stocks properly is why we lost our marine stewardship certification for our salmon industry in British Columbia.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Ms. Barron, please go ahead.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I will pass my time to my colleague from Skeena—Bulkley Valley.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have two and a half minutes, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

There are lots of different groups impacted by this issue in British Columbia. We've heard about the impact on rebuilding salmon stocks. We could talk about the impact on B.C.'s commercial fishery. Of course, there's the sport angling and commercial sport angling aspect of the picture.

I wanted to pick up on what Mr. Hardie was asking about when it comes to indigenous groups and first nations. We had hoped, I believe, to have indigenous witnesses at the committee. Unfortunately, we weren't able to confirm any attendance.

Mr. Taylor, I understand that you work as a consultant with several first nations. I wonder if you could talk about the impact of Alaskan interception on their efforts to rebuild stocks in their territories.