Evidence of meeting #119 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was back.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Arianne Reza  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Mollie Royds  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Dominic Laporte  Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Catherine Poulin  Assistant Deputy Minister, Departmental Oversight Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 119 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, known, of course, as the mighty OGGO.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(c) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, January 18, 2023, the committee resumes its study of federal government consulting contracts awarded to McKinsey & Company.

Before we begin, I will remind all members and other participants in the room of the following important preventative measures to protect our interpreters.

To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in-person participants are reminded to keep their earpieces away from the microphones at all times, as indicated. As per the note from the Speaker to members on Monday, April 29, the following measures are in force.

All earpieces have been replaced by a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black. The old ones are gray. If you have a gray one, please remove it immediately. By default, all unused earpieces are unplugged at the start of every meeting, so you'll need to plug in, please.

When you're not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the middle of the sticker to your right. Consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. The room layout, you've noticed, has been changed to increase the distance between microphones to reduce the chance of feedback from ambient earpieces.

These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and to protect the health and safety of our participants, mostly the interpreters.

Thanks, everyone, for your co-operation.

We will have a vote in about 45 minutes. If I can have unanimous consent, we will continue the meeting up until 10 minutes before the vote starts.

5:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

That's wonderful. At the end of the meeting, the last 20 minutes or so, I need some time for committee business to go over budgets and some other issues that I need to update the committee on.

We have some officials from PSPC back with us today.

Ms. Reza, welcome back. I understand that you have an opening statement for us. Please go ahead for five minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Arianne Reza Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you.

Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that we are gathered today on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin nation.

Joining me today are Dominic Laporte, assistant deputy minister for procurement; Mollie Royds, associate assistant deputy minister for procurement; and Catherine Poulin, assistant deputy minister for departmental oversight.

I want to start by thanking the committee for this opportunity to appear to discuss the procurement ombud report on contracts awarded to McKinsey.

It is important to me as the deputy minister with a key responsibility for procurement to be given the opportunity to comment.

I would also like to thank—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry, but this device is not working for me. I need someone on the technical side to bring me one.

Thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you.

We'll just pause for a moment.

Ms. Reza, you can continue.

5:05 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

It is important to me as the deputy minister with a key responsibility for procurement to be given the opportunity to comment.

I would also like to sincerely thank the procurement ombud and his team for their review of the contracts awarded to McKinsey.

We have carefully considered the entire report—not only the recommendations where Public Service and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, is implicated directly, but all recommendations to consider how we can take a leadership role to further strengthen procurement practices.

By way of context setting, in the midst of increasing public scrutiny and discourse related to procurement practices, the Prime Minister tasked the President of the Treasury Board and the Minister of Public Services and Procurement to undertake a review of contracts awarded to McKinsey and examine if contracting processes complied with Treasury Board policy and departmental internal control frameworks. Shortly thereafter, in February 2023, the Minister of Public Services and Procurement made a further request that the procurement ombud conduct a review of federal contracts awarded to McKinsey.

Consistent with the result of the first review, the procurement ombud found no instances of political interference, no wrongdoing and no fraud. I believe this is important to the committee and to the procurement workforce, who take their stewardship and integrity responsibilities seriously.

The ombud's report looked at 32 contracts with McKinsey. PSPC was the contracting authority responsible for 23. As a result of this review, the ombud made three recommendations directed to PSPC. The department accepts and welcomes the recommendations and is implementing an action plan to further strengthen procurement processes, specifically as it relates to better documentation, among others.

For example, one area of this review relates to the verification of security clearances for resources. I would like to reassure this committee that all the McKinsey resources had the required security level to perform work and to access sensitive information and assets. That being said, the OPO report identifies documentation shortcomings, for example, noting that the security clearance records should also be consistently included in procurement files.

As a result of the report, I've asked security and procurement officials to take a step back to reconsider the existing rationale as to why the security clearance and contract records need to be kept in two physical places, and if this is still relevant as we move to e-procurement.

Turning to examine the procurement instruments that were used for contract award, PSPC took steps in 2021 to establish a national master standing offer as an efficient approach to procure proprietary McKinsey benchmarking services that were in demand from client departments. In total, PSPC issued 19 contracts under the standing offer, which has now expired. The ombud's observations on the standing offer are actively informing the next iteration of instruments related to procuring benchmarking services.

Separate from the findings related to the standing offer, the ombud concluded that—taken collectively—his observations led him to believe there were instances that the procurement processes created a “strong perception of favouritism towards McKinsey”. PSPC has no direct evidence of this. We have responded to the procurement ombud, noting some assumptions and interpretations differ from those made by PSPC. The ombud acknowledged this by including references to our views in his report, which he referenced in his testimony to this committee earlier this week.

In closing, I want to be clear with the committee that as the DM and as senior officials responsible for the procurement function in PSPC, we take to heart the observations and recommendations made by the ombud. We have a responsibility to better understand and address his findings, especially as they relate to ensuring better record keeping and transparency to advance both the process and controls related to procurement.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

We'll start with Mrs. Block for six minutes, please.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Through you to our witnesses, I will be asking questions of Ms. Reza, but if others have the answers, certainly they should feel free to pass those on.

Earlier this year, reports from the Auditor General and the procurement ombudsman on the arrive scam debacle raised serious concerns about contracting, particularly in the sole-sourcing of several contracts.

Today, you're here appearing on the heels of yet another report from the procurement ombud, which raises serious concerns in regard to contracting in relation to McKinsey.

Of deep concern is the OPO's comments regarding the national master standing offer, or NMSO, and that none of the call-ups had any justification for sole-sourcing, yet your department approved them all, shovelling out tens of millions of dollars to this company. Who signed off on these call-ups?

5:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

I'll give some context around the call-ups.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Mr. Chair, I did not ask for context. I asked who signed off on these call-ups.

Who was responsible for signing off?

5:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

The call-ups were mostly signed off at the procurement officer level, with some at the manager level. We can provide the breakdown of the individual....

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Yes, I would like the names. If you could provide that to the committee, I would appreciate that.

When the NMSO for McKinsey's benchmarking services was established, who at PSPC signed off on that?

5:10 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

I believe it was signed off at the ADM level of Procurement. We'll confirm again the names since people have moved between jobs. It was in 2021.

Do you know, Mollie?

5:10 p.m.

Mollie Royds Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

The national master standing offer was established as per our normal protocol for all national master standing offers. A commodity lead was responsible for the approval. In the case of professional services, it was at the executive 2 level. That was the level that approved this national master standing offer.

To go back to the earlier question, there was a sole-source justification in place for the national master standing offer at the time, an integrity check, as well as price support to ensure that the price was fair and reasonable.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Right. I'm looking for names.

5:15 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Mollie Royds

We're happy to provide the name.

I can tell you the level. It was an executive, a senior director in our procurement office.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Procurement Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Mollie Royds

It was in 2021, which was before I was there.

I believe the individual is no longer employed in the department, but I'd be happy to provide the name.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much.

The procurement ombud also found in his review of the McKinsey contracts that PSPC failed to provide a statement of work on the vast majority of call-ups against the standing offer. The ombud said in his report that he could not determine to what extent McKinsey was allowed to define the contract requirements for these departments.

This is exactly the type of thing that happened with GC Strategies in the arrive scam contracts, with your department allowing a private contractor to determine their own scope of work. Why is your department making it a regular practice to allow companies to determine the terms of government contracts they will be awarded?

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

Just to confirm, when a national master standing offer is established for a unique product, such as the benchmarking that McKinsey provided, the statement of work associated with the establishment of that tool has traditionally been the master statement of work that's been used to pull call-ups from underneath it. That was the case from 1995 to about 2021 for all national standing offers of this nature.

In 2021, we took a step back and we decided to add increased scrutiny and documentation around support. By 2022 and 2023, we had added further requirements around the statements of work. The traditional historical piece was to use the statement of work associated with the establishment of the procurement tool, given that it was an individual, unique proprietary service provided to Canada.

May 1st, 2024 / 5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

I am simply going by what the procurement ombud reported on. He questioned the fairness and the transparency with respect to the lack of documentation that was available to determine whether or not McKinsey defined its own scope of work. We'll leave that there. I believe there are questions around fairness and transparency. Those are the procurement ombud's words, not mine.

He also found multiple cases of departments changing procurement strategies to allow for McKinsey's participation. He also found that departments avoided mandatory methods of supply in order to direct contracts to McKinsey. Then he found that departments failed to establish cost estimates before discussions with McKinsey. He found that bids were inappropriately re-evaluated, resulting in McKinsey being the only compliant bidder and being awarded the contract. All of this was under the watchful eye of PSPC.

I believe this is a colossal failure of your department's core purpose. What value does your department offer aside from the rubber-stamping of corrupt procurement practices?

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I'm afraid I have to interrupt because you are past your time. Perhaps we'll get to it in the next round or have it provided in writing.

I will remind everyone—and I know you've been with us before—that our committee has passed a motion that all requests for information are to be returned to us within three weeks.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, I believe you're up.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Reza, in your response, you referred to the national master standing offer and you referenced the years 1995 to 2021. I didn't quite understand the point that you were making. Can you just repeat that and take your time to clarify that?

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Arianne Reza

I was trying to build the context that within procurement we use different methods of supply. There are many of them, and they're competing, and some of them have been long-standing. Some started in 1995. A lot were established in 2005, and the ones that we hear about frequently around information services, like TBIPS and SBIPS, which look at solutions, came along later.

What I was trying to make clear is that for the last 20 years, these have been methods of supply that we looked to modernize and build on, and they have existed in terms of how we deliver procurement. We're constantly looking at how to improve them, but these are not one-offs. They were not created for any specific supplier.

In the case of benchmarking, which is an area the government needs as part of their independent review and their quality assurance, we have four or five vendors that have had similar arrangements. This has all been publicly and transparently posted on government websites for many years. It's something that is not unique; it is well understood.