Evidence of meeting #50 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was georgia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you. Now, we open the floor for questions.
We'll start with Mr. Majumdar. You have the floor for four minutes, please.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Shuv Majumdar Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
I'll start the questions with Ambassador Sabanadze. Thank you for that presentation.
You were the voice of Georgia to the European Union. Do you believe Europe has the strength today to confront Russian interference in Georgia?
5:05 p.m.
Senior Research Fellow, Russia and Eurasia Programme, Chatham House
That's a very good question, and I think that's something the European officials are really struggling with.
What is happening in Georgia is a surprise for Brussels. In fact, it's a surprise to many people, me included, because you are right: I was representing Georgia in Brussels for eight years, and I was doing it under this government. I resigned three years ago when I saw that the direction was changing dramatically.
Georgia, for many in the EU, could have been taken for granted, because Georgia was so determined to join the European Union and NATO. It was ready and did bear costs for it. The 2008 war is just one example.
Therefore, the kind of shift is really extraordinary. It is a dramatic departure from the foreign policy trajectory that Georgia has been pursuing since the restoration of independence.
5:05 p.m.
Senior Research Fellow, Russia and Eurasia Programme, Chatham House
With this pivot and how the EU can deal with it, on the one hand, it has candidate status and it has accession negotiations. It tries now to negotiate and put pressure on the government and say that if they pass this law, they will not move on to another stage. I think this is the only thing the EU can do.
However, the Georgian government propaganda can use this against the EU and say, you see, they are the ones who don't want us. Therefore, it puts the EU in a very difficult position.
May 7th, 2024 / 5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Shuv Majumdar Conservative Calgary Heritage, AB
Thank you very much.
Let me ask a follow-up question, because I think we heard Professor Sahadeo describe how Ivanishvili might react under a variety of scenarios. Assuming that the protesters become increasingly agitated into the summer and create a kind of instability, how do you think Ivanishvili's government would react to them? Would they cross the Rubicon into being violent?
5:10 p.m.
Senior Research Fellow, Russia and Eurasia Programme, Chatham House
I don't know. This is very difficult to predict. What I know is that we are watching almost the same film over and over again. This is not the first time that has happened in Georgia. In fact, in Georgia, the rule is to change the government through street protests rather than through the ballot box.
The last time, with the Rose Revolution, Shevardnadze conceded. Saakashvili conceded too, even though it was a parliamentary kind of loss of power. However, the situation was pretty much pre-revolutionary.
This time, we are very close to this kind of political crisis, and I'm not so sure this government will concede quite so easily. Therefore, I think this is a dangerous moment in Georgia.
You've heard that this is the second time they've brought this law. Backing down a second time is politically more costly than it was the first time, and the protesters are also determined to fight until the very end. Therefore, it is really difficult to foresee who is going to give up first and whether this will become violent.
That is not the plan of the protesters, though. I think people will try to do everything to avoid it, but it can also be provoked. We have seen cases where they sent some provocateurs to beat people up, etc., so every scenario is possible.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you, Ambassador. Thank you, Mr. Majumdar.
Madam Damoff, you have the floor for four minutes, please.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Dembińska, in your opening remarks, you mentioned gay propaganda and talked about LGBTQ2 rights.
You did as well, Mr. Sahadeo.
I'm just wondering if you can elaborate a little on how this law is tied to those rights. You also mentioned same-sex marriage.
5:10 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
I will clarify. Yes, they're two different laws.
The bill on foreign agents is something that is on the table now, but it was also on the table last year. All the issues concerning legislation on LGBTQ+ have also been on the political agenda for some time.
However, what some experts and I observe is that the timing of the proposals to change the legislation on the issues of LGBTQ+ and same-sex marriage right now serves Georgian Dream in trying to divide the opposition in society.
There have been huge protests against the law on foreign agents, and maybe it was a miscalculation by Georgian Dream to put it on the agenda, but putting the laws about LGBTQ+ on the table right now serves to try to divide the opposition. That is because this is something that some portion of Georgian society is receptive to because of the conservative values, the Georgian Orthodox Church and its importance in Georgian society.
As was mentioned, framing them as European values and suggesting that Europeanization comes with these laws and LGBTQ+, etc., is propaganda and serves the purpose of dividing the opposition.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you very much. I don't have much time left, but I'm going to pass it over to my colleague.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you.
I also want to join my colleagues in saluting the courage and convictions of Georgians who have been in the streets over the course of the past month.
I will just ask Professor Sahadeo something. Thank you for coming back. I'm very grateful. Those were very insightful opening remarks.
I was wondering if, in your opinion, the Georgian Dream party is still interested in joining the EU. It's enshrined in its constitution, but I'm somewhat puzzled as to whether or not it's still interested.
5:15 p.m.
Prof. Jeff Sahadeo
I think the answer is no. I think this is why Ivanishvili came out with that speech last week. It was to make that pivot.
Now, his official line is, “Oh, we'll join by 2030, when we can be sure that the EU will allow us to keep our own sovereignty.” To this argument that we need the EU and the EU has these potential cudgels against us, he says, “We have a friend in Hungary, and he'll block anything the EU can do to us. It's better to stay out for now. We'll wait for more Orbáns and more Ficos, and more Melonis in Italy, and then perhaps we'll join.”
I think the answer to that is no—
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Fayçal El-Khoury
Thank you, Professor.
Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, go ahead for four minutes.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witnesses for joining us for this important study.
Ms. Dembińska, the Georgian draft law stipulates that all Georgian media and non-governmental organizations must register as “conductors of the interests of a foreign power” if more than 20% of their annual revenue comes from abroad.
Do you have an idea of the number of media outlets that could be affected in Georgia?
If you can't answer my question, I won't hold it against you.
5:15 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
I can't give you the exact number, so thank you for not holding it against me.
That said, independent media in civil society and non-governmental organizations benefit greatly from the support and funding of other countries, including western countries. There are a lot of independent media, but I put “a lot” in quotation marks because I don't know the exact number. Perhaps the ambassador would be in a better position to answer you. This is a matter of survival for independent media in Georgia.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Ambassador, in the last round of questions, the Orthodox Church was brought up, which piqued my curiosity.
Currently, what are the links between the party in power and the clergy? Are they working hand in hand, or are they operating separately, without interconnection?
5:15 p.m.
Senior Research Fellow, Russia and Eurasia Programme, Chatham House
Yes, there is officially—and constitutionally, of course—a clear separation, but traditionally the Orthodox Church has played a very important role. In general, because it's a national Georgian Orthodox Church, there is a tradition of identifying the role of the church and Christianity with a kind of self-identification in Georgia, because of the region where it is located, that it's just Georgians and Armenians who are Christian nations and so on.
In this particular case, and lately, the church has become very closely linked to the government ruling party. It also has traditionally had strong ties with the Russian Orthodox Church. Even though the Georgian Church is independent, the ties are very strong, and it's definitely a conservative force. It has an influence. The patriarch is considered to be a person that many people respect very much, one of the most respected personalities in Georgia, so the position the church takes vis-à-vis certain issues is quite important.
Normally, they are very conservative. They were against anti-discrimination laws, for instance, that Georgia had to pass in order to get visa liberalization with the EU. They are certainly against LGBTQ+ rights.
In this case, they have been relatively balanced but still supportive of the government position.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I think I have time for one more question.
Ms. Dembińska, you gave us three elements to consider: the content of the draft law, the repression of protests and legislation on LGBTQ+ issues. We understand that all of that is related. The consequences are protests and repression, but fundamentally, what the committee must understand, and what several witnesses have said today, is that the government is trying to create a diversion through legislation that will attack the rights of the LGBTQ+ community in order to pass its draft law on foreign agents.
Do I have a clear understanding of the issues?
5:20 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
The goal is not really to pass the draft law on foreign agents. They have enough votes in Parliament to do that—
5:20 p.m.
Full Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
Okay.
Rather, it is about dividing the opposition, which is already fragmented and very divided. The protests and violence we are seeing in the streets of Tbilisi right now could rally the otherwise fragmented opposition, but legislation on LGBTQ+ issues is being used to try to divide the opposition and prevent that unification.