Evidence of meeting #51 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bdc.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mona Fortier  President of the Treasury Board
Catherine Luelo  Deputy Minister, Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Roch Huppé  Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Isabelle Hudon  President and Chief Executive Officer, Business Development Bank of Canada

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good afternoon, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 51 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, January 18, 2023, the committee is meeting on the study of the federal government consulting contracts awarded to McKinsey & Company.

I understand that we have some online witnesses. I can attest that our clerk has completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

We'll start with an opening statement from the President of the Treasury Board.

Welcome back, Minister. The floor is yours for five minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Mona Fortier President of the Treasury Board

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge that I am speaking from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

With me are senior officials from the Treasury Board of Canada, notably, Roch Huppé, comptroller general of Canada, and Catherine Luelo, chief information officer of Canada.

Service contracts are widely used by governments and private organizations in Canada and around the world. They're generally used to complement the work of Canada's professional public service.

Contractual services may be used to provide specific types of expertise, to deal with unexpected fluctuations in the workload, or to obtain independent opinions pertaining to projects.

Since 2011, spending on professional services as a percentage of total government expenditures has largely remained the same. Compared to spending on the public service, the use of professional services has also remained relatively consistent since 2011.

Every year, there are hundreds of thousands of contracts for everything from pencils and vehicles to professional services. Given this volume, there are controls throughout government, which start in departments and flow all the way up to the Treasury Board depending on value, complexity and risk.

Basically, these control measures are set out in the Treasury Board Directive on the Management of Procurement.

Although the decision to acquire goods and services rests with each deputy minister, the directive spells out the expectations and requirements to ensure that government procurement is equitable, open and transparent.

In each department, a senior official is responsible for procurement. This official establishes, implements and maintains a framework for the processes, systems and controls.

Departments must maintain the integrity of the process and protect it from fraud; define the intended outcomes; get the best value, including a fair price; and ensure what's delivered meets the quality, standards and service levels in the contract. Departments are only authorized to enter into contracts up to specific thresholds. Any contracts that exceed them require Treasury Board approval. Departments and agencies publicly disclose contracts over $10,000. Actual expenditures are reported annually in the public accounts. We have a responsibility, which we take very seriously, to ensure spending remains prudent and delivers results.

Accordingly, at the request of thePrime Minister, Minister Jaczek and I are overseeing a review of all procurements with McKinsey.

TBS is requiring departments' internal audit teams to review their contracts with McKinsey to assess if the contracts complied with Treasury Board policy and departmental internal control frameworks. TBS will review these assessments and undertake corrective actions if there are issues. We are also requesting that Crown corporations, which are not subject to Treasury Board contracting requirements, conduct similar reviews. As an additional level of verification, we have asked the procurement ombudsman to provide a third party assessment of compliance with contracting rules.

Following these reviews, TBS will see if there are opportunities to enhance the directive on the management of procurement—for example, by providing guidance to departments to support procurement decisions—and we look forward to considering any recommendations coming from this committee.

Procurement controls in Canada are administered by dedicated public servants, who have done effective work at various levels of government. However, if improvements are needed, we will have to introduce them.

I'll be happy now to answer any questions committee members may have.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Minister.

We'll start with Ms. Kusie for six minutes, but before we start, colleagues, can we keep an eye on our clocks? I've been cutting off people a lot in the last few meetings. Thanks very much.

Ms. Kusie, you have the floor.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much, President of the Treasury Board, for joining us here again today.

On what date did the Prime Minister approach you to investigate?

4:30 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

It was on January 11, 2023.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you for that clarification.

Are you aware of how much the government has awarded McKinsey & Company in contracts, outside of PSPC?

4:30 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

Currently, if I can.... I have the number here. It's $14.4 million.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

When can we expect your investigation to be complete?

4:30 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

We sent out letters to ministers and departments today. We are expecting to receive some information and to have a report by June 30.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Will you present the findings of your investigation to the committee?

4:30 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

Yes, if I am invited to do so.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

I am quite confident you will be invited.

Are you familiar with the SNC-Lavalin scandal that took place four years ago?

4:30 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

I was in government.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Are you familiar with the WE scandal that took place in government three years ago now, or two and a half years ago?

4:35 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

I was the member of Parliament for Ottawa—Vanier.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

What I'm getting at, President, is this: How do you think we can possibly trust a government that...? I'll also ask this: Are you aware of the ethical breaches of the Prime Minister?

4:35 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

I am, as you are.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Are you aware of the most recent ethical breach of the trade minister?

4:35 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

I am, as you are.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

That's great.

What I'm saying, President, is that I think it's very hard for those of us in the official opposition—and Canadians—to accept the legitimacy of a government that is investigating itself, not only from an ethical standpoint but also from the standpoint of.... The initial number we heard was a double-digit number. Then, we went into the hundreds of millions. The last I heard, we were at $116 million.

I'll ask you this, Minister: How can we trust you to investigate yourself, after so many ethical breaches by your government and the lack of clarity on how much was spent on McKinsey & Company?

4:35 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

First, thank you, everyone, for being here today.

We have a framework to manage our procurement. We have laws, regulations, government-wide policies, directives and guidelines. We also have department policies and guidelines. If I may, I might share a chart with all members that shows that we have those mechanisms in place. We continue to look into them, how we can strengthen them.

Also, I have to say that, in the past few weeks, we've had a chance to start looking into how we will address this. We have internal audit reviews done frequently, and I trust those will be given a chance. We'll look at what we have done, internally. We also know the ombudsman for procurement will have an opportunity to share his recommendations. As we all voted for, the Auditor General will also examine this, if she wishes to look into this, and review the contracts with McKinsey. I also welcome the recommendations of the committee.

I believe Canadians expect our government to have strong procurement policies.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much, Minister.

You've laid it out very clearly, but I think the actions and outcomes speak a lot louder than the chart you presented here, today.

President, are you familiar with the Purdue case and McKinsey's implication in the opioid crisis in the U.S.?

4:35 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

Yes, I have been informed.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Are you aware of the situation with the Saudi Arabian dissidents and McKinsey—how they feel endangered, here in Canada, as a result of McKinsey & Company's implication?

4:35 p.m.

President of the Treasury Board

Mona Fortier

Yes, I have been informed.