Official Languages Committee on May 6th, 2024

[Frédéric Lacroix]

This study was later corroborated by the Office québécois de la langue française. The study showed that the theory that people attended anglophone CEGEPs and universities to learn English was completely false. These people attended anglophone CEGEPs and universities to integrate into the anglophone world, thereby opting for a way out of the francophone world. It wasn't about immersing themselves in a language that they hadn't mastered.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Lacroix and Mr. Beaulieu.

We'll finish with the NDP member's six‑minute round of questions.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome the witnesses.

I also want to share my concerns about how my colleague, Mr. Drouin, asked—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Hold on a second, Ms. Ashton. I'll stop the timer, because there's a point of order.

Mr. Godin, the floor is yours.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Sorry to interrupt, Ms. Ashton.

Mr. Chair, I'm looking at the clock and it's 5:28 p.m. We would need the committee's unanimous consent to extend the meeting past 5:30 p.m.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin. I hadn't noticed the time. The committee should indeed end the meeting at 5:30 p.m.

Is there unanimous consent to extend the meeting by no more than four or five minutes? The room is still available.

[Voices]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Good.

Ms. Ashton, I'll start the timer again. Only 18 seconds went by. The floor is yours.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I said, I also want to share my concerns about how my colleague, Mr. Drouin, asked his questions. I think that we all have the right to ask questions, given the topic of this study and the views shared by the Quebec officials regarding francophone post‑secondary institutions in Quebec. These views must be heard, even if we disagree.

Mr. Bourdon, as you know, we've been working hard for quite some time on modernizing the Official Languages Act. How will this modernization help francophone communities set up francophone schools?

[Nicolas Bourdon]

When it comes to Quebec, I think that Mr. Lacroix and I want to convey the same message. We're saying that, by funding anglophone universities and CEGEPs in Quebec, the federal government is unfortunately working against the French language. Mario Beaulieu's study, for example, shows that 95% of the federal money spent in Quebec to protect official languages in minority communities supports projects run by anglophone institutions. We can see that this money is once again strengthening these institutions. Unfortunately, these institutions play a harmful role with regard to French in Quebec. Mr. Lacroix and I wanted to show this.

In terms of the federal legislation, there really should be an asymmetrical vision. English doesn't need help, French does, both in and outside Quebec. I think that you want to move in this direction. You have this principle, but how do you apply this asymmetry? That's the issue.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Okay.

I'm from western Canada. I represent a constituency here in Manitoba that covers two‑thirds of the province.

As you know, we have a vibrant francophone community in Manitoba. However, regardless, the French language is still declining. How can we ensure that francophone universities outside Quebec work more closely with Quebec's post‑secondary institutions?

[Nicolas Bourdon]

I don't know whether Mr. Lacroix wants to answer this question, because my main concern is CEGEPs.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

You can both answer the question from the perspective of CEGEPs and universities.

[Frédéric Lacroix]

I'm not sure whether I can answer this question.

In my opinion, for francophones outside Quebec, institutions must provide full programs “by and for” francophones. I think that this concept is key. Institutions shouldn't simply provide one‑year programs, but full engineering, medical or law programs, for example. Francophone institutions must have strong faculties that lead to well‑paying jobs. Other things are needed too.

This may not answer your question. However, I think that this approach is the right one.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

That's a helpful answer. Other witnesses also spoke about the need to provide university programs of this nature, for example.

Mr. Bourdon, do you have anything to say about CEGEPs?

[Nicolas Bourdon]

I would say more or less the same thing as Mr. Lacroix. In Canada outside Quebec, universities and colleges provide only certain programs in French. These institutions are sometimes fragile and have unfortunately been weakened, particularly in Ontario by the Ford government's budget cuts. Outside Quebec, more investment is definitely needed. Universities and colleges must have the funding needed to provide a full range of programs, including the most coveted programs, such as medicine, engineering and law. That's what I would look for, obviously.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

In this study, we've talked a great deal about the significant role played by international students in our francophone institutions. In your opinion, how can institutions such as CEGEPs and universities establish themselves as international leaders in francophone education?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Ms. Ashton, I'm sorry, but you have gone way over your time. I didn't want to interrupt you. I let you finish your question.

Mr. Lacroix and Mr. Bourdon, you may not be used to this. You may have appeared before, Mr. Lacroix, but you haven't, Mr. Bourdon. The meeting was cut short as a result of the vote. We started again late, and then there were objections, as we heard and as you saw. I ask that you let us know in writing what else you would have wanted to say. We value both your written and oral testimony. Please send the information to the clerk, who will pass it on to everyone.

I would like to briefly take advantage of my privilege as chair to ask you a question about statistics, for the committee's benefit. The question is for Mr. Lacroix, but perhaps Mr. Bourdon can answer it as well.

You said earlier that 35% of federal funding goes to anglophone post‑secondary institutions, compared to 65%, down to 61%, for francophone institutions. I rounded off the figures. How can the numbers be broken down to determine what portion of this funding is tied to official languages? I'm not asking you to do doctoral research. However, if you have the figures, how much of that money is tied to official languages?

Other parts of this funding focus on science and technology. If you have these figures, it would be good to know how federal funding for francophone and anglophone post‑secondary institutions is divided between science and technology programs and official languages programs. Do you understand my question?

[Frédéric Lacroix]

Yes. I understand it.

I don't think that Statistics Canada makes this distinction in its figures. The funding comes from the Canada Foundation for Innovation and the three federal grant funds, in particular in the social sciences and humanities and in science and engineering. However, I don't think that the amounts earmarked for official languages are listed as such. That said, it must be small amounts compared to the funding from other organizations.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you.

Mr. Beaulieu, did you want to comment on this?

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

The amounts referred to by the witnesses aren't the same as the amounts from the official languages or official languages education programs. These are additional amounts.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Okay. This would have to come from the witnesses, because you aren't a witness, Mr. Beaulieu.

Witnesses, if you have any additional information to share with us in writing, again, please don't hesitate to do so. The committee will greatly appreciate it.

Thank you, everyone.

The meeting is adjourned.