Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 8th, 2024

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Again, the Chiefs of Ontario are saying that the carbon tax is a discriminatory policy. Do you disagree with them?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

First of all, this is a discussion on nutrition north, not the price on pollution—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

At the very least, Minister, would you and your government commit to—

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Time and time again, economists have proven that the price on pollution has minimal effects on food inflation.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

—passing Bill C-234 in its original form to take the carbon tax off farmers and farm families to make food more affordable for all Canadians?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time here.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. We can't hear the interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're having an issue with multiple microphones being on, which creates a problem for everyone to participate.

That's the end of the five minutes.

I'm going to go to Mr. McLeod next. We'll start his five minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us.

It's a very interesting discussion on nutrition north. I've been involved in these discussions for quite a few years. I used to be a minister with the Government of Northwest Territories, and one of my responsibilities was dealing with the transition from food mail to nutrition north. We had many interesting discussions then also.

At that time, the Conservative government was in power, and they were trying to kick all our communities off the list. We have 14 communities now, but at that time it was reduced down to eight. We were struggling to convince the government of the day, the Conservatives, to keep the program and to keep on the list the communities we had that were isolated. It was very challenging. The program was underfunded and didn't have any avenue for input, for advice.

I'm very happy that now we've made some progress. I have a number of communities that probably would not exist if we didn't have this program. There's room for improvement, but the budget has certainly increased significantly, and we have an advisory board that provides advice on the program to you and others.

It's important to recognize that this is an important tool, but it doesn't address the root cause of food insecurity in the north. I think we all need to agree that in order to have healthy and affordable food over the long term, we have to do more. More work has to be done to address the root causes. We need to talk about local food that's harvested within our communities in our regions. We need to talk about climate change. How much bigger can this program get? I have communities that are losing water access and barges that can't get in anymore. Ferries are not going to run. This is all reality. The waters are drying up in our rivers and our lakes.

At the time when we were talking about the new nutrition north program, which is quite a few years ago now, we all assumed that in the Northwest Territories we would have roads to each community and that we would have proper runways. We would have longer runways so that planes could land with a full load of freight, but we're not quite there yet.

I wanted to ask you if that is part of the discussion you have at cabinet and part of the considerations to make the program better when you look at options. Are you talking to other departments? Are you including all of these things to make things better?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

That's a fantastic question, MP McLeod, and I thank you for it.

Food insecurity and food inflation are caused by many different variables. First of all, there's isolation. Isolation is expensive. There are also supply chain unpredictability, transportation issues, lack of infrastructure and, of course, climate change.

I was in Iqaluit a few days ago, with Minister Blair, Minister Joly and the three premiers. Yvonne Jones was there. She's parliamentary secretary to Minister Blair and me. We had some really great discussions on just what you're talking about.

I talked to the premier over breakfast about the Mackenzie Valley Highway and what we need to do to bring it to the next level. It's an incredibly expensive highway to build, but we have to do it, especially with the northern defence money we're going to be rolling out. There's never been a better time to do just that.

That's just one small area of the north, which is massive. We need to invest. I think it's important to point out that we need to invest on many different fronts while enhancing programs like nutrition north in the short term. I agree that it's a short-term band-aid over a problem that we have to get ahead of.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Colleagues, that's the end of the time on that one.

We are at the end of our two hours, but I do want to allow Mr. Lemire and Ms. Idlout to have their two and a half minutes. We're going to move right into it. We'll be tight, and then we'll adjourn.

Go ahead, Mr. Lemire.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I really appreciate the respect shown.

Minister, we've heard from indigenous co-ops about how difficult it is to make ends meet.

I am going to test your willingness to lift just one family out of poverty, as we talked about earlier. I will also test your willingness to think about the seven future generations who will be living in the north and the importance of the relationship that northern communities have with the land. These are the core values of these communities.

Have you looked at setting up refrigerated storage at the ends of the roads, so that food could be transported overland? This is one of the possibilities mentioned by the representative of the Kimik Co-operative. Indeed, it would be important to have access to refrigerated storage sites, particularly along the Billy‑Diamond Highway in Quebec, for example, or near places where fresh food can be brought in.

I think we need to look at the logistics around short distribution channels and the cold chain. Investments in infrastructure could drastically improve the situation and help bring costs down significantly.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Thank you for that good question.

It is essential that we put more effort into building infrastructure and roads in remote communities to ensure that we can provide safe cold storage for food.

I've been to places like Arviat, Nunavut, where they have refrigeration systems underground. We need these kinds of systems everywhere in the far north. There are not enough of them.

However, the solutions will not come from Ottawa. We need partners on the ground, and that's why we're talking—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Since my time is limited, let me give you an example. In Abitibi-Témiscamingue, we have no slaughterhouses, particularly because there are no federal programs to build them. However, we could serve northern communities by road. I'm thinking about Cree communities, and even Inuit communities, to a certain extent, that could be served by air. However, we don't have any slaughterhouses. We have no local production capacity. Our animals have to be trucked to a slaughterhouse eight hours away, which makes no sense.

How can we invest in local infrastructure so as to have the necessary capacity?

I guess I am asking you to commit to talking to your colleague the Minister of Finance to set up such programs.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

It's a real challenge.

Before speaking to the Minister of Finance, you should speak to the minister responsible for the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency, or CanNor, that is to say me. We should have a coffee together to talk about the problems and the solutions.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'd be happy to do that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Ms. Idlout, the floor is yours now for your two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

I'll be asking my questions of Wayne Walsh.

Thank you for appearing.

How many years have you been in this position that you're holding?

[Wayne Walsh, Director General, Northern Strategic Policy Branch, Northern Affairs, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs]

I was appointed to this position in January 2016.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

You've been in charge of the nutrition program since 2016.

[Wayne Walsh]

Among other things, yes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I first saw you in an interview on CBC, when The Fifth Estate interviewed you about the nutrition north program. One of the things mentioned was that—and maybe one of the research projects funded by the nutrition north program found this—only 67¢ on the dollar went toward the subsidy.

Can you provide more information on that finding?

[Wayne Walsh]

The report you're referring to was done by Professor Galloway. I believe it was published in 2018 or 2019. With all academic reports, we look at the findings. There was another report that was recently published by Professor Naylor at the University of Guelph, and his findings were that nearly 100% of the pass-through—it was 97%—went through.

There are obviously some discrepancies between the two reports. We're looking at them and doing the analysis.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

In that same documentary, you were asked about the profits that are being made. You have $119 million in profit, with $67 million going toward subsidizing the North West Company. In your response, you mentioned that it is “up to the consumer to decide if the level of profit is acceptable or not”, because they can choose on their own.

Do you stand by that statement you made on The Fifth Estate?

[Wayne Walsh]

The question that was posed to me was asking my opinion on the level of appropriateness of the profit margins of a particular company. My responsibility under nutrition north is to ensure that the program is delivered, based on the terms and conditions of the program.

The one thing I will add is that we recognize that competition is an issue in many of the communities. That's why we've expanded the program to include active measures like direct ordering, which I believe some of the CEOs referred to this afternoon, as competitors. We have introduced other measures to give those consumers a choice. They're not necessarily just in retail. They could be direct orders. They could be buying clubs. They could be investments they make under the community food fund or—