Health Committee on May 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I'm sorry. Thank you, Dr. Hopkins.

We'll go to Mrs. Goodridge, please, for five minutes.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being with us and for being patient. It's unfortunate that Chief Frost had to leave us before we got a chance for questions. I found her testimony incredibly insightful.

Dr. Pauly, did the study you cited look at diversion as an issue?

[Dr. Bernadette Pauly]

That's such an important question, because it's definitely the issue that I would say is creating the most controversy.

I will speak to two ways in which.... While the study didn't directly look at diversion—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

It didn't look at diversion.

[Dr. Bernadette Pauly]

No. I will explain—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

It's yes or no. We have very limited time and I asked a very short question. The convention in this committee is that witnesses answer for about the same amount of time that the question took to ask.

Did diversion get looked at?

[Dr. Bernadette Pauly]

Diversion was not apparent, because there was a dose-response relationship. In other words, if people got more days of the medication, there was less risk of overdose, which suggests they were taking their medications.

There was a dose-sensitivity relationship. Higher doses meant less risk.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

[Dr. Bernadette Pauly]

What this led to was people taking their meds in many cases.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Dr. Koivu, I'm sure you've seen the proposals coming out of the city of Toronto asking to move toward decriminalization for that city. Do you think that will have impacts on communities like London?

[Dr. Sharon Koivu]

I think anything that happens in Toronto is definitely going to have an impact on London. What we're seeing in London has been largely affected, I think, by decriminalization as it is.

We're certainly seeing a lot more open drug use. It's very common to see people injecting in parks, smoking fentanyl in parks and injecting Dilaudid in public spaces already, so I think that's something we'll have a problem with.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Really quickly, have you seen a change in the drug deaths in London since the so-called safer supply program came in?

[Dr. Sharon Koivu]

Absolutely.

I don't know how to answer that very quickly, but the first thing I'll say is that in 2016, our overdose deaths were equal to the province's. In 2022, for which we have information, the provincial rates went up by about 2.7% and London's went up almost fourfold. There's a significant increase in overdose deaths compared to the provincial average. There's also a significant increase in overdose deaths compared to the other community I work in just south of there, which had exactly the same rate in 2016 and now continues to be the same as the provincial average.

The other place where I see significant change is in youth. If you look at the youth population—this data is all available on Public Health Ontario's opioid tool—for people 15 to 24, London's rate was lower than the provincial average in 2016 and now it's substantially higher. It's the same with people 25 to 44. When I'm looking at people I would consider young, there has certainly been an increase in deaths.

The other thing is that hydromorphone is absolutely more common. It's twice as common to find hydromorphone in deaths in London than in the provincial average. Often, the provincial averages dilute things. If you go to Ontario, you'll find that where safer supply has been available, there are increases over provincial averages.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I'm now going to move a motion that I put on notice on Friday. It says:

That the committee invite the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions and Associate Minister of Health before the committee for no less than two hours; and that the study of the opioid epidemic and toxic drug crisis in Canada be extended by six meetings to invite further witnesses.

I think it is absolutely incumbent on us, as we've been hearing testimony and seeing the entire situation shift, that we have more witnesses come so we can explore some of the public safety and other aspects that we have not been able to fully explore through this committee. I understand that we've had some conversations about amendments.

With that, I will cede the conversation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mrs. Goodridge.

The motion is in order. The debate is on the motion.

Dr. Ellis has the floor.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I appreciate the comments from my colleague on the need to continue this discussion. It's important that we underline for Canadians the fact that some controversy exists here. Not all of it is based on science and much of it is based on opinion, which is not necessarily helpful when we know there are good scientific-based arguments. Many of my colleagues may not like that those exist, but they do.

It's important to continue on this road to enable this committee to understand that some of the science that has been referenced here does not answer the questions that we need answers to. It's also important to understand that the Government of British Columbia has asked for an end to the decriminalization experiment, which has certainly been outlined by communities such as New Westminster, Richmond, Campbell River, Kamloops and Sicamous. As Canadians hear more and more about the experiment, Canadians are fearful for their own communities. They're fearful for their communities because of contamination from used paraphernalia. They are concerned because of the potential for exposure of drugs to children, and we've heard even to pets in some areas.

The other thing that I've heard directly from Canadians is they are concerned about the loss of accessibility to their downtowns. That's a concern that we heard very clearly from a deputy chief constable in Vancouver, who testified at this committee not that long ago. She made it very clear that the decriminalization experiment has led to the loss of downtowns. Substances are being used outside of businesses, outside of residences, on transit and near schools, parks and beaches. The deputy chief constable's testimony noted that police were powerless to stop this type of activity.

The Minister of Mental Health and Addictions has spoken very forcefully about this in the House of Commons and in the media in attempting to explain away the request by the Government of British Columbia to end the experiment. I find that interesting, because it was the Government of British Columbia that came to the federal government asking for the experiment, but we all know, even though this is not scientific in a sense, that when an experiment is going awry and the people in charge of the experiment say they need to end it, it needs to end. When doing a scientific experiment such as a randomized controlled trial, if the lead investigators understand that something has gone awry, they don't continue the experiment. They stop it, and they don't wait for days and days to stop it. They stop it immediately when those signals are out there.

I'm very disappointed in the NDP-Liberal government, and specifically in the Minister of Mental Health and Addictions. The British Columbia government has asked for the experiment to end, and now there are negotiations with the NDP-Liberal government to continue the experiment. If we want to talk about this and we use the metaphor I used, even though I realize it's not scientific, then we know clearly that the experiment must end now for the betterment of this country, because it's a failed experiment. We've heard that over and over. We know it's a failed experiment. The B.C. government knows it's a failed experiment.

The question that I have—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

—is this: When will the NDP-Liberal government will know it's a failed experiment?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Dr. Ellis, there's a point of order from Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Chair, just for clarification, the B.C. government has not asked to stop decriminalization in British Columbia—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair, but that's not a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Johns. That is not a point of order. It's a question of debate, so I'm going to cut you off there.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Chair, I think it's been ruled by the chair—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

When my colleague wants to have the floor, he can raise his hand and have his turn. He should know that. He's been here long enough. Even though perhaps he is ideologically motivated by his wacko comments, we need to continue on with this.

That being said—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, it is completely unacceptable for a member to be calling another member wacko.