Bill C-271 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (tuition credit and education credit)

Income Tax Act

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Madam Speaker, I am very happy to put some comments on the record about Bill C-271, an act to amend the Income Tax Act.

I must applaud the member for Westlock--St. Paul. This very progressive bill has addressed a problem that has been touching on the education of our young people and the lives of our students and music teachers here in Canada. I can tell members from experience that I know well what it is like to have music students come to my home. It is something that I did at one time. I have to say that this private member's bill is long overdue.

First of all, I was appalled at the comments I heard from members on the other side of the House, particularly those from the Liberal Party.

Number one, what was said was that they have no problems with cash credits being given to students who go to formal institutions to get their education, but let me tell members a little about the kind of education that students get from certified music teachers.

A certified music teacher who is giving music lessons out of his or her own home takes the children through grade levels. There are standards. There can be music programs like those from the Royal Conservatory of Music. The music teachers give the lessons. The children do a lot of practice and cannot progress until they actually take the examination at the end of the year. If they pass the examination, they go to the subsequent grade.

This helps a lot of students, particularly students in rural Canada. There are schools of music all over Canada, but I would say that most of them are centred in major cities. Many of our students in our rural areas are at a disadvantage because of the cost of having to leave their homes and get their education elsewhere.

This is about investing in the future of our students. It is lifelong education. Members opposite often talk about lifelong education. Here today we saw a dismal display of the understanding of what education is all about. Clearly, music teachers, 20,000 of them across our country, are watching this and saying, “What are they saying? What are they talking about?” Clearly, there is a high standard of education from certified music teachers.

The downside is the cost to parents. As I say, I applaud the member for Westlock--St. Paul for putting this much needed bill forward because many parents and students cannot afford the cost of extended music lessons. When students go through the public or private school systems, the cost of everyday life is great. The cost of books is great. The cost of education per se is great.

Over and above that, there are a lot of students who would like to become musicians and music teachers. They would like to achieve those kinds of goals. But in actual fact, by the time the cost of the instrument is paid for, whether it is a violin or a piano or another instrument that one wants to play, we find that these are very expensive. Some of them run into hundreds and thousands of dollars.

Qualified music teachers who build a home business of teaching students do much to contribute to the economy in their particular district. What I hear from members opposite is that there are merits in the bill and yet they divorce their support from this bill based on the fact that this is what we call homegrown business. Not only is it homegrown business, but it is formalized education outside the parameters of the bricks and mortars of institutional schools of learning.

Many students have reached very high standards and have gone to Julliard or to extended music schools all over the world. Where did they start? They started at home with a qualified music teacher, teaching them grades 1 through 9 formally, with the counterpoint and the other kinds of educational expertise they have to learn to get to a certain level before they can go further. They have a whole basis of formalized education that opens up a whole new world to them.

I came from a small place in southern Manitoba called Wakopa, a little hamlet, on a farm. My parents never had the kind of money that we needed to get through school. A lot of us took music lessons with the local music teacher.

Members opposite are playing the violin as if this is a story they do not want to hear. However, this is a very serious issue and it is a very progressive bill. I would call on members on all sides of the House to support the bill. It accommodates the education of many students throughout Canada, many students who would otherwise not develop.

Many music students are happy being able to study their music. They are happy to enjoy the music and the development it offers them. Apart from that, it is also a great part of the education of Canadian students. Many students would attest to the fact that. Because of those certified music teachers, their lives have been changed. It has opened up new worlds to them. It has helped them to develop as individuals. It has provided jobs for them.

Having some tax breaks and credits is of paramount importance to the education of our children. Members on all sides of the House have to look carefully at the attributes of music teachers. Music teachers have a one-to-one individualized relationship with their students. That helps the students to have a vision on how they can develop and grow. Once they get their basic music, then they can go on to all sorts of different fields. I know first-hand of students who have taken their basic music degree or music education and then later have gone to higher levels of education.

In some rural areas, as these students get into the higher levels of grades 9 and 10 or into their ARTC music degree, they will teach the beginner students as well.

The bill has a lot of merit. It has a lot to say about understanding the education and lifelong learning of individuals in our nation. We need to build a high standard of education. We need to encourage individuals, no matter what their backgrounds are or how much money they have. We need to give individuals a vision of who they can be. In many places, especially in rural Canada and in our urban areas as well, that certified music teachers provide that opportunity.

We talk about the feel good kind education and the enhancement of the well-being of somebody. However, it also very difficult formalized education. Anyone who has ever studied music would understand that. Anyone who has ever gone through counterpoint would understand the logistics of that kind of education as well.

We need to give a lot of support and credit to the students in our nation and to the 20,000 music teachers who work on a daily basis to help their students reach their highest levels of learning.

Over and above that, across the nation we have festivals where students can compete and understand what it is like to receive an award for their singing or for their playing. Many communities have music festivals that teach other kinds of skills as well, and they have built-in toastmasters.

I fully support Bill C-27. It is an extremely progressive bill that should have been in this House of Commons a long time ago. The Liberal Party has been in power over a decade and this has not come up in the House.

The teachers and the students in music have done very well. If there is anything the government can do to support their lifelong learning, it should be done. I would like to even see some things extended, where the price of instruments, et cetera are also included.

To conclude, the bill would add to the well-being and high educational standards to which every student wants to attribute themselves.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to speak today on Bill C-271, to extend the tuition credit and education credit to individuals who follow a formal course of instruction given by a qualified music teacher.

I want to congratulate the member for Westlock—St. Paul on his bill.

I also want to say that, although they do not get the same media coverage as government bills, many private members' bills have a significant impact on the lives of thousands of people. Bill C-271 is one such example.

As members of the House, it is our privilege to introduce bills. Most of the time, these bills are extremely important to the public. I intend to take advantage of this privilege in due course to benefit my riding and my constituents.

First, I want to say that the Bloc Québécois supports the principle of Bill C-271, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (tuition credit and education credit). This is an important bill because it will allow hundreds of music teachers to issue an income tax receipt to their students. Currently, tuition expenses cannot be claimed for courses provided outside post-secondary institutions, meaning universities and colleges.

Education has always been a priority for the Bloc Québécois, and Bill C-271 moves in that direction. How can we oppose an initiative that will allow more musicians to take upgrading courses by limiting their financial losses? Ultimately, this bill attests to the public's interest in music.

My riding is no exception. For example, in my riding of Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, the Chicoutimi school of music currently boasts 700 students, including some 100 in an integrated arts program. Such an initiative will have a direct impact on the wallets of some parents, who are paying hundreds of dollars a year.

The music field is a major strength of my region and the Saguenay. The many music schools, the Conservatoire de musique de Saguenay, the Festival de musique du Royaume, the Orchestre symphonique du Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean and the Société d'art lyrique, the many choirs and choral competitions are just a few examples of a region that hums to the beat of music.

This bill will be good, therefore, for a region like mine because people who decide to take music courses from a private teacher in order to acquire or perfect skills will be entitled to the same credit as people who go through the traditional education system.

On another note, the Bloc Québécois is concerned about federal government intrusion into an area under Quebec's jurisdiction. As we well know, the federal government has had a bad habit for years now, when it transfers money to the provinces, of dictating and demanding in return certain Canada-wide conditions and standards. We need only think of parental leave and the gas tax.

Quebec has to fight all the time to save and protect its jurisdictions such as health, education, municipalities, and so forth.

As a member of the Standing Committee on Finance, I can attest to that. I just returned from some consultations in Canada in the four western provinces. Also as a member of the Standing Committee on Finance, I have had the opportunity to meet many representatives of organizations that came to testify in committee.

Quite frankly, there are two visions in Canada, two ways of seeing things. In Quebec, we want our jurisdictions protected and respected. Outside Quebec, we see that people or many organizations and association representatives want national standards from sea to sea. Those are the two visions we have in Canada.

That is why we have this concern about the federal government becoming involved or intruding in the responsibilities of Quebec and the provinces. It is important, therefore, for the federal government not to erect any barriers or make any requirements in regard to music diplomas.

I would like to finish my remarks on the Bloc Québécois' support in principle for Bill C-271. In conclusion, I would like to congratulate the member on his initiative with this bill. I would like to ask him to provide a few specifics in regard to the concerns that I just raised, namely the fact that the federal government might be tempted to try to intrude on a jurisdiction belonging to Quebec and the provinces.

[John McKay, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance]

One has to enjoy this position, Madam Speaker, because one hears a lot of ideas, some of which are more commendable than others and in terms of the idea itself, this is not a terrible idea. However, when we begin to unpack it, as I hope to show over the next few minutes, it does not stand the sniff test.

The bill is intended to extend a tuition tax credit and an education tax credit eligibility requirement to include courses of education given by a qualified music teacher. Under the bill instruction provided outside, and this is a critical point, the formal education system by a qualified music teacher would become eligible for the tuition tax credit and education tax credit. The bill also proposes that the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development be given authority to certify music teachers for the purposes of these two tax credits.

The intent of the bill is commendable. Hopefully, it would in fact encourage participation by Canadian students in music and I would not argue with any of the benefits that the hon. member outlined in terms of music lessons and playing music. However, the Government of Canada and in fact all governments have a long standing resistance to extending tax credits and deductions, and things such as that to what are essentially personal enrichment exercises. As I said in my question, if it is not music then it must be dance and if it is not dance then it must be some other cultural activity, whether it is art or something of that nature. If it is not a cultural activity, then why could it not be a sport activity?

Any of us who are parents are spending considerable sums of money on the enrichment of our own children, however, we do not spend that money with the anticipation that somehow or another the government should share in that enrichment exercise.

Since 2001 almost $740 million has been provided in all aspects of the creative process by encouraging excellence among Canada's artists, promoting arts and culture among the population as a whole. In budget 2005 we put in new funding in the amount of $860 million which is to take that initiative from 2005 to 2010.

I would like to discuss the tax measures that the bill proposes to amend. Tuition and education tax credits are the principle measures through which the federal income tax system recognizes the cost of post-secondary education and occupational training. As we will see, the tax assistance is quite generous. In 2005 alone, it is estimated the education related tax measures will reduce taxes paid by students and supporting persons by approximately $1.5 billion which represents 45% of direct federal assistance to individuals for post-secondary education and occupational training.

These tax measures include: a tax credit for tuition fees in excess of $100, an education credit based on an amount of $400 for each month of full time attendance or $120 for each month of part time attendance, provided in recognition of non-tuition costs of post-secondary education or occupational training, for example, the cost of textbooks, supplies or tutoring.

When a student has insufficient income to take full advantage of the education and tuition tax credits, unused amounts can be transferred up to a maximum of $5,000 per individual. Students can carry this forward indefinitely. The first $3,000 of bursary and scholarship income received by students is tax exempt. Graduating students can benefit from a tax credit or interest paid on Canada student loans comparable to provincial government student loans programs.

Within this extensive tax support, the tax credits recognize that students pursuing post-secondary education or occupational training invest in their education to increase their future earnings. These two tax credits are available to all students enrolled in post-secondary education including music students, provided those courses are taken at a university, a college or CGEP, or any other post-secondary institution, or an educational institution providing non-university courses that furnish or improve that person's occupational skills, provided the institution is certified by the minister.

I must stress that as long as a music student is within the educational system as such, be it a university, college or a CEGEP, or as long as that student is taking these courses and expending these moneys for the purposes of improving an occupational skill, the government is there to support them. However, if the student is taking a course that is outside of those parameters and it is simply for personal enrichment, then the government does not support activities that are personally enriching. Otherwise, as I said, there would be no end to the requests on the part of taxpayers to support their particular personal enrichment.

Well over 4,500 of these institutions across the country have received certification. These privately run institutions offer training in areas that include informatics, business and management skills, piloting, and of course, music lessons.

We can see that the Income Tax Act already includes provisions to ensure that students who take music courses at a recognized institution outside of a university or college, with the hope of pursuing a career in music, can claim tuition and education tax credits.

The Income Tax Act already includes provisions that ensure that schools that provide music lessons outside the formal post-secondary education system can in fact issue tax receipts for the tuition credit, provided these courses or lessons are aimed again at improving occupational skills. These schools again must be certified by the minister.

I hope members will agree that the post-secondary music courses and training are already more than adequately recognized under the Income Tax Act, both from the viewpoint of the student and from the viewpoint of music schools and music teachers that operate outside the formal education system.

If the intent of Bill C-271 is to ensure that post-secondary music training is recognized for tax purposes, then the proposed amendments are superfluous and should be rejected by the House. However, if the intent behind Bill C-271 is to extend tax recognition to all music courses taken by all Canadians, then the bill raises some very serious fairness issues.

Indeed, it is a matter of principle that the Canadian income tax system should not recognize discretionary personal expenses.

As previously stated, the tuition and education tax credits have a specific purpose, namely, to recognize costs incurred by students in post-secondary education or occupational training. Extending those two credits to all music students, regardless of why they take their lessons, would significantly change the nature of those two credits from recognizing education related expenses to recognizing expenses related to music courses taken for personal enjoyment or personal development of the individual.

There is no doubt about the value of taking lessons in music, dance, art or whatever. That is not the argument here. There is no rationale from a tax policy perspective to provide a tax credit to Canadians in recognition of the costs of music lessons if they are only for the purpose of personal enjoyment.

I hope that over the previous few minutes I have made the distinction that if a student is there to improve his or her occupational qualifications, the government is with the student. If a student is there to pursue post-secondary education, the government is with the student. However, if the person is there merely to enrich his or her own personal development, then frankly that should be done at the person's own expense.

There is also no reason to provide tax relief for music students and not for other individual personal development. As I have said, we could outline all the other areas of personal development that Canadians may wish to pursue, but not necessarily claim tax credits, including such things as dance lessons, sporting activities and memberships in any number of local clubs and the like.

I hope I have persuaded members over the course of these last few minutes that this bill should fail for the reasons outlined above. The government is there to support people who are pursuing occupational qualifications or post-secondary qualifications. However, the area of personal development is not one which the government or the taxpayer for that matter should be asked to support.

[Ted Menzies, Conservative, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to stand this evening and support a private member's bill put forward by my colleague who, unfortunately, is unable to be here. The hon. member for Westlock--St. Paul has put a tremendous amount of effort into the proposed legislation and it is most unfortunate that his health will not allow him to be here to actually speak to this tonight. Therefore I will attempt to fill that spot.

Bill C-271 is an act to amend the Income Tax Act to do with tuition credits and education credits. It amends the act by extending the tuition credit and education credit to individuals who follow a formal course of instruction given by a qualified music teacher for students 16 years of age and older.

At first blush, one might say that this is a bit of a narrow focus but when we do the research on this, as my hon. colleague has, we find that it is a very important issue. Many studies have been done on the value of this sort of encouragement for further education specifically in this field of music.

Bill C-271 would level the playing field for students who wish to pursue music education and also for the music teachers industry. In doing the research we find that it is quite a large industry. A good number of individuals are involved in this.

A constituent of mine provided me with some information on this. There are currently 20,000 private music teachers in this country with an average studio size of 15 to 20 persons per week. We are talking about potentially 400,000 people, so it is much larger than at first might be suggested.

I would remind the House that constituents in my riding of Macleod are impacted by this and concerned enough about it that they have written letters to me and I am sure other members of the House have received those sorts of requests for us to give serious consideration to the bill.

The Income Tax Act currently allows for a tax deduction for individuals who are enrolled in an education institution that is certified by the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development to be providing courses, other than those designed for a university credit, that furnishes a person with skills for or improves a persons skills in an occupation.

Bill C-271 would extend this same tax deduction to individuals pursuing an accreditation in music from a qualified music teacher, and that is an important part of this. It is only from qualified music teachers.

The formula for calculating the tuition credit and education credit for students pursuing an accreditation in music, as provided in Bill C-271, is simply the same formula that is used to calculate the standing current tuition credit and education credit for students who are already enrolled in post-secondary education.

This of course is certainly under the certification of the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development and provides courses other than those designed for university credits and it furnishes a person with skills for or improves a persons skills in an occupation.

Bill C-271 has several accountability measures that are very important to the Conservatives in the House because we are always concerned about accountability. We have seen such a lack of it in the House and in the government that accountability is very important. We do not support anything that does not bring accountability into it.

This accountability measure would protect against tax fraud, which also is important. Individuals can only claim a tax deduction for music lessons if they are enrolled in a course of instruction that leads to a diploma. There is an end to this that has to culminate in a diploma before any tax credits are allowable.

The course must be given by a person who is certified by the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development to be a qualified music teacher and is in the business of giving music instruction. It is very specific in the accreditation of the teachers and of the roles of the students.

In addition, individuals must prove their enrolment by filing a certificate issued by the qualified music teacher with the government. We are never too excited when we see more government interference but if we are going to provide accountability then this is a necessity in this case.

Bill C-271 sets out criteria for the Minister of Human Resource Development to apply when determining eligibility for qualified music teachers. Under the bill, the minister must certify any person who holds an associate or licensed diploma in music, teaching or as a solo performer and that is granted by a designated educational institution, holds a bachelor of music degree or higher in instrumental music, voice or theory, or is a member of a provincial music teachers association.

I am sure a lot of members of the House are not aware that there are provincial music teachers associations. In fact, the author of the bill has consulted very closely with these music teachers associations to ensure they are i comfortable with this and understand all the implications. They were all very supportive of it and are looking forward to seeing it happen.

The Conservative Party believes in greater accessibility to education by eliminating as many barriers to post-secondary education as possible. The transfer will be distributed to provinces and territories on the basis of the numbers of enrolled students. We believe strongly that provincial jurisdiction must be respected. I am sure there will be some people who would suggest that certainly this is provincial jurisdiction but it is important to remember the overarching role of the federal government in this. It does have to play a role in addressing tuition and standards.

Analysis conducted by the Library of Parliament suggests that the costs associated with the bill would be negligible. It makes everyone on this side of the House quite happy when we can actually accomplish something without a burden on the taxpayers.

In addition, the cost to the treasury of extending the tuition credit, an education credit to individuals who follow a formal course, would be partially offset by the tax collected from the music teaching business as a result of increased enrolment. That is a strong argument for supporting this because not only will it encourage students to further their educations but it will expand on an already existing and vibrant music industry. We all know that it will help make the world a much happier place if we have more people who actually know how to play musical instruments.

I would take myself as the exception because I am not much good at playing any instrument but I envy those who can and, especially for those who have the talent, we need to provide them with the opportunity to take part in this at a reasonable cost. We also need to encourage those teachers to continue their business. Lots of these teachers have had wonderful careers in the music industry and can impart some good information, knowledge and advice to the students. Any way we can encourage that I think would be great.

This would create greater access to an alternative form of education. Not everyone fits in the mould like we all think they should. I know some very talented young people who would benefit if we were to extend the tuition credit and the education credit.

We must also be aware that Bill C-271 is a job-creating bill. It is designed to help the students but it is also designed to help the teachers. It would serve to not only create more and better paying careers for music teachers as a result of increased enrolment but it would also provide individuals who receive music accreditation with better paying careers. Hopefully it would increase their musical talents or at least help them to take advantage of that.

The music teaching industry has started a letter writing campaign in support of this legislation. I am sure that hon. members have been aware of this and I certainly hope have answered in the affirmative that they are going to support this bill. The Conservative Party believes that greater access to education is an essential component to creating a more productive economy.

Further to that, I might remind the House that it was only a few weeks ago that our leader actually put forward a very positive education proposal to help those who are not necessarily going to pursue a university education. We very much require more tradespeople. We will never see a more glaring example than in my province of Alberta. We are so short of labour in Alberta right now, with the booming oil industry, that we cannot find enough tradespeople to build the facilities that we need to help produce the oil and gas that heats the homes all across this country and also in the United States of course.

We are very much encouraged with the support we have of continuing the unfettered flow of oil and gas across the border, much to the surprise of some of the members opposite who might suggest we use that as a tool. That cannot happen. It is not a federal jurisdiction. We do not want to see that happen.

I am getting a little off topic. The issue is that it is not only the music industry that can benefit from looking outside the box. Not everyone needs a university education. Our leader put forward ideas to encourage tradespeople by helping them buy their equipment, encourage instructors to add to their programs to help students get the required trades skills that will be needed in the future, and to encourage the industries to develop apprenticeship programs. This bill very much fits into the mindset that the Conservatives have of encouraging education not only for youth, 16 and older, but for all those interested in contributing in other than just university roles.

Canada is very rich in musical talent and I envy people from the Maritimes. They seem to have much more talent. Albertans seem to be quite talented at extracting oil and gas from the earth, but we see the talents that the folks have in Atlantic Canada. Maybe we can teach more of these young Atlantic Canadians and they can impart some of their talent on those of us in western Canada. That is not to say we do not have a lot of talent in that part of the country.

I found some other interesting notes that I would like to share with the House. According to a benchmark study done for the Coalition for Music Education in Canada, funding for music programs is not keeping pace with demand and, hence, the need for this new piece of legislation. Quebec and Ontario have seen the largest decrease in the size of music programs, and time and financial resources are the biggest impediment to implementing these programs.

Other studies have found that the benefits of musical instruments are numerous other than giving us a lot of entertainment value. We all enjoy listening to those who are talented. Students involved in music programs actually show an increase in their IQ. I will not go into any further comments about how much music is needed in the House, but I think we all know that it would certainly help.

Music increases SATs, and the ability for students to retain more knowledge. It lowers their stress levels and increases their enjoyment of school, and goodness knows we could use more of that.

I will wrap up by quoting a researcher from the University of California in Irvine which stated:

Taking piano lessons improves specific math skills in elementary school children, according to a study by UC Irvine researchers. Piano instruction is believed to enhance the brain's “hard-wiring” for temporal reasoning the ability to visualize and transform objects in space and time. Music specifically helps with fractions and proportional math.

I support this bill and urge my hon. colleagues to do the same.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

Pursuant to order made earlier today, the motion for second reading and reference to the Standing Committee on Finance of Bill C-271, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (tuition credit and education credit) is deemed moved by the hon. member for Westlock--St. Paul and seconded by the hon. member for Cariboo—Prince George.

[Dave Chatters, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

moved that Bill C-271, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (tuition credit and education credit), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, there have been consultations between all parties and I think you would find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:

That, when private members' business is called later today, the motion for second reading and reference to the Standing Committee on Finance of Bill C-271, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (tuition credit and education credit), be deemed moved by the member for Westlock—St. Paul and seconded by the member for Cariboo—Prince George.

For clarification, the sponsor of the motion, the member for Westlock—St. Paul, would retain the right to speak again for not more than five minutes at the conclusion of the second hour of debate or earlier if no other member rises in debate pursuant to Standing Order 95(1).

[Dave Chatters, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-271, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (tuition credit and education credit).

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to reintroduce a bill that I introduced in the previous Parliament. After consulting with the Alberta music teachers association and the Canadian music teachers association, it is an honour for me to re-introduce my private member's bill which seeks to amend the Income Tax Act by extending tuition credit and education credit to individuals who follow a formal course of instruction provided by a qualified music instructor.

At the present time, music instructors who do not teach in recognized institutions of higher learning are ineligible to provide their students with this benefit, despite the fact that their training could be the same or more advanced than an instructor in an institution. Certainly, the greater benefit to students is no less whether or not they are enrolled in a recognized institution.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)