Not Criminally Responsible Reform Act

An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder)

This bill was last introduced in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session, which ended in September 2013.

Sponsor

Rob Nicholson  Conservative

Status

Second reading (Senate), as of June 18, 2013
(This bill did not become law.)

Summary

This is from the published bill. The Library of Parliament often publishes better independent summaries.

This enactment amends the mental disorder regime in the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act to specify that the paramount consideration in the decision-making process is the safety of the public and to create a scheme for finding that certain persons who have been found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder are high-risk accused. It also enhances the involvement of victims in the regime and makes procedural and technical amendments.

Elsewhere

All sorts of information on this bill is available at LEGISinfo, an excellent resource from the Library of Parliament. You can also read the full text of the bill.

Votes

June 18, 2013 Passed That, in relation to Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder), not more than five further hours shall be allotted to the consideration of the third reading stage of the Bill; and that, at the expiry of the five hours provided for the consideration of the third reading stage of the said Bill, any proceedings before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the purpose of this Order, and, in turn, every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the Bill shall be put forthwith and successively, without further debate or amendment.
May 28, 2013 Passed That the Bill be now read a second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.
May 27, 2013 Passed That, in relation to Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder), not more than five further hours shall be allotted to the consideration at second reading stage of the Bill; and that, at the expiry of the five hours provided for the consideration of the second reading stage of the said Bill, any proceedings before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the purpose of this Order, and, in turn, every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the Bill shall be put forthwith and successively, without further debate or amendment.

Not Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

March 1st, 2013 / 10:05 a.m.
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Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

moved that Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to speak to Bill C-54, the not criminally responsible reform act. The government introduced the bill because we want to ensure that public safety and the needs of victims receive the appropriate emphasis in the Criminal Code mental disorder regime. The mental disorder regime is the part of the Criminal Code that deals with accused persons who are found unfit to stand trial or not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder.

Before I describe what is in the bill, I would like to mention what is not proposed by the bill. First, the proposed reforms do not seek to impose penal consequences on people who have been found by the courts to be not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. The bill is grounded on the need to protect the public from accused persons who pose a danger to society. This public safety objective forms the basis of the existing federal legislative regime on mental disorders and provides the justification for the proposed reforms as well.

Second, nothing in the bill would impact a mentally disordered accused's access to mental health treatment. It is well known that an increasing number of people who have become involved in the criminal justice system have mental health issues. These individuals pose unique challenges for police, courts and correctional officials. The government is committed to addressing the challenges posed by mental illness in the criminal justice system, and we have already made significant investments to improve the way offenders with mental health needs are managed. However, that is not the focus of the bill.

The not criminally responsible reform act does not apply to all individuals in the criminal justice system who have a mental illness. Rather, the bill focuses strictly on those who come within the purview of the Criminal Code's mental disorder regime and the corresponding provisions of the National Defence Act that deal with mentally disordered accused who are tried by a court. The mental disorder regime in both statutes applies only to individuals who have been found unfit to stand trial or not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. Individuals who have a mental illness but have not been found unfit or not criminally responsible are dealt with in the traditional criminal justice system.

To better understand exactly who is captured by the bill, it is important to understand the concepts of unfit to stand trial and not criminally responsible. Unfit to stand trial and not criminally responsible are two distinct concepts in criminal law. The question of whether an accused is fit to stand trial can arise at any stage of the proceedings before a verdict is rendered. If an accused has been charged with a criminal offence but is unable, due to a mental disorder, to understand the nature or possible consequences of the trial proceedings or to communicate with a lawyer, then the court will make an order declaring the accused to be unfit to stand trial. Usually treatment will be administered so that the person becomes fit and is able to be tried, but until a person becomes fit to stand trial, he or she is dealt with under the mental disorder regime.

The question of whether or not an accused is criminally responsible for the offence charged focuses on the mental state of the accused at the time of the alleged offence. An accused may be found not criminally responsible due to a mental disorder if at the time of the alleged offence the person lacked the capacity to either appreciate what he or she did or to know that it was wrong.

Not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder was formerly referred to as not guilty by reason of insanity. The finding of not criminally responsible is neither a conviction nor an acquittal; it is a special verdict. Since a person found not criminally responsible is not convicted, the person is not punished or sentenced. Instead, the person is referred to the provincially established tribunal known as the review board, which is tasked with making decisions about the monitoring and supervision of mentally disordered accused persons.

Following a finding of unfit to stand trial or not criminally responsible, accused persons are subject to the mental disorder regime and are subject to the restrictions necessary to protect the public.

The Criminal Code sets out the review board's powers with respect to decision-making as well as various procedural and administrative provisions with respect to the holding of hearings, appeals, ordering of assessments, et cetera.

In determining which of the available orders should be made regarding a mentally disordered accused, the review board must take into account four factors: the need to protect the public; the mental condition of the accused; the reintegration of the accused into society; and the other needs of the accused.

Bill C-54, which is before the House, has three main components. First, it seeks to ensure that public safety is the paramount consideration when decisions are made about not criminally responsible and unfit accused. Second, it creates a new high-risk, not criminally responsible accused designation. Third, it enhances victim safety and victim involvement in the mental disorder regime.

With respect to the role of public safety in the review board decision-making process, Bill C-54 clarifies that public safety is the paramount consideration in the decision-making process. As I just mentioned, the current approach is to balance four factors, of which public safety is one. The approach in the not criminally responsible reform act is to ensure that public safety is at the forefront of decision-making. In addition to clarifying that public safety is the paramount consideration, our legislation would also codify the meaning of the term “significant threat to the safety of the public”. This is the test used to determine whether or not a review board should continue to supervise a not criminally responsible accused.

Some provinces have indicated that review boards are interpreting this test too narrowly. To ensure consistent application across the country, our bill would codify the meaning of “significant threat to the safety of the public” consistent with the way it was interpreted by the Supreme Court of Canada. It would clarify that the review board can continue to impose restrictions on a not criminally responsible accused who risks committing further criminal acts, even though he or she does not pose a threat of violence per se. For example, if the board is concerned about a not criminally responsible accused committing thefts or break-ins, it would be able to maintain jurisdiction over him or her and impose the necessary and appropriate conditions.

I would like to turn to one of the key features of Bill C-54. The bill proposes a new scheme that would permit the courts to designate certain non-criminally responsible accused as high risk. This high-risk accused designation would ensure that a person so designated would be held in custody and could not be considered for release by the review board until the designation was revoked by the court. A person found by the court to be a high-risk accused would not be entitled to unescorted passes into the community.

The high-risk not criminally responsible accused scheme would apply to the small number of accused who have been found not criminally responsible and who pose a higher threat to public safety. The scheme would permit a prosecutor to apply to the court for a designation when certain criteria were met.

First, it is important to note that the high-risk not criminally responsible scheme would apply to those found not criminally responsible. It would not apply to those who are found unfit to stand trial. The reason for this distinction is that an unfit accused has not yet been tried for the offence. It has not been proven that the person committed the acts that form the basis of the offence charged.

Further, if a person were not fit to stand trial, the person would also not be fit to participate in a hearing to determine whether he or she should be designated as a high-risk accused. If the accused is eventually tried and found to be not criminally responsible, he or she could at that point be subject to a high-risk designation, if the criteria were met.

Second, the high-risk designation process could only be launched with respect to a criminally responsible accused who was over the age of 18 years at the time of the offence. This is because the provisions of the Youth Criminal Justice Act already provide public protection from youth who are found to be not criminally responsible by, for example, the imposition of an intensive rehabilitative custody supervision order on young people with mental health issues who have committed serious or violent offences.

Third, the accused must have been found not criminally responsible for a serious personal injury offence. The existing mental disorder regime in the Criminal Code defines a serious personal injury as an indictable offence involving the use or attempted use of violence, conduct endangering life and a number of sexual offences listed in the Criminal Code.

If these criteria were met, the Crown could apply to the court for a finding of not criminally responsible if the accused was high risk. If the Crown made the application, the court would hold a hearing to determine the level of risk posed by the accused.

The court would make the finding that a non-criminally responsible accused was high risk in two circumstances. The first circumstance would be if the court was satisfied that there was a substantial likelihood that the accused would commit violence that could endanger the life or safety of another person. This is a higher level of risk than is currently required to maintain jurisdiction over a not criminally responsible accused, which is a significant threat to the safety of the public. In order to justify the increased restrictions on the high-risk, not criminally responsible accused, the higher threshold of “substantial likelihood” is used in the legislation.

The second circumstance when a court could make the high-risk designation would be if the court were of the opinion that the acts in question were of such a brutal nature as to indicate a risk of grave harm to the public.

Although the level of risk posed by a high-risk, not criminally responsible accused designated under this category would be lower than in the first circumstance, the nature of the actions that resulted in a serious personal injury that formed the basis for the application would point to the need for increased protection and restrictions.

The result of a high-risk designation would be that the accused would have to be detained in a hospital. The review board would not have the discretion to order an absolute or conditional discharge. Also, the high-risk accused would not be permitted to be absent from the hospital except for medical reasons or for any reason that was necessary for treatment. The absence would require an escort and a structured plan that had been put in place to address any risk related to the leave.

Generally, mentally disordered accused persons have their cases reviewed on an annual basis, but they may be extended up to two years in certain circumstances. Our bill would provide review boards with the discretion to extend the period between reviews to up to three years if the mentally disordered accused was found to be a high-risk, not criminally responsible accused.

The high-risk designation could only be revoked by a superior court of criminal jurisdiction. If, at a review hearing for a high-risk accused the review board is of the opinion that there was no longer a substantial likelihood that the accused would commit violence that could endanger the life or safety of another person, it could recommend to the court that the high-risk designation be revoked. If and when the review board made this recommendation, the court would have to hold a revocation hearing. After considering all the evidence, the court would determine whether there is no longer a substantial likelihood that the accused would commit violence that could endanger the life or safety of another person. If so, the court could revoke the high-risk finding.

However, the revocation would not result in an automatic discharge of the accused. Instead, the accused would be dealt with as a regular not criminally responsible accused and would be supervised by the review board until the person no longer posed a significant threat to the safety of the public, at which time he or she could be discharged.

The third component of the not criminally responsible reform act are provisions that enhance victim safety and victim involvement in the mental disorder regime.

Victims have raised concerns that their safety was not specifically being taken into consideration by review boards when decisions were being made.Victims also expressed concern that they had no way of knowing if and when a not criminally responsible accused was going to be discharged into the community. Victims would like an opportunity to have concerns with respect to their safety taken into consideration, and where necessary and appropriate, addressed in the conditions of discharge. Bill C-54 addresses these issues.

First, the bill would explicitly require that the safety of the victim be considered by courts and review boards when they make decisions with respect to persons found unfit and not criminally responsible.

Second, the bill would require the review board to notify the victim, upon request, if the accused person is to be released into the community. The amendment to make victim notification available upon request is a necessary component of this new notice requirement, as some victims do not want to be kept apprised of the release of an accused and may find notification to be an unwelcome reminder of the offence.

A third element intended to enhance victim safety is the specific power provided to review boards to order non-communication orders between mentally disordered accused and the victim. There is also a provision to specifically enable the review board to prohibit the accused from going to a specific place. The Criminal Code already provides such safeguards in the bail context. We think it makes sense to also include these powers in the proposed mental disorder regime reforms so they would also be available to review boards.

Finally, the bill would remedy a procedural matter raised in the 2012 decision of the Court of Appeal for Ontario. In the Kobzar case, the court struck down the provision that provides for an automatic suspension of an absolute discharge immediately following a crown notice of appeal. The proposed reforms would replace the automatic suspension of an absolute discharge with a discretionary suspension, if the judge is satisfied that the mental condition of the accused justifies the suspension and the appeal.

I have had the opportunity to discuss a number of these issues with my provincial and territorial counterparts. In fact, a number of them wrote to me about concerns they have, including the need to ensure that public safety is the paramount consideration in the decision-making process. I can confirm that my provincial and territorial counterparts support the idea of expressly making public safety paramount.

In closing, I think the bill effectively balances the right of the public to be adequately protected when mentally disordered accused persons pose a danger to society, with the rights of the unfit and not criminally responsible accused to be treated fairly and appropriately. I urge all members to support this important piece of legislation.

Not Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

March 1st, 2013 / 10:20 a.m.
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NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his speech. I would like to ask him two questions.

First, is public safety not already a consideration of the courts and boards? Is that not the case already? If it is, this bill is somewhat redundant.

Second, many people are interested in another issue. Could the statistics minister tell the members of the House how many people who have been found not criminally responsible have gone on to reoffend and commit heinous crimes? We might be interested in seeing how many of these people became repeat offenders.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:20 a.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to answer both of those questions.

The hon. member is correct, in part, that the protection of the public is a consideration of provincial review boards. However, it is one of four considerations that the board has. We are taking the protection of the public, one of those four considerations, and saying that it is the paramount consideration. They are to take into consideration the protection of the public as number one, and then the other considerations. It is not one of four, but the paramount consideration. This is a substantial change.

There are statistics, and I would be glad to share the report with the hon. member. Here are some of the interesting facts about those who are not criminally responsible. A little over 27% of individuals found not criminally responsible have had a past finding of not criminally responsible; 38% of those found not criminally responsible and accused of a sex offence had at least one prior NCR finding; 27% of those accused of attempted murder had at least one NCR finding; and, 19% of those accused of murder or homicide had at least one prior finding of not criminally responsible.

Those are statistics and findings that have been researched. I would be pleased, of course, to share this with the hon. member in more detail.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:20 a.m.
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Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Mr. Speaker, many of our bills focus directly on the rights of victims. Our government is moving closer to recognizing that victims are an important part of the Canadian justice system, and we want to make sure they are adequately protected.

I am wondering if the minister could talk about what the bill would do in terms of taking care of and protecting victims, and maybe what he has heard victims say about this legislation.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:20 a.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for Yukon for his interest in all our reforms in the criminal justice area. I certainly appreciate the support he has given to this particular piece of legislation, and the other pieces of legislation that we have presented to Parliament.

This legislation has been well received by victims groups across this country. I have spoken with victims groups and individuals who have been victimized by people who have been found not criminally responsible. I very much appreciate how supportive they have been in speaking out on the measures contained in the bill.

As I indicated in my opening remarks, this is one of the three major components of the bill to better protect victims. The bill would ensure that when victims want to be notified that, for instance, an individual is going to be released, they will get that notification. Members are familiar with the Criminal Code provisions with respect to bail and the ability of the courts to impose certain conditions on an individual on bail in terms of staying away from the alleged victim. To extend those to the review board is only reasonable, so that individuals being released can have conditions put on them that take into consideration where the victim lives and goes to work or school. That will play a part in the conditions that are placed upon them.

Again, that is one of the three major components, and one of the ones I am most proud of in the bill.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:25 a.m.
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NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in my speech, we agree with the intent of the legislation. There are likely some important discussions to be had in committee.

I would like to ask the Minister of Justice about administration. The proposed measure will increase costs for the provinces, which are responsible for administering justice. Judging by what we hear from the justice department, the provinces will not be compensated.

Can the minister confirm that the provinces will not receive compensation for the additional costs that will be imposed on them for the administration of justice? Have there been negotiations and discussions with the provinces about that?

We were deeply troubled by that issue in the case of other bills, such as Bill C-10. I would like to know if that is the case for this bill.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:25 a.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, for the most part, the administration of justice within our Constitution comes within provincial jurisdiction, and it is very clear with respect to the issue we are discussing today. Those provincial boards are set up and administered by the provinces. This is part of the constitutional division of powers between the two levels of government. As I indicated in my comments, a number of provincial attorneys general have written to ask me to have a look at this area and make sure that protecting the public is paramount. We are, in one sense, responding to the concerns that are out there.

I just mentioned to the member for Yukon what victims are telling me. However, I do not want to leave the impression that those who are looking to have this area reformed are confined to victims groups, though we consider them very important. I was pleased at the response I received from my provincial and territorial counterparts. A number of them have come out publicly to talk about this. Certainly, they have made that point to me. We are very pleased to co-operate with them in our level of responsibility and within our constitutional jurisdictions.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:25 a.m.
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Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Mr. Speaker, both my colleague and I are lawyers. As lawyers, we need to strike a balance between reason and compassion.

I very much prize the clarity by the minister and the government in balancing those things. I wonder if the minister might elaborate on the question of compassion, not just to victims, but others who are implicated in the types of crimes we are talking about. If there is a comment that puts the minister and the government in a good light, it is that we hit the equilibrium in the right place. There is clarity about the criteria, and there is still an emphasis on compassion, certainly to victims and maybe to others.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:30 a.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada takes the whole issue of mental health very seriously. We have invested over $376 million in mental health research. We have increased health transfers to the provinces to help them meet their responsibilities in this area. My colleague, the Minister of Public Safety, would say that we have invested over $90 million in helping the individuals who are in federal custody with mental health problems. We all have a stake in making sure these individuals get the treatment and the help they need.

Indeed, even within this bill on the high-risk category, the individuals we are talking about who pose a risk to the public are also a risk to themselves. They are not helping themselves if they are back out on the street. It is important to realize that this strikes a very appropriate balance. We want to help victims. Ultimately, we want these individuals to get the help and treatment they need.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:30 a.m.
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NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House to speak to Bill C-54, the Not Criminally Responsible Reform Act.

The minister often introduces bills based on newspaper headlines, and I have often criticized this way of doing things.

We are all well aware of which incidents served as the basis for Bill C-54. For Quebeckers, it was the Turcotte case, and for western Canadians, it was the case of the individual with serious mental problems who decapitated passengers on a Greyhound bus.

All of these incidents can be described as gruesome. I am not saying that the media like to report on these sorts of events; however, these events do give the media graphic video images that are not always nice to see but that make it easy to stoke public opinion.

Before we begin examining Bill C-54, we must understand what this bill refers to. We are talking about people who will be found not criminally responsible because of mental problems. We cannot look at the provisions of Bill C-54 without looking at section 16 of the Criminal Code, which deals with mental disorders.

Section 16(1) of the Criminal Code reads as follows:

16. (1) No person is criminally responsible for an act committed or an omission made while suffering from a mental disorder that rendered the person incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the act or omission or of knowing that it was wrong.

I would like to simplify this provision so that those listening to us will understand. This means that people who, because of a mental disorder, are unable to appreciate the quality of the act they have committed, whether it be murder or another type of assault, will not be found criminally responsible.

However, the Criminal Code presumes that every person is of sound mind, even though one sometimes has to wonder about that. Seriously though, the Criminal Code presumes that individuals are of sound mind.

Section 16(2) of the Criminal Code reads as follows:

(2) Every person is presumed not to suffer from a mental disorder so as to be exempt from criminal responsibility by virtue of subsection (1), until the contrary is proved on the balance of probabilities.

That is the problem in some cases. Dr. Turcotte’s case received a lot of media coverage in Quebec. People followed the trial with great interest because they wondered how such an intellectual man, a doctor, could have killed his children in the wake of a family break-up, of separation and divorce. When people do not follow the trial and do not understand the kind of evidence required, their imaginations get the better of them.

According to the Criminal Code, the burden of proof that an accused was suffering from a mental disorder so as to be exempt from criminal responsibility is on the party that raises the issue and must be proven on the balance of probabilities. The concept of mental disorder is very often the biggest part of the problem. It is not always very easy to prove.

I believe that background is important and that we should recall some previous decisions of the House. In 2002, the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights tabled a report on the Criminal Code provisions on mental disorders.

After the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights tabled its report, the government decided to retain the current wording of the definition of the mental disorder defence under section 16 of the Criminal Code and the definition of “mental disorder” set out in section 2 of the Code.

Section 2 of the Criminal Code is still as important as it was then and provides that “mental disorder” is defined as “a disease of the mind”. It is up to the trial judge, not the jury, to rule on what constitutes a disease of the mind or a mental disorder.

Some people believe that juries determine that. They think that juries are not equipped to make that kind of legal finding, and they are right. That is why it is up to the trial judge to determine whether it has been proven on a balance of probabilities that the person had a mental disorder.

That definition has remained the same since the Supreme Court of Canada rendered its decision in R. v. Cooper in 1980.

A disease of the mind embraces any illness, disorder or abnormal condition that impairs the human mind and its functioning, excluding, however, self-induced states caused by alcohol or drugs as well as transitory mental states such as hysteria and concussion. In order to support a defence of insanity, the disease must, of course, be of such intensity as to render the accused incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the violent act or of knowing it was wrong.

So the test is quite rigorous. Mental disorder must be proven on a balance of probabilities. Those who have followed what is going on in criminal law or who have taken an interest in the matter and have followed trials in which such defences have been raised know that evidence cannot be provided by just anyone. It may be based on the facts so as to prove a certain type of behaviour, but the finding or establishment of scientific or psychiatric evidence is done by expert witnesses.

Incidentally, and here I am thinking out loud, it might be interesting to see how the assessments are designed. The trial judge assesses the independent status of the expert summoned by the defence or by the Crown and determines what kind of evidence was presented. That is part of the trial. Where the individual is found not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder, it follows that he or she will be taken into the system to receive care.

I encourage people to read the February 2013 issue of the Barreau du Québec's Journal du Barreau. On page 8, they will find a column by the eminent lawyer Jean-Claude Hébert on criminal non-responsibility, mental disorder, prisoners and patients. When the public looks at these cases, they sometimes think they make no sense. The crime in itself is terrible; it gives us the shivers and makes us question human nature. Then we hear that the person was incapable of criminal intent to commit the murders in question because he or she suffered from a serious mental disorder. I do not mean a minor bout of hysteria because the person was in a bad mood. It takes much more than that. We heard some incredible things during all those trials which were often amplified by some of the media because that increases circulation or makes for good phone-in shows. When I hosted a radio phone-in show, I heard about cases that made people wonder what was going on with the justice system.

Our role as politicians and legislators is not to inflame the debate based on hearsay or statements we cannot really prove. Mr. Hébert touches on the extremely relevant point on whether we are talking about prisoners or patients. Here we are clearly talking about patients. These are people who have been acknowledged as suffering from a serious mental disorder. So if we think the verdict is wrong, Mr. Speaker, there is a solution. You know it as well as I since you are a distinguished jurist.

In the circumstances, if we are not satisfied, that means we can appeal the decision. And if the reported facts are accurate, I believe the Turcotte decision is under appeal. However, if the diagnosis and the judge's decision on the matter were well-established on a balance of probabilities, as provided for by subsection 16(2) of the Criminal Code, as I said earlier, the Court of Appeal will confirm the judge's decision. Otherwise, it will overturn it and rule that the person may not use that defence. It will tell the individual that he or she was aware, was not suffering from a serious mental disorder and, in the circumstances, may not be considered not criminally responsible.

However, we are not at that point. We are dealing with cases in which the individual actually has a serious mental illness and is taken into care by the state. Another system enters into play, therefore. That is what Bill C-54 is trying to do.

I have heard some more incredible things about this. First this was announced by the Conservative government more than three times: first, by the Minister of Justice himself, second, by Senator Boisvenu and, third, by the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages, and then by the Prime Minister. We have heard all kinds of things.

After listening to the press conferences, I was eager to read the bill, since it seemed to solve all the problems for victims and all the problems of repeat offenders. I would also add, as an aside, that I am very eager to see the minister’s statistics.

Again, I really urge my colleagues to go and read the vaunted report I was talking about. It is the government’s response, so it is not just the recommendations made by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, it is the committee’s recommendations and the government’s response to those recommendations. That report shows the low percentage of people who are found not criminally responsible, with all due respect to the Boisvenus of the world who think there are tonnes of them. There are not tonnes.

It is true that the percentage has risen over the years. However, and this is what it does not say, before 1991, if I recall correctly, when the amendment was made to the Criminal Code, the term was changed from “not guilty by reason of insanity” to “not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder”. At that point, summary conviction offences were also added, and this resulted in a lot of cases that had not been covered previously.

Obviously that had an impact on the statistics. According to the government’s responses, we are talking about a tiny percentage of cases where the individuals were found to be not criminally responsible. Of that minute number of repeat offenders, the minister talked about 28% of them who may have already committed an offence. The entire issue is now whether they had committed serious crimes when they had a mental disorder.

You know, as do I, that statistics can be made to say just about anything. So we have to look at this kind of case and stop playing the game that some of the media play. These are not subjects that should be played with to inflame the population. On the contrary, what is really happening has to be explained. We are dealing with something that no one in this House is familiar with, unless perhaps a psychiatrist was elected in the 2011 election, but I doubt that. Unless you are a mental health professional, these are cases that are sometimes incomprehensible in terms of the evidence involved.

I was working in radio at the time, and I recall a crime in my region. A woman had killed her husband, and there was some question of the whole issue of battered wife syndrome. Some absolutely unbelievable discussions ensued. People were surprised that someone could be acquitted of murder because of battered wife syndrome. The person in question was able to leave her home and function. It was proven that very serious mental disorders could arise out of that syndrome. Today, not as many questions are being asked about that syndrome. Things like that need to be toned down.

And so after listening to the press conferences, I thought that the Conservatives were going to delve into the concept from A to Z. The actual statistics show that there may be some exceptional cases in the system, but we must not throw the baby out with the bathwater every time there is a big headline in the newspapers, so they can take it out and about in the ridings.

It is so popular to say that the Conservatives are listening to people, that the issue is complicated, that they have done something, that they will be getting tough on people with mental disorders to make sure that they stay inside at least until they find it is reasonable to let them out.

I look forward to seeing what is going to happen in committee. My colleague from Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques very subtly announced that we were going to pass this bill at second reading. It is the sort of issue that deserves this kind of treatment. We always want to try to get rid of the irritants in the legal system for the victims, who are shortchanged in the legal system. They really are and I agree 100%. I do not think the victims will be treated properly with the band-aid solutions that we are getting from this government.

During the press conference given by the Minister of Justice, which Mr. Kennedy attended, Mr. Kennedy said he appreciated the efforts, but that we must not forget that victims must be cared for and given help. This is not what we are seeing in Bill C-54. A clause was added where they can, if they ask, draft something in writing. One of the victims who was with the Prime Minister said that she was unable to write. She said that she was still too close to the whole thing to be able to talk about what happened and so on.

This is not what we are hearing at the Standing Committee on Justice. What we are hearing is that when they are in the system and the trial begins, they become witnesses just like all the other witnesses. They are often treated with even less respect than witnesses in civil and commercial cases. Deals are reached between the Crown and the defence. Then, all we see is someone who is wondering what is happening; the case is closed. Why? Because there has been a deal between the Crown and the defence. I would not call that putting the victims first.

This is what I have been trying to say right from the start. If the government really wants to change things and give the impression that it is taking care of the victims, it has to stop coming up with band-aid solutions. They look okay but they do not do very much.

It is difficult to be against motherhood and apple pie. So when we hear that special care will be taken when a high-risk person is involved, I would like to send out a note of caution to the people of Quebec and people in other regions who have gone through this kind of thing. They may have been witnesses, through the media, to certain events. Will the bill ensure that someone like Dr. Turcotte would be considered high risk? This is certainly not the case when I take a look at the definitions in Bill C-54. It does not seem to come under any of the criteria at all.

I am not clairvoyant, but we have to admit that past behaviour is often a predictor of future behaviour. I can just see the senator touring all around Quebec and parts of Canada and telling people that they listened and solved the problem. I say that is not the case. The title of the bill indicates that this is a reform. The minister may be right in saying that it is a major change because he has made this criterion the most important one of all. Except that was already the case in the courts. The courts repeatedly said that public safety was the most important criterion.

Do the Conservatives really believe that a court or a commission would not consider the risk to public safety before releasing a person who was found not criminally responsible for a horrible crime? Do they take the people who sit on commissions or on the benches for idiots? If the answer is yes—that is the impression we sometimes have—they should have made the entire exercise mandatory. What did they do instead? They made it optional. The Conservatives should stop saying that they are not satisfied with the courts and give them the authority to go out and see what is happening.

I will have a lot more to say about this in committee. This time, I hope the minister comes armed with statistics instead of empty talking points. I hope he brings the studies prepared by his department on the bill's constitutionality and compliance with the charter. I can see us keeping someone in prison who will file a writ of habeas corpus. I really do not want to hear that kind of debate.

For all these reasons, we will support the bill at second reading. However, we need to study the bill in detail because we do not want to have more victims. The Conservatives cannot say that punishing someone who is considered ill is a kind of victimization. In this case, all that can be done is to help them heal.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:50 a.m.
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Conservative

John Weston Conservative West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite cares deeply about this issue. It is a great pleasure to hear her speak so passionately. According to world-renowned philosopher Plato, reason is above passion.

I would like to ask the member two questions. We can see that logic and reason play a huge role in this bill. There is an analysis of the criteria we want to use when making decisions about the people being discussed today.

The minister emphasizes public safety. Among the four criteria presented, public safety is the first one we will base our decisions on.

What could be more important than keeping the public safe? What could possibly matter more than the safety of a community when we make decisions about the people we are discussing today?

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:50 a.m.
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NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

I temper my passion with reason, Mr. Speaker. I have scrutinized each and every clause of the bill. I will always react passionately, however, when someone attempts to tell us something is there that is not.

First off, both those questions have very simple answers. Public safety and protecting the public are a priority for Conservatives and New Democrats alike. Not once have I stated otherwise. I wish they would stop insulting our intelligence by saying the system never fails, however. To err is human. I agree that we should strive to reduce the possibility of error.

We have case law. As every lawyer in the House knows full well, whoever pleads their case in court must base their arguments on different aspects of the law, namely legislation, case law and doctrine. Those three things make up our legal system and ensure rule of law in Canada. Case law has already established that a judge must always consider public safety and protection of the public above all when deciding whether or not to release someone.

Is that rule consistently applied? That is another matter. Legislating more consistent application will not necessarily make it so. A judge or board will still be able to argue that, given the facts of the case, there is no threat to public safety, which does not necessarily mean something will not happen six weeks or six months down the line. There are never any guarantees when dealing with human beings.

This is why I object to these false prophets who walk around claiming to solve all the world's problems when, in fact, they have not done squat.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:55 a.m.
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Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I sincerely thank the justice critic for the official opposition for her interesting, thoughtful and important speech.

In this case, the key issues relate to human rights and people suffering from mental illness. This is somewhat different from criminality, since it is a health issue. We need to strike a balance between protecting public interest, which is very important, and protecting human rights.

If we were to imagine a system that would, at the same time, protect the rights of ill people and protect society against violence, what would the best possible system look like?

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:55 a.m.
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NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a perfect answer to this question. It is the question that we must always ask and to which we must always try to find the most specific answers. We also have to give the people who are in a much better position than we are in this House the tools they need to solve this problem.

I have a great deal of respect for psychiatrists and all those who work in the mental health field. Unfortunately, here in Canada, they often get less than their due. Even my Conservative colleagues have to admit it. It is something that we are not used to dealing with and that we really do not understand.

I will never be able to repeat it enough: the danger with this bill is that we are making Canadians believe that the people who committed these offences are not patients, but prisoners. They are not criminals like Bernardo, for example, or like someone who coldly and with no regard for other people’s lives decided to commit unspeakable crimes. We have examples of this, here.

In this bill, we are talking about serious mental disorders. I cannot say it often enough: if we are not happy with the verdicts, we should discuss the verdicts. If we are reasonably satisfied with the verdicts, they have not been appealed and they are final decisions, the person is taken into care. What I think is that the system requires greater investment in protecting mental health. We have to be reasonably satisfied that the people in question are being well treated. However, it would be very sad to let people believe that we live in a society that is full of people who have been recognized as not criminally responsible because of mental illness and who are walking around in the open.

On the other hand, we have to ensure that these people and the victims are up to speed. There are some good elements in this bill, as I said in my speech. I just do not like how the stage is set, sometimes, because it takes some of the credibility away from the bill, with the kind of political speeches we are hearing about something as serious as mental disorders.

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March 1st, 2013 / 10:55 a.m.
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NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

We must now proceed to statements by members. There will be time for one more question after oral question period.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder) be read the second time and referred to a committee.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:15 p.m.
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Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Speaker, I rise to address Bill C-54, the not criminally responsible reform act, which would change how the Canadian justice system deals with accused found not criminally responsible, or NCR, on account of mental disorder.

It may seem like déjà vu for some that I am speaking again on this issue. As minister of justice and attorney general of Canada, I stood in this place to introduce the legislation that reformed this system, legislation, I might add, that passed with the support of all parties in 2005 and that has stood the test for the last eight years and more.

Throughout that debate, and the discussion thus far on Bill C-54, I have come to appreciate that members of the House have a clear compassion and concern for all innocent victims of violence and their loved ones, that we all seek to protect public safety, and that we agree on the need to support victims and victims families. Guaranteeing their well-being, as I said on the occasion of the introduction of my legislation regarding reforms to the mental disorder regime in 2005, is of primary importance in our justice system. It is precisely for that reason, as minister of justice, that I enacted measures allowing victims to provide impact statements at review board hearings for NCR accused. We should not think that the matters are being established or initiated for the first time now.

I was proud of the legislation that we introduced on NCR accused because it adopted an evidence-based approach and incorporated the guidance of the Supreme Court of Canada, the expertise of justice and health professionals and reports of standing committees of the House on this matter. Regrettably, the same cannot be said of the bill before us. In the matter of Bill C-54, the government's approach and rhetoric appear to be grounded more in fear and stigma than in the facts and evidence.

I will begin my remarks, therefore, with an overview of the available data about NCR accused. I will then share my specific concerns regarding this legislation while suggesting alternative measures that would likely prove more effective at preventing violence by people with mental disorders and hence better protect public safety, let alone having less victims. Finally, I will discuss how the bill fits a pattern of Conservative justice legislation that focuses excessively on the addition of punitive measures to the Criminal Code, on a punitive rather than preventive perspective.

Let me begin by reminding us all of the scope of the bill. NCR accused are neither found guilty nor innocent.

As the Supreme Court explains, this regime “supplements the traditional guilt-innocence dichotomy of the criminal law with a new alternative for NCR accused--an alternative of...assessment to determine whether the person poses a continuing threat to society coupled with an emphasis on providing opportunities to receive appropriate treatment.”

NCR accused account for less than 1% of accused persons annually. In evaluating the NCR regime and determining whether reform is needed, it is important to keep these facts in mind, yet on the day the bill was tabled, the former Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and currently the Associate Minister of National Defence appeared on CBC and said with respect to the recidivism rate of NCR accused, “I'm not aware that there are any particular statistics available on that. I'm not sure that this is what it's all about.”

This is a particularly puzzling statement, given that the Supreme Court, in the case from which I just cited, Winko v. British Columbia, found that “Research shows that NCR accused are no more likely than their convicted counterparts to commit any offence, let alone a violent offence, upon release”. While that particular case is from 1999, more recent statistics are available, but they are not favourable to the government's case.

That statement by the parliamentary secretary was in essence an admission that the government has eschewed empirical evidence in the drafting of the bill, which aims expressly to make it more difficult to release NCR accused in the name of public safety, yet if legislation is to protect the public against a particular threat, information regarding the extent of that threat is fundamental. Otherwise we are legislating based on myth, gut instinct and stereotyping, which the NCR regime sought specifically to guard against with respect to the mentally ill.

The data to which we do not have access—and I have submitted an order paper question in this regard that I hope will receive a full response in the near future—indicate that very few mentally ill people commit violent acts, even fewer are found not criminally responsible and only a minuscule percentage of those found to be NCR reoffend after treatment.

To begin with, according to researchers from McGill University and Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières, 90% of people with mental illness are non-violent. Moreover, a report prepared for the Department of Justice shows that in 2004, the last year studied, only 0.18% of all criminal cases resulted in a finding that the accused was either NCR or unfit to stand trial for reasons of mental incapacity. Finally, a Canadian study from 2003 puts the recidivism rate for people who have been found NCR, treated and released at just 7.5%. By contrast, those who are not NCR and have served in federal prisons have a reconviction rate of over 40%.

I realize I am using many numbers here, but I do not want there to be any confusion. This bill is dealing with less than 10% of a population that is already less than 1% of all those criminally accused in Canada. One would think that for all the hype over this legislation that it would be targeting a large group of Canadians, not less than one-tenth of a percent.

There is no doubt that the rarity of the occurrence is of little importance to those who are victimized and the horror that they have experienced, and certain efforts to refine our NCR regime may well be worthwhile. In fact, Bill C-54 does contain some measures that are reasonable and worthy of support, such as keeping victims families better informed and prohibiting perpetrators from contacting victims after their release. However the government's overstatement of the problem and the heavy-handed response to it risks doing more harm than good.

This brings me to the second part of my remarks, in which I will discuss specific concerns about Bill C-54 and particular aspects of the bill that may have unintended negative consequences. To begin with, Bill C-54 would allow certain NCR accused to be designated high-risk, not by mental health experts, but by criminal courts. This designation would devolve subsequent decision-making authority regarding the accused from specialized review boards to criminal courts, once again despite the fact that general criminal courts lack the requisite expertise to make determinations about the risks posed by a person with mental illness.

The government is proposing this change without offering any evidence that review boards have failed to protect the public from a dangerous NCR accused. Indeed, under the current system, review boards do not release NCR accused who continue to pose a threat, something that appears to be ignored by the government in its deliberations thus far.

The high-risk designation, combined with tripling the time period between reviews from one year to three, may cause NCR inmates to remain in custody long after successful treatment. Such an outcome would be unacceptable, given that, as the Supreme Court has stressed, NCR accused have not been convicted of a crime. Indeed, as the court has stated, “the NCR accused is to be treated with the utmost dignity and afforded the utmost liberty compatible with his or her situation. The NCR accused is not to be punished, nor is the NCR accused to languish in custody...”.

Accordingly, Bill C-54 could lead to charter claims with respect to the section 7 right to life, liberty and security of person; the section 9 guarantee that everyone has the right to not be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned; and we could see section 15 challenges, as there is prohibition against discrimination on the basis of mental disability. Yet again, the government is seeking to enact legislation that will invite protracted, expensive and avoidable constitutional litigation. May I add parenthetically that, ever the optimist, I await the minister's report of charter inconsistency pursuant to section 4.1 of the Department of Justice Act.

Beyond the litigation risk, detaining more NCR accused for longer periods of time gives rise to the very practical problem of where these individuals will reside while in treatment. For this reason, I have asked the government for details about the capacity of the mental health institutions in which NCR accused are placed, and about any plans to increase that capacity, as well as any analysis that has been performed on Bill C-54's potential consequences in this regard.

It is by no means clear that our system is at present capable of dealing with greater numbers of NCR accused who are institutionalized for longer periods of time, and we risk complicating their recovery by straining the resources of the institutions and the individuals who are treated. That potential strain and resulting decrease in the effectiveness of such institutions, combined with the possibility that NCR accused could be detained for years even after successful treatment, might mean that mentally ill accused will be less likely to plead NCR as a result of this bill.

We would therefore find ourselves with even more mentally ill people in our prison system.

I am sure that I do not have to remind members of the tragic consequences of housing people with mental disorders in prison rather than in medical facilities. There are consequences for the inmates, as was demonstrated by the heart-wrenching videos of Ashley Smith, and there are consequences for public safety, which the government says is the primary concern that underpins the bill.

When mentally ill people are returned untreated into society after servicing a prison sentence, they pose a far greater danger than NCR accused who have been treated by medical professionals and evaluated by experts. For this reason, I introduced an amendment to last year's omnibus crime bill that would have allowed offenders to receive mental health treatment prior to incarceration, as is already done in cases of drug addiction. Regrettably, the Conservatives rejected this amendment.

Yet the best way of minimizing the potential that someone with a mental illness will commit a violent act, and therefore the best way of protecting the public, which appears to be the objective, as stated by the government, of this legislation, is to ensure effective treatment for the mentally ill.

This brings me to the next section of my remarks, in which I will discuss ways of minimizing the risk of violence by the mentally ill without resorting to punitive, counterproductive and constitutionally suspect measures, which underpin this legislation.

Parliament must encourage and facilitate timely and effective treatment, not only for NCR accused but especially for people in the early stages of mental illness whose conditions can be treated effectively. Indeed, according to the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, the key is early identification, intervention and treatment. To that end, we could train people who work with youth to recognize the initial symptoms of psychosis, since many psychoses develop in adolescence. We could help expand the reach of first episode psychosis clinics, institutions specifically designed to help young patients and their families deal with mental illness in its early stages.

Sadly, however, too many people wait years before receiving treatment, sometimes because their symptoms go unrecognized, and often because they fear the stigma associated with mental disease. It is therefore vital for parliamentarians to set the example by combating that stigma through our words and deeds.

Earlier this month, the members for Toronto Centre and Oak Ridges—Markham encouraged Canadians to openly discuss mental illness, emphasizing that there is no shame in having a mental disease and that recovery is possible. This is the attitude that must underpin our approach to all matters of mental health, including evaluation and refinement of the NCR regime.

However, through its rhetoric and approach to Bill C-54, the government has cast NCR accused as irredeemably violent and has contributed to the impression that Canadians have much to fear from the mentally ill. By overstating the problem of violence by people with mental illness and by understating or ignoring the potential effectiveness of treatment, the government adds to the stigmatization that so many Canadians are working so hard to undo.

As the bill goes forward, I call upon members to engage in the legitimate debate about the particulars of our NCR regime without ceding to stigma and stereotype.

I will use the remainder of my time to take a step back and view the legislation before us as it fits into the overall Conservative justice agenda.

With Bill C-54, the government would continue a pattern of focusing almost exclusively on criminal punishment, behaving as though incarceration is the only tool at the justice minister's disposal and criminal law the only legal domain over which Parliament exercises authority.

Given the rhetoric about the necessity of such reforms, one could be forgiven for mistakenly assuming that Canada is overrun with dangerous criminals and violent psychopaths terrorizing our country unimpeded. The truth of the matter is that the government's rather myopic focus on criminal law and its overemphasis on punishment, as opposed to prevention and rehabilitation, not only undermines its own efforts to promote public safety but prejudices the many other aspects of the justice agenda that are being overlooked.

For example, legal aid is woefully underfunded in this country, and the government has yet to commit to a comprehensive and sustainable civil as well as criminal legal aid program. Moreover, when it comes to judicial appointments, diversity on the bench is seemingly not a priority. Indeed, the only statistics the federal government keeps with respect to such appointments is in regard to gender, ignoring the diversity imperative that the judiciary reflect the populace, with representatives from different ethnic and religious groups.

Canada has also missed the opportunity to use the 30th anniversary of the charter to share our significant and storied legal expertise with judiciaries in developing countries. The government marked this anniversary only by releasing factually questionable press releases that seemed to highlight the Bill of Rights, which, ironically, Bill C-54 may also infringe. Instead, the government should have celebrated what legal scholars around the world have lauded as a landmark document and should have committed to public legal education, domestic law reform and international law-building.

The government could also recommit to wrongful conviction review, increase funding for the war crimes and crimes against humanity program or introduce legislation, oft promised, to allow random roadside breath testing.

I realize it may seem as though I have strayed somewhat from the subject before us, but perhaps it bears pointing out to the government the reality that more Canadians will die at the hands of drunk drivers annually than will die at the hands of NCR accused. Where is the legislation for those victims? Where is the focus on what is a criminal justice issue, where the government has real preventive powers? Bill C-54 demonstrates clearly the government's failure to prioritize and to consider the evidence before it.

This is but one example. In the aftermath of the Idle No More movement, which may have temporarily quieted down but has by no means disappeared—nor should it—now would be the ideal time for the government to commit to an aboriginal justice strategy, ensuring that indigenous legal traditions have their proper place before our courts.

There are also changes needed in the areas of statutory interpretation, alternative dispute resolution, consolidation of statutes, restorative justice and treaty reform, among many others, yet the government persists with a justice agenda limited almost entirely to criminal law, using as justification the odd high-profile case as opposed to empirical data. The bill before us today fits this unfortunate pattern.

As I mentioned, I have submitted an order paper question asking for evidence that would demonstrate the need for a bill like this one. I am open to any possibility that the government will table statistics and analysis that does just that. However, for the moment, the available research indicates the opposite, suggesting that recidivism rates are low, that review boards are thorough, and indeed, that mental illnesses are treatable and ought to be treated as a means of preventing crime.

I have no trouble understanding the fear and frustration many Canadians feel when certain NCR accused are returned to society, and I appreciate the horror victims have felt in this regard and the trauma that has thereby been experienced. However, we will never protect the public by letting fear outweigh facts as a basis for legislation or by having a punitive approach overtake the need for prevention.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:30 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, I gather the Liberals will oppose the bill. Since the Conservatives have a majority, however, it will surely pass at second reading.

I would like the Liberal member to describe the amendments his party would like to include in the bill in committee.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:30 p.m.
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Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Speaker, first off, I would like to say that I have not decided that we will oppose the bill. What I said is that, as it stands, the bill is not evidence-based.

We are currently quite troubled by the bill and we intend to propose amendments in committee. They may deal with victims' rights, for instance. As I said in my speech, we support some of the measures in the bill that deal with victim protection. That said, we will propose amendments in order to strengthen the protection of victims and the public.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Mount Royal for his presentation, and of course, for his particular expertise, since he was the Minister of Justice who first brought in the not criminally responsible regime eight years ago.

Of course, it is difficult to imagine the hypothetical of having the evidence we need to look at the situation. However, it seems to me, and this is somewhat intuitive, that if we had the evidence we need, we would find that the larger part of the problem is our failure to deal with mental health issues in a comprehensive way, through society, to ensure the prevention of violent acts by the very small minority of people with mental illness issues who find themselves then committing violent crimes. We recognize that this is a tiny proportion of all those with mental health issues, but when it occurs, of course it is devastating.

Would it not, on the evidence, make more sense to address our attention to preventing these rare occurrences from ever happening rather than to trying to keep those few people in jail indefinitely and finding fault with a system that we have no evidence is failing?

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would agree. The whole approach of this legislation regrettably fits a pattern whereby one addresses the issue through the lens of punishment rather than through the lens of prevention. Since we are dealing, in particular, with the issue of the mentally disordered, this becomes crucial in terms of approaches with regard to prevention.

Again, I regret that when I submitted amendments on Bill C-10 that would have addressed the approach to the mentally ill through treatment rather than incarceration and through prevention rather than punishment, they were rejected by the government, although they were designed for the sole purpose of simply improving that which the government was ostensibly concerned with in Bill C-10, and that was the promotion and protection of public safety.

Through prevention we would, in fact, end up protecting public safety, ensuring that there are fewer victims, better treating offenders with respect to their reintegration into society, and treating those, particularly in the NCR regime, who are not regarded as offenders and have not been deemed criminally responsible with the appropriate approach.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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NDP

Tarik Brahmi NDP Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened very closely to my Liberal colleague's speech. As a lawyer and a law professor, he is able to share his knowledge and expertise with us.

Unlike the member for Gatineau, who had the floor earlier today, he did not address section 16, which authorizes a court to deem someone not criminally responsible. I would like his views on that issue.

Currently, section 16 is about whether or not a person can tell right from wrong. Does my colleague believe the bill we have before us can address the issue of people who are charged with a criminal offence who invoke section 16 despite being fully able to tell right from wrong?

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his question.

I listened to the member for Gatineau and, in general, I concur with what she said.

I would also like to quote the Supreme Court of Canada in its decision about the principles in this issue. The ruling states:

Treatment, not incarceration, is necessary to stabilize the mental condition of a dangerous NCR accused and reduce the threat to public safety created by that condition.

This is taken from the 1999 ruling in Winko v. British Columbia. The court also said:

By creating an assessment-treatment alternative for the mentally ill offender to supplant the traditional criminal law conviction-acquittal dichotomy, Parliament has signalled that the NCR accused is to be treated with the utmost dignity and afforded the utmost liberty compatible with his or her situation. The NCR accused is not to be punished. Nor is the NCR accused to languish in custody...as was once the case.

We must remember that the accused who is not criminally responsible has not been found guilty or acquitted of any crime. These people have been declared not criminally responsible, and therefore it is wrong to say that they are criminals. It is an insult and harmful. That is the basis for my remarks.

We should not pass legislation that clouds this important distinction and the restrictions that the Supreme Court of Canada points out in its ruling on the issue.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:40 p.m.
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NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Mr. Speaker, our hon. colleague gave an extremely informative debate with respect to putting this bill in the context of previous legislation.

I wonder if he could elaborate a bit on his concern that the courts do not really have the expertise to engage in what the bill seems to want them to do. I would be grateful if he could inform us a bit more on that point.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:40 p.m.
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Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Speaker, I made specific reference to the fact that it has been demonstrated that the review board does have the necessary expertise. Devolving that decision-making authority back to criminal courts that lack the requisite expertise would prejudice the very objectives this legislation purports to have, namely the protection of public safety, a decrease in the numbers of victims and in particular the whole question of the rehabilitation of the mentally disordered person through treatment and evaluation, which the Supreme Court recommended and which the review board can implement, but for which the criminal courts may not have the expertise.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:40 p.m.
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NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to discuss Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder) at second reading.

I am very pleased to be the first member to speak for the official opposition after our justice critic, who is also the member for Gatineau. She gave an excellent speech. I would like to talk about the aspects that I think are the most important in relation to the position we will be taking as the official opposition. Before going any further, I would like to say that I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member for Notre-Dame-de-Grâce-Lachine.

Basically, Bill C-54 presents three major amendments. The first is that the safety of the public will be the paramount consideration in the decision-making process relating to the accused or those found not criminally responsible for an offence. Second, it creates a scheme for finding that certain persons who have been found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder are high-risk accused. Finally, the bill enhances the involvement of victims. The victim will be informed when the person found not criminally responsible for a crime against the victim is released. There may also be a disposition that communications between the not criminally responsible accused and the victim be prohibited. The bill also provides that the victim’s safety must be considered in decisions made with regard to the release of the person found not criminally responsible for a crime.

When we talk about making public safety a priority, we should point out something that is often ignored: the issue of public safety is already taken into account in decisions made either by a judge or by review boards. This includes cases involving mental disorders. This can be found in Criminal Code section 672.54, which provides that the courts or the review boards must consider the need to protect the public from dangerous persons. The mental condition of the accused, the reintegration of the accused into society and the other needs of the accused are also discussed. Therefore, the Criminal Code already has provisions that oblige the court and the review boards to consider the issue of public safety in the decisions they are making.

With regard to findings that certain accused persons are not criminally responsible but that they are high risk, a different category is proposed. Anyone who has been accused and found not criminally responsible may currently receive one of three verdicts from the court.

The first is an absolute discharge. Here again, the Criminal Code clearly states that an absolute discharge is given if the person is not considered to be a threat to public safety. This newly created category does not affect the matter of absolute discharge. There is also the possibility of a conditional discharge that includes a number of conditions. If a person found not criminally responsible is considered high risk, he cannot be given a conditional discharge. The third possibility, which already existed for not criminally responsible people who might be a risk or a threat, is detention in custody in a hospital.

So, ultimately, this new category of not criminally responsible but high-risk accused affects only one of three possible verdicts. Even before, a high-risk person could not get an absolute discharge and could be kept in custody in a hospital. Now, that person will no longer have the possibility of getting a conditional discharge.

The third question is an issue to which we are sensitive, and that is to increase victim participation in the process. Of course, in many cases, the mental disorder review board—I am familiar with the one in Quebec—must really think about the impact on the victim. We are concerned about this issue because there have been a few cases in Quebec, including one in particular to which the hon. member for Gatineau referred, which is that of Dr. Turcotte.

Before discussing this case, I want to mention a concern that we have, not necessarily regarding the bill and its content but, rather, the Conservative government's approach to these issues and, more specifically, this legislation.

There is really a desire to play political games for populist motives. I am concerned about the government's approach to this bill. We have known for a number of months that the government wanted to propose a bill to deal with accused persons found not criminally responsible. We knew that because the government had already announced its intention, last fall if I am not mistaken.

When it was announced that the Quebec mental disorder review board would conditionally discharge Dr. Turcotte, who was being detained at Institut-Philippe-Pinel, it generated debates, particularly in Quebec. Immediately, on the same day, the government held a press conference to announce once again that it would soon introduce this bill, which was still not ready or drafted.

Therefore, I am very concerned about this government's desire to make political hay with very important issues that should be dealt with in a responsible and reasoned fashion, with a cool head and without using very sensitive situations that stir emotions.

I say this as a person, as a parent, as a father of a four-year-old boy and a one-year-old girl who finds the crime committed by Dr. Turcotte extremely disturbing and traumatic. In that regard, I am thinking about my own children.

However, we are here to represent society and our constituencies. Despite the horror of the actions that are sometimes taken and highly publicized, we must deal with these issues in a reasoned way and with a cool head.

We have another problem, which is the issue of political gains. If this bill is passed—and it probably will, given the Conservative majority—the government could go everywhere in Canada, and particularly in Quebec with, among others, a well-known senator who often speaks for the government on these issues. That senator would meet with victims of acts committed by people found not criminally responsible and tell them that he listened to them and solved their problem. That is not really the perspective we should have on this issue. I am asking the government to be very careful in the way it deals with this issue, whether here in the House or in committee.

We do want to work and help victims be more involved in the process. They must see that the system meets their expectations and needs. However, we want to achieve that result in a balanced fashion that also meets the imperatives of our system, which is a system of law and order, a system based on the rule of law.

The hon. member for Gatineau, who is the justice critic for the official opposition, also mentioned the government's usual approach, which is of great concern to us and which we witnessed, particularly with Bill C-10. That was the omnibus crime bill that imposed a number of measures without consultation with the provinces and territories. Moreover, the government did not provide any impact studies on the ramifications of this bill, including the need for statistics.

For example, in this specific case, what are the recidivism rates? What are the numbers for crime and recidivism by accused found not criminally responsible? We do not have answers. The question was put to the Minister of Justice, but we did not get an answer. These are important issues that will have to be dealt with, and we want answers from the government on this sensitive matter.

In conclusion, I also asked the Minister of Justice if the provinces had been consulted to see if they were prepared to bear the costs. Again, I did not get an answer. There was no prior consultation on the issue of minimum sentences in Bill C-10. This bill will generate additional costs, not only for the system, but also for the institutions that must treat these people.

Let us not forget that, in Ontario, the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health is currently operating at 104% of its capacity. If Ontario is not able to provide adequate resources, this bill will unfortunately fail to address a significant part of the problem.

I look forward to questions from my colleagues.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:50 p.m.
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NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have been wondering about something ever since we started debating this bill.

Where are the victims’ voices in this bill? Is the government really listening? As I see it, we are not really addressing this basic question.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:50 p.m.
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NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, the victims’ voices must indeed be heard. I am well aware of that. We support the bill at second reading. Moreover, I sincerely hope that when the proposed legislation is examined in committee, careful attention will be paid to what victims have to say.

To that end, the committee will, I presume, hear from many experts, from people who are in the system and from victims who will have an opportunity to voice their concerns. Certain provisions of the bill will ensure that victims will be better represented and served by the system. Among other things, it will be easier to obtain an order barring communication between the victim and the accused, when the latter is not criminally responsible, of course. For instance, injunctions may be issued or ordered. In addition—and this seems perfectly natural to me—the system will be able to contact the victim when the accused found not criminally responsible is released, with or without conditions, from an institution.

The philosophy behind these provisions seems reasonable to me, but I want assurances that this is not just a public relations exercise on the government’s part and that victims’ expectations and concerns will truly be addressed in the comments made and in the version of the bill that ultimately will be voted on.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:55 p.m.
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Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo B.C.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Revenue

Mr. Speaker, I really appreciated hearing my colleague say that New Democrats are concerned about the words of victims. I do not know if he is aware, but there was a very difficult case in British Columbia, the Schoenberg case. When this particular piece of legislation was announced, the victims of that crime, who have had horrific difficulties over the last few years, asked Parliament to please pass this legislation and pass it quickly.

My question to the hon. member is this: is he willing to move this forward very quickly so that victims will have their voices heard throughout the whole process?

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:55 p.m.
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NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am not necessarily aware of all of the cases outside Quebec, but I am quite familiar with the cases in that province. I can sympathize with the victims, because there are cases in Quebec that are quite similar in terms of the uproar they caused.

However, while it is important to hear from victims, to give them a voice, to meet their expectations through legitimate means and to make provision for this in the system, we must not lose sight of our duty as elected representatives. We must ensure that the bill contains adequate measures that can be properly incorporated into the Criminal Code. As such, we cannot move forward as quickly as the hon. member would like. The issue must be examined calmly and rationally to ensure that we do our job properly. I trust that is what the committee will do as well.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:55 p.m.
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NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

The hon. member for Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles has the floor. As there is only one minute left, she has 30 seconds for her question.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:55 p.m.
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NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Mr. Speaker, Catherine Latimer, who works for the John Howard Society of Canada, argues that we need more programs and services for victims of sexual abuse. The same is true of gay, transgender and transsexual people, who suffer a second and third type of discrimination and are victimized in our society.

The hon. member touched on the media and discussed the influence that newspaper headlines had on the bill. Ms. Latimer believes we need a stronger focus on prevention. Could the member comment on that?

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:55 p.m.
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NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, that is a very relevant question.

There are many aspects to consider. First of all, we need to ensure that the bill does not stigmatize people with mental illness. The committee and Parliament need to keep that in mind.

I cannot say much about prevention right now because of time constraints. I already mentioned the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, which treats people who were found not criminally responsible for their actions. It is currently operating at 104% of its capacity.

Without the necessary resources in place for prevention and treatment, this bill will be mostly a failure. That is why we are asking the government to give special attention to prevention and treatment when we debate the bill.

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March 1st, 2013 / 12:55 p.m.
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NDP

Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise in the House today to speak to Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder).

I will first provide a little background. The bill proposes three major amendments. The proposed amendments are intended to make public safety the priority, to create a finding that a person who is not criminally responsible is a high-risk accused, and to enhance the involvement of victims.

At present, it is often forgotten that section 672.54 of the Criminal Code provides that the court or review boards shall take into consideration “the need to protect the public from dangerous persons, the mental condition of the accused, the reintegration of the accused into society and the other needs of the accused”.

As some of my colleagues have already said, we will support the bill at second reading, so that it can be examined in greater depth in committee. That said, measures already exist for making public safety the priority. That is something we consider to be very important, and we support it. We want to hear what the experts have to tell us about that.

The legislative amendments to the mental disorder regime in the Criminal Code that are proposed in the Not Criminally Responsible Reform Act would clearly make public safety the paramount concern in the courts and in the decision-making processes of review boards in relation to persons declared NCR—not criminally responsible—or unfit to stand trial.

I will explain that a little more. At present, at the trial of a person with a mental disorder, there are three possible verdicts: absolute discharge, if the person is not a significant threat to public safety; conditional discharge, and that is what we will be discussing here; and detention in custody in a hospital, which is not changing. So there are really two things. First, a person may be charged. However, if the person has a relatively severe disorder and is unable to stand trial immediately, they will not stand trial right away. The person will therefore have permission not to stand trial. They will be treated and will stand trial later. Here we are talking about someone who could be a threat to public safety. What is done then is that the person is offered treatment. The bill ensures that while receiving treatment, the person will not be dangerous to public safety.

My colleague from Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques told us about a problem: the fact that the timing of the Conservative government’s introduction of the bill seems a little suspicious. That is unfortunate, because it is a very good bill. We will allow the bill to proceed, but we are a little afraid that the Conservatives would like to score political points with this bill. They announced it on the day Quebec learned that Dr. Turcotte might be released. That trial received extensive media coverage. The Conservatives immediately came and told us they would be putting forward a bill to protect the public. So they came in on their big horses with their swords at the ready, to say they were protecting the public. That is something we hear a lot from the Conservative side: that they are the best when it comes to protecting the public. That said, this is actually what the bill does, by strengthening the protection of the public. But one does wonder why the Conservatives introduced it at this time. Why did they make the announcement at a point when the bill was still only at the draft stage or did not even exist yet?

My second concern about the bill is that the Conservatives are attempting to download costs to the provinces. In an interview with Global News, Carole Saindon, a spokesperson for the Department of Justice, said the provinces would have to foot the bill for this new policy. This seems to be increasingly the case with Conservative bills.

The federal government passes laws and downloads the costs of implementing them to the provincial governments. It did so, for example, when it increased the age of eligibility for OAS. It did so again with Bill C-10 on minimum sentences. This bill we have before us, which is a good bill, will also have to be paid for by the provinces. What is more, we do not know if the provinces and territories were consulted. We do not know what will happen if a province does not have the necessary funds to fully implement the bill.

There is an organization in Ontario that deals with mentally ill people who get in trouble with the law. It is currently working at 104% capacity. The bill is a step in the right direction, but we do not know if we will have the means to implement it.

My second point concerns the creation of the high-risk NCR accused designation. This bill would amend the Criminal Code by creating a process to designate accused persons as high-risk NCR. They could be designated NCR because of serious personal injury offences committed against other persons and because there is a substantial likelihood of further violence that would endanger the public. The designation might also apply in cases in which the acts were of such a brutal nature as to indicate a risk of grave harm to the public. High-risk NCR accused would be ineligible for a conditional or absolute discharge. The designation could only be revoked by the court following a recommendation of the review board. This designation would apply only to NCR accused, not to persons found unfit to stand trial.

Persons found unfit to stand trial are persons who are unable to undergo a trial but who were not unfit at the time of the crime.

The third amendment I discussed earlier concerns enhancing victims' involvement. I would like to emphasize this point. Victims often appear to be forgotten by the Conservative Party. This is what troubles me. The government always tables law and order legislation, but it often forgets the victims. I used to work in a prison. I was a teacher at a detention centre. Social reintegration is key to ensuring that things go well in society. I understand that there must be laws and punishment—no one is opposed to that—but we are lacking a reintegration aspect.

As a number of my colleagues have said, we had trouble obtaining data from the government on this subject. Some members had to place questions on the order paper to get answers. We wanted to get some of the case law and statistics gathered by the government on persons found not criminally responsible. We wanted to know how much time each person found not criminally responsible spent in treatment before being discharged. We wanted to know exactly how many people this legislation would affect.

I think it is appropriate to talk about enhancing victims' involvement. Victims are often disregarded in Conservative legislation. This bill would ensure that victims are notified, upon request, when the accused is discharged. The bill provides for non-communications orders between the accused and the victim. It will also ensure that the safety of victims is considered when decisions are made about an accused person. However, I find this last point somewhat vague. This information does not tell me how that would be done or how victims' safety would be guaranteed.

To sum up, I think this is a bill that will enhance an existing act. I hope the Conservative Party is not playing a game so that it can make a lot of political hay out of this issue.

This is not the point of the exercise. The objective is to come up with a better law that respects human rights.

I hope that we will have the bill before us in committee long enough to study it carefully, that witnesses from all sides of the House will appear and that we will go through the whole process in order to pass this bill.

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March 1st, 2013 / 1:05 p.m.
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Oshawa Ontario

Conservative

Colin Carrie ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health

Mr. Speaker, my colleague asked why the government brought forward this legislation and what the timing was all about. She has been in the House for a while, and I want her to be aware that it is very consistent with our government's commitment to making Canadian streets and Canadians safer.

It sounds like she is very supportive, and she mentioned that the legislation has three new components: one, putting public safety first; two, creating a high-risk designation; and three, enhancing victims' involvement. That is one I want to talk about because we have heard of some horrible cases where three beautiful children were murdered and then the perpetrator was released into the community after a short period of time without the family of the children knowing.

Could the member put forth any of the NDP's ideas to better enhance victims' involvement and victims' rights? At the end of the day, this is what it is all about. I would like to hear her comments on that.

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March 1st, 2013 / 1:10 p.m.
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NDP

Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague. I would like to touch on two points in his question.

First, he asked me why the bill was introduced at this particular point in time. In fact, it was introduced according to the roadmap and the agenda that the government has set.

That being said, the fact that the announcement was made on the same day we learned that Dr. Guy Turcotte had been released from prison and had gone home to his community seems to me to be a hugely political move rather than a move intended to improve the law. That is why I expressed concern about that.

The second part of his question concerned the three amendments that were made. As I said in my speech, we think that these are sound measures. I do not agree that a criminal should be able to return home without the family being made aware of it. I am very happy that the bill now takes this into consideration and that the family can be notified.

Nonetheless, I still have concerns about what is done to help the accused reintegrate into the community. I find that not much support is provided.

In addition, we must not forget the victims, who must be given assistance, including psychological support. We have to be sure that they understand the process. We often hear that the process is complicated.

I had to reread the bill the number of times before talking about it, and I was a teacher before becoming a member of Parliament. Many of the sections are extremely complex and they have to be clearly understood. Most people will not find this very easy. An awareness campaign is perhaps necessary to ensure that everybody clearly understands the issues and that people agree with the way in which the decisions are made.

For the victims, this is certainly a step in the right direction. I look forward to hearing from the witnesses in committee.

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March 1st, 2013 / 1:10 p.m.
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NDP

Laurin Liu NDP Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Mr. Speaker, clearly public safety has to be protected, in a way that is consistent with the rule of law and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I would also ask that the government take those things into consideration and that all the legislation it proposes comply with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Constitution.

My hon. colleague also mentioned that in addition to introducing bills and enacting measures in the House to assist victims, we have to have the necessary resources to fight crime effectively and help victims regain control of their lives.

Does my colleague have any additional comments on that issue?

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March 1st, 2013 / 1:10 p.m.
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NDP

Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question.

As I said earlier in my speech, I think the government has a tendency to produce a lot of bills that shift the cost to the provinces. I do not know what the provinces’ reaction has been, but we will certainly have to think of a way to help them.

According to the CEO of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, the bill will mean that the public will be more prejudiced against persons with mental disorders. In my opinion, the bill does not help them, since they will be further stigmatized.

The provinces do not have a lot of resources to work on prevention and support these people. Individuals who have mental disorders are victims of what is happening to them. I do not think there are many resources to help the province ensure that individuals with mental disorders are properly reintegrated into society, that they do not reoffend, and that their mental health care helps them feel better in society.

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March 1st, 2013 / 1:15 p.m.
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NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will start by talking about the implications when someone receives a verdict of not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. I will focus on understanding the parameters for and applications of such measures in criminal proceedings.

It is an honour for me to be able to inform the public. Over the holidays and over the past few weeks, I toured a number of reserves in Quebec. I was informing people about the amendments set out in Bill C-45, Bill C-38 and Bill C-27. These amendments will affect both the traditional and contemporary ways of life of the aboriginal peoples.

I will do the same thing today. I will be informing the public. My background is in law. I was a litigator for almost six years. I worked primarily in criminal law, but I also worked in mental health. During my years as a lawyer, I was called upon to present a number of applications under subsections 672.11(a) and 672.11(b). Later on, I will talk more about how these two parts of the section are applied.

Based on how the media have covered certain cases over the years, it seems clear that the bottom line is popularity and ad revenue, and that the media will resort to flashy tactics, broad appeal and—to a certain extent—misinformation. This is why some people err in fact and in law. This is not a criticism, because not everyone has a legal background, but there are some misconceptions floating around. I think it is important to get back to the basics with this debate, to talk about the foundations, what it truly means and how these sections are applied.

Subsections 672.11(a) and 672.11(b) of the Criminal Code refer to applications that the defence lawyer and the prosecutor can submit to a judge in a specific case. When we meet our client for the first time in a criminal case—I will talk about my experience as a defence lawyer—we can determine fairly quickly whether the individual is in a fragile state of mind, as we say. When we visit a client in his cell or in the psychiatric wing and he is not in his right mind, the psychiatrists' reports will often say that he is in a fragile state of mind, disoriented and confused.

It is at that point that the lawyer goes to the judge and says that when he met with his client, the client was not able to give clear instructions and seemed to be in a fragile state of mind and somewhat confused. There is therefore reason to believe that he is not in his right mind and should undergo an assessment pursuant to paragraph 672.11(a) or 672.11(b). The crown prosecutor may also broach this subject.

I see this all the time in my practice in my riding. For example, in the past few days, journalists from Radio-Canada—not to name names—have said that drug-related crime in my riding increased by 38% in 2012.

Psychosis and toxic psychosis are recurring themes. That is why I have submitted dozens of requests pursuant to section 672.11 over the years. That is specific to my practice in my riding. There is a lot of violence. The psychiatric wing is very well equipped. There are a number of psychiatrists working in Sept-Îles. Some cases, not the majority, were so serious that clients were routinely transferred to the Philippe-Pinel Institute in Montreal for help.

It can take about a month for a client to leave and get assessed to determine if he is criminally responsible. The client is sent to Montreal or, sometimes, to Sept-Îles. The serious cases are usually sent to Montreal to be assessed. The client comes back with an assessment, and the findings go on for pages.

It is interesting reading material and I miss it very much. I will not hide the fact that I miss my practice. I often receive calls on my business cell phone asking me to represent someone. I have to refuse because I do not have the time.

When the client returns and we look at the case, we examine the assessment and the expert report, which provide information about the circumstances and the expert's opinion. To date, I have never seen the Crown challenge the assessment or ask for a second one, but that can happen.

The judge relies on the findings of the expert in Montreal or Sept-Îles, as the case may be. The judge will refer the case of the individual in question to Quebec's administrative tribunal. He will rule that the individual is not responsible and simply transfer the file.

This is one aspect that we have not talked about much. I have not heard anything about this today. None of my colleagues has mentioned this. In Quebec, the administrative tribunal is responsible for the file and will determine the course of action to be taken for people who are not criminally responsible.

To put all of this into perspective, I will add that the hearings of Quebec's administrative tribunal are held by videoconference at the Sept-Îles hospital, in my experience. The tribunal members appear by video. The lawyer is present with his client, who must appear once or a few times a year, if I am not mistaken.

Ultimately, the members of the administrative tribunal will determine what course of action should be taken in a case. That is where the problem lies. I will provide more information on this subject in the next few minutes.

I worked for years with clients with mental health problems. Some but not all people with these types of disorders are stubborn about or opposed to being monitored and taking medication. Many of my clients were opposed to taking medication.

One of the criteria for determining whether people are mentally ill is that they are not aware of their own illness. As a result, as soon as they are not being so closely monitored, individuals who do not realize that they are sick tend to stop taking their medication because they do not believe that they are sick and they do not think that they need to take it. This is a fairly volatile client group. These people may simply stop going to their monthly appointments with their psychiatrist and may just vanish.

I have dealt with this type of situation in my practice. The extremely difficult cases I have had to deal with sometimes gave me the shivers. I will not give any identifying information because of privacy concerns. However, some files dealt with necrophilia, arson and extreme violence. Over the years, I was able to help some of these individuals get back on the right track.

Sometimes, once these individuals were released following their hearing before Quebec's administrative tribunal, they vanished because they were not being monitored closely enough.

I have sometimes received calls after a few months or years from the police or from the client himself who is in a fragile mental state but, in a moment of lucidity, called me to find out the status of his case. I would ask him if he was still taking his medication and where he was in Quebec. I wanted to know where he was because I knew he had high potential for violence. I will spare you the details, but they sometimes keep me awake at night.

In short, these individuals decided to run away, which is why I insisted that, at the very least, they be more closely monitored and that their location be tracked in order to prevent them from vanishing.

I also dealt with arson, which is a fairly common occurrence. Those working in the field of psychiatry see all kinds of people. Sometimes it can be interesting to read about these cases.

The cases could give you goosebumps.

Some recent highly publicized cases have called the existing approach into question. So we must refocus the debate on the best interests of victims, while ensuring that the rule of law and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms are respected.

I plan on returning to practising law sometime in the future. Perhaps I should not say this, but it comes naturally to me to represent these individuals and help them get back on the right track after they are assessed by the people in Montreal. The judge would simply refer the whole thing to Quebec's administrative tribunal.

As I have already said, decisions from this tribunal do not carry a lot of weight, at least not in Sept-Îles. It may be different in a metropolitan or urban area, where the hearings are conducted in person. But that is not the case where I come from. I remember one case in particular, with someone who took off after the hearing and attended only one hearing with the administrative tribunal. Perhaps this person was eventually caught. An arrest warrant may have been issued. The police eventually tracked him down to make sure that he was not in a fragile state of mind, that he was taking his medication properly and did not represent a danger to himself or others. I am thinking of cases of schizophrenia, since people with this illness can be dangerous to themselves and to the general public.

That is something that poses significant problems. I am thinking about a specific case, but I should mention that he was a martial arts expert and he assaulted anyone who tried to go into his cell or into his room in the psychiatric wing. He thought the Hells Angels were coming to the hospital to get him. That is why he punched people, including large men. The hospital uses “code 88” when a patient becomes violent. All of the large men are asked to help out. It may be “code 89”; I cannot remember anymore. There is an internal code at the hospital in Sept-Îles. Whatever the case may be, he punched out five people. He was in pretty good shape.

He was found not criminally responsible because he could not discern right from wrong. He was a victim of his own illusions. However, he was released and no one knew where he was for a while. A few months went by, maybe a year or two, and then he called me about his case. I knew then that he had stopped taking his medication and appearing at hearings.

That is my summary of the risks and implications, which I submit to you.

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March 1st, 2013 / 1:25 p.m.
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NDP

The Deputy Speaker NDP Joe Comartin

If the member wishes to finish his speech, he will have six and a half minutes the next time.

It being 1:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

The House resumed from March 1, 2013, consideration of the motion that Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:05 a.m.
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NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time today.

Bill C-54 aims to include a new policy in the legislation, and that policy, that ideological shift, forces us to take a step back and look at our country's history.

As soon as British rule was established, we enforced British laws. Criminal laws were set out in the aptly named Bloody Code. The number of crimes that resulted in a death sentence was unreasonable. Quite often, it was not just death by hanging. In Canada, it often involved torture.

The second important element of the British criminal code that we inherited is the jury. That is an important element, one that should not be ignored.

Individuals appearing before the jury were guilty. They had already been proven guilty. When the jury found out what kind of sentence was to be meted out, the jury members decided to declare the individuals innocent. The jury did not want to be complicit in enforcing an overly harsh and unreasonably cruel law. Luckily, the Bloody Code was amended and became the Criminal Code.

At the time, stealing cattle could lead to death by hanging. Household servants who stole something from the house could receive the death penalty. Those crimes were abolished because they were so unreasonable and the penalties were no longer being enforced. The jury refused to be complicit in imposing such harsh sentences.

This brings us back to the present situation. Juries can still refuse to enforce the Criminal Code in a more modern way. If jury members really believe in all good conscience that enforcing the Criminal Code is unacceptable, they can reject it.

The last time this was clearly applied in recent times was in the Morgentaler case. Dr. Morgentaler performed abortions, which was strictly prohibited by the Criminal Code. He was prosecuted in a trial by jury. The evidence that he was indeed performing abortions was clear, but the jury refused to enforce the Criminal Code. The jury said it would not be complicit with the politicians who had passed the legislation, which they considered to be flawed and poorly drafted, legislation that punished a crime that was only in the politicians' heads. The jury said no. That is the danger with Bill C-54 and its whole underlying philosophy—that we are going to be tough on crime, scare people and impose extremely harsh minimum sentences to punish crime.

Judges will say to themselves that the cases are theirs, that they will keep a certain distance and that they are not puppets who are incapable of any independent thought. We saw this with the Firearms Act. Someone had gone to a friend's house, taken the friend's revolver and was playing with that illegal weapon. He committed a crime. However, the judge ruled that there had to be criminal intent and that the law, as it was written, was unacceptable. He struck down the law.

A judge can strike down a law, and so can a jury.

When it comes to crimes committed by people with mental health issues, it is important to understand that, when faced with the absolute horror of the crime, members of a jury always tend to say that an individual of sound mind would never have done such a thing. A good example of this is the case of Dr. Turcotte, who murdered his two children.

All the lawyers and prosecutors who are under the obligation to present proof beyond a reasonable doubt have encountered this problem in these types of cases: the jury cannot accept that a man of sound mind would do such a horrific thing to his children.

Dr. Turcotte took full advantage of this human reaction. That was the basis for his defence. It was a jury that decided his fate. It is easy to say that the judge should have done more, but there is always the risk that the jury will be unable to accept that a person of sound mind could commit such atrocities.

This risk hangs over every trial involving serial killers. That is why prosecutors must be well prepared. They must prove that the crime was premeditated. Often, if the prosecutor can prove that the crime was premeditated, the jury sees that it was not a moment of temporary insanity. The person planned, organized and committed the crime. In the case of Dr. Turcotte, the jury did not find that such was the case.

With the notion of “beyond a reasonable doubt”, only a glimmer of doubt is needed for the person to be proven innocent. This poses another problem: the use of media coverage of the amendment to the Criminal Code for political purposes. We must not kid ourselves. There is a party in the House with a “tough on crime” agenda. That is fine. However, it is a bit ridiculous for the government to say that it is going to be tough on criminals and then turn around and make cuts to police budgets. This is not the first time that this government has contradicted itself.

People who commit crimes must be punished. Our Criminal Code does just that. However, some changes had to be made. Parole after one-sixth of a sentence and the two-for-one credit for time served before sentencing did not make sense.

It is fine to pass a law, but the reality is that we have to enforce it. Whenever we express the slightest doubt, we are accused of supporting pedophiles or cyberpedophiles and being anti-law.

Legislation and the law are two different things. So are legislation and justice. In the House, we are committed to justice. We are being asked to pass bills whose only objective is to let the minister say that the government will prevent such and such an incident from happening. I am sorry, but in the case of Dr. Turcotte, it would not have changed anything. Furthermore, leaving a rope in Dr. Turcotte's cell will not solve the problem.

By the way, I would like to point out that counselling a person to commit suicide is a Criminal Code offence. The Conservatives might want to inform some senators of that. It would be useful sometimes if people would read the law, not just defend it. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, especially for those in Parliament who claim to champion Criminal Code amendments.

This is obviously a sad case. I have very little time left, so to sum up: this law will not change anything because the jury still remains the judge of the facts.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:10 a.m.
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Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is important for us to recognize that there is so much more that government can do in terms of working, in particular, with provincial counterparts to try to deal with some of the issues related to mental illness and the number of crimes that are being committed. One only needs to look at some of our institutions, particularly hospitals, to get a sense of the number of individuals where there is a correlation between mental illness and crimes being committed.

My question is related to the importance of providing resources for detecting mental illness and dealing with issues that ultimately lead to crimes being committed because we are giving short shrift to the needs of mental illness. If we dealt with mental illness in a more holistic approach, we would be able to prevent some of these crimes from taking place in the first place. I am interested in the member's comments on that.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:15 a.m.
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NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, this law is problematic. Some individuals should not be able to plead insanity. We must identify the problem to prevent such crimes, since some people need health services while others, who are of perfectly sound mind, plead insanity. Those are two completely different things. Measures must be taken to provide support for mental health.

With deinstitutionalization, too many people were released from psychiatric hospitals and literally put on the street. These crimes were predictable. Quite often we are talking about petty theft. Others commit serious crimes, plead insanity and win their case. That is another problem. We must provide support for mental health care. Too many people are on the street who should not be there.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:15 a.m.
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NDP

Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague was talking about the concept of justice. I would like to take a closer look at that concept, compared to the concept of vengeance. It sometimes seems as though bills introduced by this government focus more on vengeance than justice, but is justice not what victims of crime want?

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:15 a.m.
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NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question. We are looking for justice. We propose laws that should, in theory, be in the spirit of justice. Unfortunately, we sometimes miss the mark. However, in the tradition of the English criminal law system, we have judges and juries. Sometimes, these people say that the law does not reflect their vision of justice, in the sense that it seeks to revenge or too harshly punish a crime, when what they were looking for was justice.

This does not mean that we will support and protect criminals. We must find a balance. Does Bill C-54 provide that balance? We will support this bill, even though we are very uncomfortable with the philosophy behind it. However, we will search for justice. That is the duty of every single member who sits in this House.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:15 a.m.
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NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise to speak to Bill C-54, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder).

The key new measure provided for in this bill is a new power to designate a high-risk category of accused under both the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act.

The category of accused that has drawn considerable attention and loud calls for stricter punishment is exactly this category, particularly for more heinous acts where somebody is deemed to be not criminally responsible. In such cases, the accused is neither convicted nor acquitted. These cases are to be differentiated from an accused found unfit to stand trial. Once deemed fit, those accused may be tried for the offence and incarcerated. In both cases, the accused is normally incarcerated in the forensic unit of a mental hospital.

Current law obligates a court or review board to discharge an accused found not criminally responsible unless he or she poses a significant risk to public safety. In rendering the decision, they must give consideration to a number of factors: the need to protect the public from dangerous persons; the mental condition of the accused; reintegration of the accused into society; and other needs of the accused.

The proposed new law makes the safety of the public the paramount consideration. In other words, it means sidebarring the mental condition of the accused or any efforts made to eventually reintegrate the accused into society, which will happen eventually.

What has attracted the most public controversy are cases where the accused has committed violent acts, is deemed not criminally responsible, is detained in an institution and is then released. Some are complaining that these are unjust punishments and that they merit harsher responses and retribution. Concerns have been raised about the potential of continued endangerment of the community.

The fact that an accused may be found not criminally responsible absolutely does not diminish recognition of the heinous character of any violent act. It does not in any way diminish the impact of that act on the victims, their families or their communities.

Yet in law, an accused must be accorded his or her full rights under the law and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. To not do so means that the matter may be referred to the courts. This is particularly the case for NCR accused who are neither convicted nor acquitted of an offence. It is critical to the rule of law.

The challenge in addressing crimes arising from short-term or long-term mental disorders is determining the appropriate judicial and treatment response that addresses the mental state of the accused, the harm caused, the potential for reoffending, the deterrent effect, and the challenge of responding to crimes arising from short- or long-term mental disorders.

Bill C-54 proposes three key reforms for these accused.

The first is to put public safety first by making explicit that this is the paramount consideration for the court and the review boards. Again, that sets aside equal consideration of the mental state of the accused and the rehabilitation to enable them to return safely to community.

The second is to create a high-risk designation. It would empower the courts and the review boards to impose a high-risk designation for any accused found NCR of a serious personal injury offence and where there is a substantial likelihood of further violence that could endanger the public or where the acts were of such a brutal nature as to indicate significant threat of harm to the public. It is that second factor that a number of organizations, including the Canadian Bar Association, would like to have removed from the bill.

The third is to have “significant threat to the safety of the public” be defined in the code.

Such accused are to be denied any conditional or absolute discharges. The designations are only to be revoked by a court order, on the recommendation of a review board. Again, the Canadian Bar Association is objecting to that, saying that the more appropriate body to be deciding the mental state of the accused, vis-à-vis safety to the community, is a review board in consultation with psychiatrists, not a court.

Also there would be stricter controls on community visits. Again, a number of associations, including the Psychiatric Association of Canada, have said that this is exactly the kind of measure, if appropriately accompanied, that could help to gradually rehabilitate people and bring them back into the community.

It would also give the power to the review board to extend the review period from one to three years. In other words, there is the potential to not allow the release of the person, even if he or she is then found to be mentally competent to go back to his or her community.

Access to treatment under the law is not to be affected.

The provision in the law that most support is being found for is the provision for enhanced involvement of the victim in the proceedings. There would be notice, upon request, when the accused is discharged. It would provide for orders of non-communication between the accused and the victim, and any decisions related to the accused would give due consideration to the safety of any victims.

The current law already requires courts and review boards to consider the need to protect the public from dangerous persons, the mental condition of any accused, reintegration into society and other needs of the accused. These reforms may, in some small way, appease some members of the public. However, would they have any appreciable effect on reducing the number of violent crimes perpetrated by persons with long-term or temporary mental conditions? Statistics suggest otherwise.

Recidivism rates for NCR accused range from 2.5% to 7.5%. That is to be compared with a 41% to 45% rate of recidivism for other offenders. Therefore, the NCR accused are the most highly unlikely to reoffend. How then can we rationalize detaining them for more extended periods? Can any extension ever satisfy those distressed by the crime? Eventually they will be released, so is increased incarceration in a forensic unit, with potentially limited psychiatric care, the answer? As has been pointed out by other members, are the courts the appropriate authority to be making a decision on the rehabilitation of the mentally disordered person? Should that not remain with the review boards and psychiatric care?

Is a better, or at least additional, solution to ensure more resources for Canadian mental health detention facilities, as the experts have called for? It is important to examine the case law and to hear from legal and medical experts, and as others have suggested, to examine whether each provincial or territorial jurisdiction has the appropriate facilities to detain these accused for extended time periods and to provide the necessary psychiatric support.

It will be helpful for the government to release its opinion on the potential charter challenges the bill may pose so that those matters may be addressed before any reforms are enacted. It will be important to hear testimony on the cost implications of the bill compared to other alternatives, as incarceration is normally the highest-cost alternative. An obvious question is whether the provinces and territories have been consulted, as these costs will most certainly be downloaded to them for extended periods of detention, the provision of psychiatric services and the duty to notify and track victims and the accused.

What have other medical and legal experts said so far about the proposed law? All have expressed concern that they have not been consulted in the development and drafting of this law. The Canadian Psychiatric Association recommends against the high-risk designation, as no evidence exists that these policies pose undue public risk. They also point out that the recidivism rate is very low for the NCR accused. They state that it would impose a substantial drain on already scarce forensic resources while delivering little increased public safety. They say that it merely reinforces punishment and retribution while removing valuable therapeutic tools. They also say that the unintended consequences of the high-risk designation contradicts campaigns, including by this House, to open dialogue on mental health, removing the stigma and enabling early treatment. They recommend the removal of brutality of the offence as a criterion, as does the Canadian Bar Association. They say that they should permit escorted passes and should remove the power to extend the review period.

The Schizophrenia Society endorses exactly what the Psychiatric Association has said. The John Howard Society and the Elizabeth Fry Society raise serious concerns about these proposals, except for the notice provisions.

The Canadian Bar Association National Criminal Justice Section opposes the high-risk designation as unconstitutional, so we can anticipate court challenges. If enacted, they recommend that the “brutal nature” of the act category of consideration be removed and that there be added a right of the accused to apply to the court to remove the high-risk designation. They also support the notice requirements.

As legislators, it is of utmost importance that in making any new laws, particularly criminal laws, we take the time to consult and consider the opinions and advice of informed and experienced experts. It is for that reason I will be supporting this bill at second reading. It is so wise counsel can finally be publicly revealed and considered.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:25 a.m.
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Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, all this bill would do is give judges a little more discretion. Whenever we want to reduce a judge's discretion to provide public protection and victim recognition, the New Democrats get up in arms and say that we cannot reduce judges' discretion and that we have to trust judges.

Why does this member not trust judges when they get discretion to protect the public? Is it not the fact that all she is really opposed to is the government's agenda of public protection?

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:25 a.m.
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NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am left confused, because the hon. member seems to be speaking out of both sides of his mouth at once. The very concern raised by the criminal bar and by the Canadian Psychiatric Association is that we are fettering the discretion of the judges. Right now there are a series of criteria to be considered both by the review board and the courts. The intent of this law is to fetter that discretion more thoroughly.

As it stands right now, the law balances the need to protect the rights of the accused with the obligation to protect the public and to consider the interests of the victims. As I said before, everybody appears to be supporting the expanded duty to notify and consult.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:25 a.m.
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Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I too want to pick up on that last point. There is a great deal of support for the idea of non-communication with victims and of giving consideration to victims. It is an aspect of the legislation that would have support from all sides of the House and that I suspect would gain considerable support outside of the House, even from the different stakeholders she made reference to.

When government brings in legislation, there is often what is called a poison pill or something of this nature. Something is in the legislation that makes it difficult to support, even though there are aspects of the legislation that are encouraging or potentially positive.

Can the member provide further comment on what is currently in place that allows for special consideration being given to victims?

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:30 a.m.
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NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, there was a lot in that question.

On some occasions, the government actually allows for debate on bills. Fortunately, this is a government bill and we are having an extensive debate. However, it is regrettable that there was not sufficient advance consultation with those who could have advised on the drafting of the bill, including the Canadian Psychiatric Association, the Canadian Bar Association and even victims' organizations.

Indeed, as I have stated, as have many people who have commented on the bill, the law already provides a fair number of factors for the courts to consider. What we can hope is that the government might consider witness testimony and our suggestions for reform and that it would potentially accept the expanded notification requirements but take away the designation.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:30 a.m.
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NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Mr. Speaker, I am interested in the notice requirements. Are these mandatory requirements, or can the victims choose not to be notified of any more events related to the incident they were involved with? In many cases, that may be what the victims would want. In cases where the acts of violence are completely random, the victims may not want to have this on their plates for any longer than the time it happened. What is the provision within the law in terms of notice?

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:30 a.m.
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NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that the intent is to provide that as optional. The victims of a crime would have the option of advising the government that they would like to be notified, and if so, they would be given notification. I am not sure how “victim” is being defined, but I am presuming that it also means the families of victims or anybody associated with the victims who may feel that they are at risk. I do not think anybody would object to that change being made.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:30 a.m.
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NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, in general we support this change to the Criminal Code. We support it at least going to second reading. It deals with the very real and perceived threats to the public that come from the not criminally responsible declaration by judges.

I say “perceived threats”, because part of what is driving this attempt to amend the law is to play upon the fears of Canadians. We think that should be left out of the debate. The other side is very good at playing upon Canadians' fear of crime, and fears generally. However, we need to look at this legislation in a clear and thoughtful way.

We need to look at this legislation and determine whether it is achieving a good public policy goal. Is it achieving it in a way that will not be a burden on the public or the provinces or the victims of crime? That is one of the very serious concerns we have about this legislation; it may in fact be a burden on portions of the criminal justice system, including the provinces.

As a review of what the system is now, there is a very small percentage of accused, and I am not saying criminals, who are actually found not criminally responsible in the course of their trial. We are told it is something like one in 100,000 individuals who are accused—not members of the public, but accused—and found not criminally responsible. That is an extremely tiny percentage. The Conservatives are spending a lot of time and effort in dealing with some perceived notions, some of which were created by recent events in the news and some of which are just general fears by Canadians. That very small percentage needs to be brought to the attention of both sides of the House.

By the way, Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time.

There are two basic definitions for individuals who are accused. Sometimes they are found unfit to stand trial, in which case we wait until they are fit to stand trial. Once they are at trial, if that individual was not criminally responsible by reason of a mental disorder at the time of committing the crime, that person can be, and sometimes is, declared not criminally responsible at the time of committing a crime. Therefore, rather than a prosecution, they are shifted into the mental health system.

The mental health system includes a review board. It includes judges. It includes mental health professionals. The mental health system, the review board and the judges determine when a person is not criminally responsible, at what point that individual is no longer a threat to society. If they are no longer a threat to society, at that point they can be given either a conditional or an actual discharge. They can also be sent to hospital, to be held and restrained in hospital, like a jail. We are aware of lots of them. It is those individuals the bill is attempting to deal with.

As I said, only one in 100,000 accused are actually not criminally responsible, and a smaller percentage are those individuals who end up in a hospital setting or in a mental health process.

The changes that are being proposed are by and large welcome, but they need discussion and analysis. We need the mental health and the criminal justice professionals in this country to advise us on whether these provisions would create unintended consequences or injustices in the system.

For example, one of the changes is that the review board must now move its analysis of not criminally responsible individuals and take public safety as their paramount consideration.

Is that a good thing, or is it now skewing, changing, or putting fetters, as the member for Edmonton—Strathcona said earlier, on the justice system? Is it in fact restricting the ability of an individual judge or the review board to consider matters fairly and reasonably?

We need more counsel. We need more advice from both the criminal justice system and the medical profession as to whether or not that is going to change the outcomes in a meaningful way that is more protective of the public. I do not know the answer to that question; it certainly sounds like it on the face of it, but maybe that change will in fact cause other problems.

The bigger change to this bill is the creation of a definition of “high risk”, which will now add to the panoply of definitions by which a significant threat to the safety of the public could be attached to an individual. Again, what is the purpose of this change? What is the end result of that change? It may be a good thing, but we need more advice, more counsel, and we need not to do it from a surfeit of fear.

We need to not take this new definition out of the context of what this law is attempting to provide in the first place. It is attempting to provide a system that not only protects the public generally but also provides the mechanisms and means to rehabilitate.

For criminals in the criminal justice system who are not found to be not criminally responsible—in other words, those who are criminally responsible—the purpose of the justice system is to make them into better citizens, but we find that the recidivism rate amongst those who are in that system is between 41% and 44%, so we are not doing a very good job of protecting the public with the regular criminal justice system.

In the not criminally responsible justice system, the recidivism rate is around 2.5% to 3%, so we are doing a good job there. We are finding that if individuals with a mental disorder are properly treated, those individuals can return to be productive members of Canadian society, which is what we ultimately want.

We need to examine both halves of the justice system, and whether or not we are actually doing a good job in it.

The third major part of this legislation is to indicate that victims are now to be a major part of the regime. The victims themselves have already suffered at the hands of the perpetrator, at the hands of the person not criminally responsible. With good intent, we are asking that the victims be notified when those individuals are discharged. The individuals who are being discharged could have a non-communication order attached to them if they are not allowed to deal with the victims. In addition, the safety of the victims needs to be taken into account when a decision is made about the release of an individual back into the public.

We think that portion of the bill needs a lot of attention. We agree that victims are by far the paramount consideration in any justice system legislation, but we do not spend enough time now looking after victims. I doubt that there is enough time, effort and money in the mental health resources of the provinces to give the victims of serious crime the help they need in getting over it. We should be looking at that as well.

We also understand that this is a very difficult issue for victims. What if victims do not want to have any reminders whatsoever of this individual? Do we put them in an awkward position of having to say “No, I do not want to be reminded”? They would actually have to be asked if they wanted to be reminded, and then they have to refuse to be reminded.

It is a very difficult position for the victims to be in. The victims would be in a position where they were not necessarily receiving the appropriate attention and help from the provincial medical system, but those victims would be asked for their opinion on this, and it might in fact be difficult for them.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:40 a.m.
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Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I was listening intently to both the previous speaker from the NDP and the question from the member from the Northwest Territories, which was to the effect that somehow we are bothering or burdening victims by telling them the situation with regard to the person who aggrieved them.

After 30 years of policing and seven years as a member of Parliament listening to victims and working with victims and knowing how they feel, I do not know of one instance, not one in 37 years, in which a victim has said he or she really did not want to know what was going on. Maybe it has occurred, but I have never experienced it, nor do I know a fellow police officer who has. If I were to add up all of our experience, it would be hundreds of years, and a victim has never said that.

We hear the opposition say that victims should be paramount. All we are asking is for a judge in the criminal justice system to look at the situation once more before someone is released into society. It is sort of a double check, so to speak. For the trivial 2% of people who are re-victimized or where there is recidivism, those are huge numbers in their minds when they have a loved one who has been killed or seriously hurt.

I think the opposition is just looking for an excuse to vote down another criminal justice bill.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:45 a.m.
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NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, in fact we said we support this bill at second reading, so we are not looking for an excuse. All we want to do is make sure that we do not unintentionally create a problem by amending a bill in a way that actually re-victimizes individuals. That is all.

Perhaps there are victims in the world who would not want to be told, “By the way, the person who did something brutal to you or caused you to become a victim of a crime, a person who was found not criminally responsible, is being released. Do you want to know about it?” If it is six or 10 years later and the victim has forgotten all about it and there is a chance it will be harmful, we simply want that possibility to be taken into consideration. That is all.

I am not suggesting that victims are not paramount; they are, and the NDP believes they are. We simply want to make sure we craft this bill in a way that does not cause injury to any victims.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:45 a.m.
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Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I want to focus on the issue of mental illness. If the federal government were to work with the provinces and, between the two, invest in mental illness issues and provide the supports necessary, fewer crimes would be committed in our communities from coast to coast to coast in Canada.

In terms of priorities, would the member agree that the government needs to put a higher priority on that issue than on the many pieces of legislation, such as this, that it is bringing through, and that if more could be done on prevention in dealing with mental illness, it would make our streets safer across Canada?

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:45 a.m.
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NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question. The NDP has said on a number of occasions, and will continue to say, that crime prevention should be the number one focus of any government. In fact, creating fewer victims in the first place is what we should be aiming for.

I have a private member's bill coming up that will deal with 85% of the street crime in my riding, which is the theft of cellphones, and the government has said it is opposed to it. I am trying to prevent the crime before it happens, and the government has indicated that it is not willing to prevent the crime before it happens.

Maybe it wants to fill up the jails it built; I do not know, but our job should be preventing crimes in the first place. If a robust and effective mental health care system in each of the provinces prevents even one crime, then we have all done justice to the system.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:45 a.m.
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NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to rise in the House to speak on behalf of my constituents in Pontiac. Public safety is a rather major issue.

One of the objectives of Bill C-54 is to protect victims. The bill seeks to increase the safety of victims by providing them with more opportunities to participate in the Criminal Code mental disorder regime, by ensuring that they are notified on request when the accused is discharged, allowing non-communication orders between the accused and the victim and ensuring that the safety of victims is considered when decisions are being made about an accused person.

In addition, the proposed legislation would help ensure consistency in the interpretation and application of the law across the country. However, it is important to note that these reforms would not change the current eligibility criteria in the Criminal Code with respect to exemption from criminal responsibility on account of mental disorder.

The proposed reforms would also define the concept of significant threat to the safety of the public, which is a current test for determining whether a review board can maintain its jurisdiction and continue to supervise a mentally disordered accused.

The bill would clarify the fact that restrictions could be imposed on an accused who presents a public safety risk of a criminal nature, though not necessarily of a violent nature.

Protecting the public and victims of crime and violence is obviously a good thing. Everyone probably already knows this, but crime has its most direct impact on victims in every respect: physically, emotionally, spiritually and financially.

From a financial perspective alone, many researchers have attempted to estimate the intangible costs borne by victims of crime, but none of the studies are official. Still, most agree that the intangible costs are often the most onerous ones for victims.

Of the total estimated costs, $14.3 billion was incurred as a direct result of crime for such items as medical attention, hospitalization, lost wages, missed school days and stolen or damaged property.

While crime has its most significant impact on victims, others around them suffer as well. In its 2008 report entitled “Costs of Crime in Canada”, the Department of Justice estimated that intangible costs were about $68.2 billion, which increased the total cost of crime to $99.6 billion. That is astounding.

However, even though this bill is important and may help victims, we have to keep things in perspective. We have to act according to facts, not fear. For example, in Ontario, Canada's most populous province, only 0.001% of individuals accused of a Criminal Code offence were deemed not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. The recidivism rate for these individuals is between 2.5% and 7.5%, while the recidivism rate for other federal offenders is between 41% and 44%.

Contrary to what the government would have Canadians believe, there is not necessarily a correlation between the seriousness of a crime and the likelihood that the offender will reoffend or his ability to improve his mental health and live a normal, happy life.

Some recent high-profile cases suggest that the current approach may not be effective. Like my NDP colleagues, I would like to know how we can help the victims in the process. To figure out the best approaches, we need to talk to mental health experts, victims and the provinces.

It is also important to avoid politicizing this issue. We have to study the merits of the policy, and that study must be properly financed by the federal government.

In such a study it seems to me that it would be important to ask some of the following questions, as did my hon. Liberal colleague from Mount Royal.

What studies, case law and theoretical sources did the government rely in drafting this bill? What statistics did the government collect on persons deemed not criminally responsible on account of mental disorders? For each of the past 10 years by province, territory and type of offence, how many people were deemed not criminally responsible? Which persons deemed not criminally responsible and discharged were found guilty of a subsequent offence? What was the nature of the subsequent offence? What persons deemed not criminally responsible and discharged were deemed not criminally responsible for a subsequent offence? What was the nature of that subsequent offence?

With good answers and data on these questions, we as legislatures would be far more informed to ensure that the legislation passed was well crafted and would do the job we needed it to do.

We in the official opposition, despite supporting the bill at second reading, still have a few unanswered questions, which we hope the government will attempt to answer in the months ahead.

We agree that public safety must come first, but we must also ensure proper compliance with the rule of law and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We are open to change, but we must also ensure that the way in which we handle cases involving mentally disordered accused persons is effective in terms of the treatment of mental disorders. To that end, we must ensure that the provinces have adequate financial resources since they are the ones ultimately managing the situation.

With regard to the charter, we must always be careful that in our zeal to protect our fellow citizens we do not harm hard-won civil rights. It would be helpful to know whether Bill C-54 was reviewed by the Department of Justice to ensure its compliance with the charter and what measures the government took to prevent charter challenges concerning persons deemed not criminally responsible. If there was indeed a review, what were the review's findings?

I also wonder, on the role of victims, if consideration has been given to the fact that some people are unable to confront criminals who have victimized them. I mentioned the enormous cost burden to victims earlier because I also wonder why there are no provisions being made in the bill for more resources for the victims who have to live with the consequences of these criminal acts.

Also, what about financial support to the provinces? Is this new policy not being developed on the backs of the provinces? A spokesperson for the Department of Justice stated that the provinces would not receive any additional funding to address these new measures, yet we know there will be costs involved.

Despite these reservations, I agree that in order to protect our fellow citizens, there is a need for a mechanism by which certain individuals who are found not criminally responsible on account of a mental disorder may be declared high risk. I also agree that there should be an increase in the involvement of victims in this process. These are the reasons why I support the bill at second reading.

Truly, the voice of the voiceless should never be silenced, which is why I am happy again to support the bill at second reading.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:55 a.m.
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NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Speaker, the matter we are discussing today in connection with Bill C-54 is very sensitive, in light of all the issues raised in the House.

We are clearly talking about crimes committed. We are also talking about the criminal responsibility of people ultimately deemed to be not criminally responsible.

We have already said that we will vote in favour of this bill at second reading, because we believe that it deserves to be reviewed in committee. However, I heard a few questions from government members, and I am concerned about how this issue is being dealt with.

Of course, it is a sensitive issue and it has to be handled with great tact. However, I really feel that the government is behaving as if it wants to make the issue much more political than it ought to be, especially if we truly want to examine it with cool heads. The government has addressed the issue twice at news conferences, announcing the bill to the media and the public.

I would like to hear what the hon. member has to say about the need for careful, reasoned and rational consideration of this issue.

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:55 a.m.
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NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his question. It is a very important question, because it touches on the substance of the issue.

Any decision or piece of legislation needs to be based on facts and science. We are wondering whether a consultation with stakeholders has been held.

For instance, have Canadian associations of psychiatrists and psychologists been consulted? These are crime experts. Have professors, scientists, criminologists and lawyers been consulted? The list is—

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April 26th, 2013 / 10:55 a.m.
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Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I must interrupt the hon. member because it is 11 a.m. and we must proceed with statements by members.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:10 p.m.
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NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say first that I will be splitting my time in debate.

I will speak to Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder). I would say from the outset that we support investigating this topic and we will vote for this proposal to move the bill to committee for study.

Before moving along further, I would like to thank the MP for Gatineau for her work on this file, and on many other files. I know the public safety and justice committees are some of the busiest here in the House of Commons, and she does great work, along with my benchmate, on these topics.

From a broad perspective, this is a very difficult issue for victims, families and communities in general. It is probably one of the most difficult issues any community must face: what to do when a member of that community is accused of perpetrating a heinous act, but is found by professional evaluation not to be of right mind. What to do with these individuals is really what we are trying to come to grips with here.

The sad truth is that I do not think there is any way that we will ever make a perfect decision. What we really have to do is try to figure out how to manage this in the best way possible and ensure that we do not make things worse than they already are.

Of course, we have to think of the victims first. We have to think of public safety. We also have to think of the broader communities in these senses and ask what is the best thing we can do to ensure that the community itself comes out as well as it can when we are dealing with these types of sad issues.

There is one bright spot, if we can call it a bright spot on this awful topic, and it is that through our health and social scientists, our criminologists and psychologists and psychiatrists, we probably know more about this issue than we have ever known in the past. My mind drifts back to the asylums of the 19th century, when people who were of healthy mind and body were incarcerated along with those who were criminally insane. We have gone well past that, knowing more about the causes of these mental shortcomings in the perpetrators of these acts, and also what to do to help victims recover. Through the good research of our professionals in this area, we are probably better equipped to deal with this problem than we ever have been in the past. This wealth of information should be used to help us make the best possible decisions in this area.

We are supporting moving this bill to committee because we need to have a reasoned and rational discussion. We need to bring in many experts and try to stay away from some of the partisan witnesses that sometimes parties are guilty of bringing to the committees. We should probably resist that and try to bring in the best experts we can in this area in order to have a reasoned discussion about what we should do in these cases and to evaluate the proposals being made in this particular bill. Therefore, I urge the government to listen to a wide range of experts when this inevitably comes to committee and to take the time to get it right.

In addition to the psychologists, psychiatrists and criminologists, we should also take time to hear other witnesses. Often the people who are affected by these awful crimes are also from marginalized communities, so we should hear from these community leaders, including first nations. My mind is always drawn to the awful events of British Columbia, whether it is Clifford Robert Olson or perhaps Willie Pickton. Many members of the community were affected by these awful crimes perpetrated by people who were found to be mentally deficient, and mental deficiency was the reason these people were perpetrating or involved in these crimes. We should ensure we talk to the people in the communities who were most affected, because they are the ones who now have the experience of working through how to heal from these awful events.

When we go to committee, we also have to be mindful that our actions are bound by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms establishes clear boundaries within which our laws must fall, so we should take care that we do not put new laws into place that would clearly violate the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

In addition to the criminologists, psychologists, psychiatrists and community members who come to committee, we should also make ensure there is the due diligence to make sure the laws we are bringing in do not violate any aspects of the charter. From the NDP perspective, public safety must come first on this issue, and we need to help the victims as much as possible. However, we have to make sure we are abiding by our primary law.

The issue at hand is to consider what to do when an accused is discharged. Increasing notification to victims and their families would seems like a reasonable thing to consider. If review boards would be able to issue non-communication orders with victims, keeping as much distance between the accused or somebody considered not criminally responsible and thus giving victims as much time as possible to recover, that is worth consideration. Even if there is no contact between the individuals, the peace of mind this might bring to victims is in itself well worth considering.

The bill would also create a new category of high-risk accused, and the review boards would have the option of tripling the length of time between reviews, from 12 months to 36 months. It is moving away from mandatory decisions imposed on judges and allowing the legal system to consider these cases in great detail.

I was reading some statistics by Mr. Chris Summerville, the alliance facilitator and chief executive officer of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, who stated, “In Canada's most populated province, Ontario, only .001% of individuals charged with Criminal Code violations were adjudicated [not criminally responsible for their actions]”. This law will affect a very small number of people, so we have to make sure we are also taking that into consideration.

We should also take care that when we are considering these and other types of similar bills that we do not try to hype up this issue at all. As is well documented in Canada, crime rates have fallen dramatically. Both violent crimes and crimes against property have fallen over the past couple of decades. While it is important to get these laws right, we do not want this type of debate making the public think that crime is somehow spiralling out of control.

With regard to victims who are affected by current crimes, we really have to do as much as we can to help them through these things. However, as public opinion will show, Canadians are more concerned about the economy, for example, than spiralling crime rates. While it is good to get these things right through reasoned debate, it should not be used as an excuse to try to scare the public into thinking that crime is at a higher rate than it has been in previous decades, because it is not.

When this goes to committee, New Democrats want to discuss the idea that public safety must come first, but any laws that are changed must comply with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We are open to change to ensure the way in which cases involving mentally disordered accused persons are handled is effective in terms of treatment. I note in the bill that this in no way should affect treatment. However, we have to make sure there is treatment in order to ensure the entire community is considered when we put these kinds of motions forward.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:15 p.m.
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NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, in theory, this legislation should help us support victims. The real question is whether or not resources will be made available.

That is a particularly important element. The bill has to be more than just words. We want this bill, which contains positive elements, to be a useful tool and not just empty words.

Could the member provide some information and assurances on that?

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:20 p.m.
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NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question. I thank my colleague for it and the other excellent questions he has asked in the House.

I think a full costing of the bill would be a perfect thing to consider on committee . However, it should not just say how much it would cost in total but who would bear the cost. There is some thought that the provincial governments would bear some of the cost of these changes. They should also be consulted and perhaps brought in to committee to discuss whether they are willing to go forward with this.

Again, in principle this is a good bill, but we need to get these details right.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:20 p.m.
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Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I think it is very important for us to recognize that many pieces of legislation we do pass in the House of Commons have cost ramifications on different levels of government. With this particular bill, we are dealing with two issues. One is on our institutions and the other on mental illness, both of which would have substantial costs for the provinces and their treasury boards.

There is the expectation that prior to bringing in legislation the government would have done some form of consultation with the stakeholders to get a better sense of those cost ramifications. My colleague from Mount Royal, in speaking earlier on this bill and bills of a similar nature, raised the fact that we need to get more information from the government on the preparatory work that is done in order to evaluate and make good decisions. Another colleague earlier made reference to the important issue of having the facts on the table.

Could the member provide comment in terms of how important it is that government, when it brings forward legislation, brings the statistics and facts so that politicians can make good decisions?

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:20 p.m.
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NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, again, this is why we are supporting this bill going through at second reading.

It would be good if the government were more straightforward with costs, and we are finding deficiencies all over the place in that respect. In fact, I was on committee the other day asking about science budgets. I am finding that the information the government is providing does not actually reflect what is happening on that file.

It is a constant disappointment for us that we do not get costing upfront. Hopefully in this committee study the government will see fit to do this, or perhaps we could ask the Parliamentary Budget Officer to help out.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:20 p.m.
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NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for his speech. He raised some very interesting points.

Have the people in his riding spoken to him about this bill? What do they think? Do they think we should be supporting it?

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:20 p.m.
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NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Mr. Speaker, crime in my riding, as in any community, is something that is talked about. I have had very good meetings with the RCMP in my riding—although I am not sure I am allowed to anymore—and we have talked about how to strengthen the community. However, what we are talking about here is an extraordinary circumstance. It is a very small segment of the population that this bill would impact.

We do talk about these horrific cases, but we have not had one in our community. The missing women inquiry did look at Burnaby to some extent because we had some traffic going from Vancouver to Coquitlam through my riding. However, luckily we have not had an issue other than that one to talk about.

Generally, we talk about it, and I am sure my community will support looking at this in a reasoned way.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:20 p.m.
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NDP

Manon Perreault NDP Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act. This bill is about people found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. Specifically, this bill would change the mental disorder regime relating to accused individuals found unfit to stand trial or not criminally responsible.

As such, the bill amends the mental disorder regime in the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act to specify that the paramount consideration in the decision-making process is the safety of the public. It creates a scheme for finding that certain persons who have been found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder are high-risk accused. It also enhances the involvement of victims in the regime and makes procedural and technical amendments.

This bill contains provisions to change how cases involving individuals who are not criminally responsible are dealt with.

Review boards have to consider public safety above all. Requirements to notify victims and their families when a not criminally responsible accused is discharged will be enhanced. Review boards will have the power to issue non-communications orders with victims. This bill enables the courts to designate an accused as high risk.

Review boards will have the option, not the obligation, to triple the length of time between reviews from 12 to 36 months. The bill will limit the number of community visits for high-risk accused and detail the release conditions.

Basically, there are three amendments: putting public safety first, creating a high-risk not criminally responsible accused designation, and enhancing victims' involvement.

With respect to putting public safety first, the legislative amendments in this bill would make public safety the paramount consideration in the courts and during the review boards' decision-making process relating to accused persons found to be not criminally responsible or unfit to stand trial.

This bill would amend the Criminal Code in order to create a scheme for finding that certain people who have been found not criminally responsible are high-risk accused. Under the scheme, the accused would be deemed to be high risk if he was found not criminally responsible of serious bodily harm and there is a strong possibility that he would commit other acts of violence that would endanger the public, or if the acts he committed were of such a brutal nature as to indicate a risk of grave harm to the public.

Those who would fall into this category would therefore be unable to get a conditional or absolute discharge, would not be authorized visit the community without an escort and would be extremely limited in their escorted absences. However, these people would have the right to treatment.

This would therefore be a way of explaining how an accused can have restrictions imposed on him when he poses a criminal threat to public safety even though it is not necessarily a violent threat.

The third component of the amendments in this bill deals with enhancing the involvement of victims. This part seeks to enhance the security of victims by offering them more opportunities to participate in the mental disorder regime in the Criminal Code. The victims would thereby have the possibility of being informed when the accused is discharged. The bill also provides for non-communication orders between the accused and the victim. Finally, the safety of victims would be taken into consideration in cases where decisions are to be made about the accused.

Although the provisions of the proposed bill would help to ensure that the law is interpreted and applied more consistently across the country, there is cause for concern about the impact this bill will have across the country. The provinces must not be forced to foot the bill for this policy.

As we saw in the main provisions of this bill, it is important to note that the bill addresses an issue that is very difficult for victims, families and communities.

We must ensure that protecting public safety is a priority while abiding by the rule of law and respecting the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

What matters most is knowing how we can help victims in this process. They are an integral part of all the questions raised by the bill and the changes included in it.

We will therefore support the bill so that we can examine it more thoroughly in committee. In order to shed some light on the bill, we will need to hear from mental health experts, some victims, as well as the provinces, in order to determine which approach would be best. This is not a question of playing political games, but rather properly studying the merits of the policy.

Considering the extensive media coverage that certain crimes receive, we must try to avoid fueling the public's fears and increasing the negative stigma attached to mental illness. This would be completely counterproductive because it would undermine the reintegration of these individuals and, at the same time, do absolutely nothing to enhance public safety. It would only make the situation worse.

As I said earlier, we must make public safety our top priority, while respecting the rule of law and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. That being said, in the context of this bill, it is critically important that we make sure that the cases of defendants with mental disorders are managed effectively and that their mental disorders are treated. This bill should be based on consultation and co-operation with mental health experts. Our justice system and our mental health system need to operate effectively. In that regard, we will have to rely a great deal on the advice of mental health experts, some of whom have already expressed their reservations about this bill.

Furthermore, the question of cost also needs to be considered. In Canada, the full cost that flows directly from criminal acts is already too much for the provinces to bear. We must not increase their financial burden without ensuring that they have the necessary resources, which is clearly not the case.

According to Chris Summerville, the chief executive officer of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, in Ontario, only 0.001% of those charged with Criminal Code offences were deemed to be not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. Furthermore, between 2.5% and 7.5% of them reoffend, compared to 41% to 44% of federal offenders. It is obvious that, contrary to what the Conservatives would have Canadians believe, the seriousness of a crime is not a gauge of the likelihood that these people will reoffend, or even their ability to improve their mental health and live a normal, healthy life.

The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, which would handle such cases in Ontario, currently has an occupancy rate of roughly 104%, which leads us back to the issue of the burden and the cost to the provinces. We must ensure that the provinces have proper funding because they will be managing these cases. The federal government is responsible for properly funding this policy.

To summarize, we agree with the spirit of this bill, but we do not want the government to try to use this issue to score political points. On the contrary, this bill needs to be studied carefully because of what is at stake.

Understandably, this is a very difficult issue for victims, families and the community. Naturally, public safety comes first. We also have to comply with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. No matter what we have to say about mental health, we must be careful that we do not exacerbate or heighten the stigma of mental illness.

We know that we could meet with mental health experts, but we should also consult victims living in the provinces.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:30 p.m.
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NDP

Alain Giguère NDP Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, my distinguished colleague gave a wonderful speech, particularly in terms of advocating for victims. Unfortunately, all too often we forget those people who suffer tremendously.

We also forget that mental illness is a burden for those living with it. Mental illnesses are not something people want.

Could my distinguished colleague perhaps explain how this bill—with some amendments—will ensure that people who suffer from those illnesses receive real support in order to prevent irrational actions?

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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NDP

Manon Perreault NDP Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

We must bear in mind a number of things. Mental illnesses are not only difficult for those suffering from them, but also for their families and friends.

It would probably be a good idea to consult with experts who can provide us with their insight. Perhaps we could even consult with the victims, as I said earlier.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Mr. Speaker, the more we dig into it, the more we find things about the bill that are not that easy to deal with.

Right now most people who are found not criminally responsible are not subject to a trial as a result of agreements that are made between the courts and the lawyers. With defendants now facing three years in confinement before being eligible for a hearing, they may just simply decide to go to trial and be put in jail if found guilty as there is a likelihood of that happening.

The recidivism rate for people with mental disorders who commit crimes who go to jail is some exponential figure that is higher than those who are treated outside of jail.

How do you think this will play out in the long term? Will this work in our favour with respect to costs and the ability to protect society with such a high rate of recidivism among those who actually go to jail?

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Before I go to the member for Montcalm, I would just remind all hon. members to direct their comments and questions to the Chair rather than to their colleagues.

The hon. member for Montcalm.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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NDP

Manon Perreault NDP Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

As I said earlier, in cases dealing with mental health issues, the recidivism rate is still very low. We must be careful not to jump to conclusions. Our actions must not create even more prejudices against those people. There is always room for a little respect in life. Those people are already suffering a great deal.

I would like to see an approach that would make it possible to invite and consult with experts and victims to ensure that no mistakes are made in rulings.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to my colleague who works very hard in her riding. I congratulate her. Her speech was very enlightening.

I would like to focus on the burden this will place on the provinces. If we are talking about making the process more complicated, the provinces are the ones that will end up footing a large part of the bill.

How can the provinces participate? We will support this bill for the time being so that it can go to committee, so that it can be debated and so that we can hear from witnesses.

Would the provinces be able to testify in committee so we can hear what they think about their potential new responsibilities?

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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NDP

Manon Perreault NDP Montcalm, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

If we want to put this burden on the provinces, we will have to first find out whether the provinces have the financial means to support it. The best way to do so would be to meet with each province and with the experts who can answer that question.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:35 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I have wanted to speak to the bill for a little while now. It is really important to me and the folks at home in Halifax because of an incident that happened not too long ago in my community.

Last April, Halifax was shaken to its core with the news of a death in our community. I was at home listening to the radio that morning and heard that a man had been murdered on Gottingen Street in the early morning hours, just steps away from my community office.

I went to work that morning and saw the police tape, and do not know exactly I hoped for. What do we hope? Do we hope it is not someone we know? Does that make it better somehow? Do we hope there is not more bad news? I do not know what I was hoping for, but I was certainly hopeful that morning. Then I received a phone call from my friend Scott with the worst possible news, that the victim was our friend Raymond Taavel.

Raymond had left a bar across the street in the early morning hours and right across the street was a fight between two men. Raymond tried to intervene in that fight and one of the men beat Raymond to death.

Raymond Taavel was a community activist and he was an advocate. He worked on a range of issues to make our community better and stronger. He was very active in Fair Vote Canada. He really believed in democracy, but he also believed that our parliamentary democracy could be improved. He was very passionate about things like proportional representation, for example. He made sure people voted.

He grew up in Sault Ste. Marie and even in high school, he was a member of the model parliament. He was so passionate about our democracy. He was a queer rights activist. He wrote for Wayves, which is I think how I met Raymond. He would do a lot of articles for Wayves, which is our Nova Scotia queer issues magazine. He would cover all kinds of different things in that magazine and showed what was happening in our community related to the broader issues in the Rainbow community and vice versa, quite frankly.

He worked with Shambhala Sun magazine, a Buddhist magazine that is created in Halifax. He was at everything. Some people lead by being at the podium and having a megaphone in their hand. Other people lead by being there, by helping to pass out the flyers, by pointing to our friends and community members and telling them that they should go to a certain event, that it was important and that they needed to be there. He was incredibly special.

Raymond was a big pain in my backside, a lot. He wrote me emails. Even though he was a big fan of mine and supported me in the election, he wrote me emails when I did things he did not agree with and he took me to task on all kinds of stuff. He would tell me there was an action happening, or a rally or gathering that was important and that I should be there. He was there for us in our community.

Raymond intervened in a fight and he was murdered. The news came out and we did not know what had gone on, but then we found out that a man named Andre Noel Denny had been charged.

Andre Noel Denny is a very troubled man who has had a troubling past. He had been charged with many crimes such as aggravated sexual assault, property destruction and charges having to do with cruelty to animals and was found not criminally responsible.

The judge, at the time, ruled that the best thing for Mr. Denny was to have treatment at the East Coast Forensic Hospital, in Dartmouth. He went there and, eventually, was fit to stand trial, but then was found not criminally responsible for all those charges against him.

During his time at the East Coast Forensic Hospital, on April 16, he was given a leave, a pass, I think it was a two-hour pass, to leave the hospital. He did leave the hospital, was out in our community and did not come back that evening. That is the night that Raymond was murdered.

This issue is so real in our community right now. On the evening after Raymond's murder, our whole community came out to Gottingen Street. There was a beautiful rally, with everybody there, and beautiful speeches. I am so proud of my community because nobody came forward with their pitchforks. No one came forward with a rallying cry of “We've gotta get this guy” or “We've gotta hang him high”. My community came forward in a peaceful way, in a loving way, in a sad but thoughtful way, in a really thoughtful way. I do not know if I can describe how important that has been to us as a community to heal and to take this issue on. People are taking this issue on in an incredibly thoughtful way.

It is interesting. Some of the media actually got out of the gates. It was quite sensational. The community clamped down and said, “No. That's not acceptable. This isn't sensational. This is a tragedy.” It is extremely complicated because while we lost our friend Raymond that night, while Halifax lost an incredible community activist, Andre Noel Denny is a real person; he is a real person who is troubled. He has multiple mental illness diagnoses. He comes from a community that, let us be frank, failed him. My community of Halifax felt compassion. Maybe we felt compassion because of Raymond Taavel. Maybe we felt that compassion because that actually is what Raymond would have said about his murderer. Maybe we shone and were the best that we could be and the most compassionate that we could be because it was Raymond and because we knew how he would have reacted, even to his own murderer.

There has been a tremendous community response. It has been positive and, like I said, very thoughtful. It has really brought us together in a way that I could never have imagined such a tragedy could have brought us together.

As a result, anything to do with changing legislation around the issue of being not criminally responsible hits home for us in Halifax.

I have read the bill with great interest, with a keen eye to what it means for us, to what it could have meant for Raymond, what it might continue to mean for Mr. Denny. I think it is important to go through what the bill would actually do. I know folks at home will want to know what this means. I was contacted by Raymond's partner very recently who said, “Hey, what do you think, Megan? What does this bill do?”

Let us start there.

The bill would look at changing the way that cases that involve not criminally responsible accused are examined. This is a small number of people, which is important to note. I am very wary of making policy because of one or two cases. However, we do need to review these cases when they occur.

It says that review boards would have to consider public safety first and foremost and that when the accused is discharged there would be an increase in this obligation to notify victims and their families. It would also allow review boards to have the power to issue non-communications orders with victims. It interestingly creates a new category called “high-risk accused” that can be designated by the court. I think we need to explore that new category.

I am going to support the bill at second reading. I want to hear from people at committee. I do want to explore this entire bill, but in particular this new category of high-risk accused. I am not sure it will do what we need it to do, but it is a conversation worth having.

If people are designated high-risk accused, review boards would have the option, and I think it is important to say they would not have the obligation, but the option, to triple the length of time between reviews from 12 months to 36 months. It would limit the number of community visits for high-risk accused and detail the release conditions.

Section 672.54 of the Criminal Code says that courts or review boards have to take into consideration “the need to protect the public from dangerous persons, the mental condition of the accused, the reintegration of the accused into society and the other needs of the accused”.

The bill comes to us because of a number of high-profile incidents that serve as the basis for the bill. These kinds of incidents, whether it is Raymond Taavel's situation or other situations, are highlighted by intense media coverage and it makes it easy to stoke public opinion and get people inflamed about issues. It makes it easy to think that this is widespread, that everywhere we go, around each corner, there is going to be another not criminally responsible threat waiting and lurking, but the reality is that very few people who are charged with the Criminal Code violations are deemed not criminally responsible.

For example, in Ontario, the rate is only .001%. Reoffending rates for not criminally responsible individuals range from 2.5% to 7.5%. These numbers are far lower than those of federal offenders in the regular justice system at the rate of 41% to 44%, so that needs to be taken into consideration. That is the context that we actually have to examine the provisions of Bill C-54. We have to examine closely whether it is necessary to introduce this law and make these changes or if it would even be effective in increasing public safety.

As I said, I am going to support the bill. I am open to change, but we have to ensure that the way in which we handle cases involving mentally disordered accused persons is effective in terms of the treatment of mental disorders. If we do not look carefully at the implications of the bill, these changes could unnecessarily heighten the public's fears, they could increase the stigma around mental illness and ultimately undermine the reintegration of not criminally responsible individuals without actually increasing public safety, which is the policy goal here.

With high-risk accused it is very important for this category to be very clearly defined. Also, obviously, it needs to ensure the implementation of that category would comply with both the rule of law and with the charter. The first proposed amendment to the mental disorder regime concerns public safety. It would explicitly make public safety the paramount consideration in the court and the review board decision-making process relating to accused persons found to be not criminally responsible or unfit to stand trial.

I was talking about section 672.54 of the Criminal Code and it states that, “the need to protect the public from dangerous persons, the mental condition of the accused, the reintegration of the accused into society and the other needs of the accused” are all considerations that the review board has to look at.

If that is the backdrop then what would be the difference between this legislation and the current regime? Do the courts and review boards not already take public safety considerations into their decisions? Does the Criminal Code not already adequately address the scope of issues concerning not criminally responsible people within our justice system?

This is a difficult issue for victims, families and communities. I am probably living proof of that. We want to know how we can help victims through this process. Would this legislation actually have the desired impact of supporting victims, of protecting victims from re-victimization?

This legislation could enhance the safety of victims and provide them with opportunities for greater involvement in the Criminal Code mental disorder regime by ensuring that they are notified when the accused is discharged, allowing those non-communication orders between the accused and the victim, and ensuring that the safety of victims is considered when decisions are being made about an accused person. We do have to examine those implications because, like I said, this could have positive impacts on those victims, but the key word is “could”.

There are a lot of incredible people doing amazing work on mental disability law. I think of Archie Kaiser at Dalhousie law school in particular who was one of my professors. At committee we could ask him what it means, what the implications would be, and whether there are implications we have not thought of. We have to look at those implications and the logistics. We have to look at the legality of changes. We also have to keep in mind that those who are found not criminally responsible are neither acquitted nor convicted.

I do want to talk a bit about the financial impact of crime borne by victims. The total estimated cost of $14.3 billion was incurred as a direct result of crime for such items as medical attention, hospitalization, lost wages, missed school days or stolen and damaged property. This does not include the intangible costs borne by victims, which is estimated to be tens of billions of dollars. Bill C-54 ought to also address the financial needs of victims, and that is something that we do not see play out in our communities.

We want to make sure that the bill is based on substantive evidence and not just impulsive cosmetic changes.

We want to talk to mental health experts, victims and the provinces to find out what they believe is the best approach. It would be wise to talk to the Province of Nova Scotia because it is doing its own review of what happened in the Raymond Taavel case to see where those gaps are, not just in legislation but also in supports.

Sometimes it is not just about the law; sometimes it is not just about the Criminal Code. Sometimes it is about what is happening in our forensic hospitals; sometimes it is about support for victims, financial support and other kinds of support.

The key thing is that none of us in any party should play political games with this file. We really do need to focus on the policy merits of the bill.

Our justice critic has done some really good work already speaking to different experts around this issue. I was going to read some of the quotes from conversations that she has already had, but perhaps there will be more time to get that information out at committee when we call some of those people to testify.

People in Halifax are sad. It has been a sad year. We just marked the one year anniversary of Raymond Taavel's death recently by hanging pride flags in our windows across the city. We are sad, but we know that we can come together and work together as a community to figure out what the solutions are for our community. If any community can do it, it is Halifax. I am looking forward to hearing at committee whether or not this piece of legislation would be a part of that.

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April 26th, 2013 / 12:55 p.m.
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Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the speech from my hon. friend and neighbour from the riding of Halifax. I particularly appreciated her comments about the late Raymond Taavel. It was a tragedy that was felt throughout Nova Scotia and beyond, and I am glad she spoke about that. I know she spoke about it in a very heartfelt way.

I also know that, as a lawyer, she would have dealt with issues of criminal intent. As we learn at law school, in order for someone to be found guilty of a crime, he or she must have what is called mens rea. That is a Latin phrase which means that the person has to have the frame of mind or the criminal intent to commit a crime. I suppose in every criminal case that issue is normally dealt with.

I wonder if the member has had any cases that dealt with criminal responsibility and what her experience was in that regard. What does she think the Government of Canada can do to improve our mental health system so there are supports that can deal more effectively with these issues? At the same time, how do we protect the public?

I share the concerns about this legislation, and I also see that we have to figure out what can happen in the mental health system, et cetera, to make sure the public is protected.

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April 26th, 2013 / 1 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Halifax West for his question. He is a member of the Halifax community. He was there, and he knows how important this is to the folks at home.

I cannot answer his first question about my experience because I am not a lawyer. Everybody forgets that. I have a law degree and I worked as a community legal worker at Dalhousie Legal Aid, but I did not practise criminal law, so I cannot share any experiences of mens rea.

However, it certainly is a big topic in the study of law, whether or not a person actually knows what they are doing and has that awareness. That is the key thing when a person is found to be not criminally responsible. If a person did not know what they were doing, how could they take responsibility?

If we look at the criminal law, what is the purpose of it? It is to deter, to punish and to send the message to communities that this is what is acceptable and not acceptable. However, if we have someone whose mental health is in a state where they are barely even cognizant of being a member of that community, and they do not understand what is right and wrong, or even what they are doing, how do we address that? That is a mental health issue. I think we could certainly put more resources into that system.

Raymond Taavel did not have to die. That is a failure of our community, on lots of levels. I am not saying it was the failure of the East Coast Forensic Hospital, but it is a failure of our community and our mental health system overall.

Raymond's death could have been prevented if we could have had the political will to look the issue in the eye.

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April 26th, 2013 / 1 p.m.
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NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for her very heartfelt presentation. It is very difficult, when it is close to home, to stand back and take an objective view of legislation. At the same time, it is really important that we consider the very emotional aspects of this. Many of us have probably been touched by similar situations.

Before speaking to the bill, I took the time to talk to some of the organizations and entities that might be concerned about the legislation. I spoke with Elizabeth Fry Society and I spoke with a psychiatric association. Everyone I spoke to, and all the briefs I have looked at, said the same thing, that they are deeply frustrated that they were not consulted before the legislation was brought to the House. They also said they were hoping they would be brought forward as witnesses.

I wonder if the member for Halifax could speak to what kind of process she thinks is appropriate for the review of this legislation and who she thinks should be brought in. I presume she would support the idea that the government should be open to amendments as a result of the testimony of experts, and victims and their families, who come forward.

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April 26th, 2013 / 1 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her question. She raises a very good point about what we do here, how we consult, and what we expect.

First of all, I expect that Bill C-54 will take time. We need to spend time with it. We do not want to have closure. We do not want to have time allocation. We do not want to shut down debate on this. This is really complicated stuff. We should give this bill the respect it deserves by bringing in witnesses who may have different points of view. That is okay.

If we bring in victims organizations, organizations like the Elizabeth Fry Society, as my colleague mentioned, or the John Howard Society that works with offenders, or people who are mental health experts, they are probably not all going to agree.

However, with open discussion where we put aside those differences, I think we could come up something together. I do not think it has to be an either or, a partisan thing, or the Conservatives' “with us or against us” stand.

I think we should have a thoughtful adult discussion at committee about this. I hope we consult broadly. I know the NDP will be suggesting witnesses at committee. Hopefully we get to hear from all the witnesses we put forward.

This will take time. I think that most importantly we need to give this bill the respect it deserves at committee.

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April 26th, 2013 / 1:05 p.m.
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NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to first of all thank my colleague for her comments, and frankly for her amazing tribute to Raymond Taavel. I also want to thank her for the amazing tribute to her community of Halifax, the resilience of her community, the love for her community, the strength of her community, all of which we do not celebrate enough in this House when we talk about issues within our own riding boundaries.

I want her to know that the tragic death of Raymond Taavel was felt not just in Halifax, but indeed right across the country. I remember reading the story in the Hamilton Spectator. It touched a nerve. It left all of us feeling the loss, but also feeling the need to take concrete action.

I have to admit we were perhaps a little helpless in knowing exactly what needed to be done. I think there is an opportunity before us now to take that action. However, I think my colleague from Halifax is absolutely right; we cannot take that action in haste.

This is not an easy problem. It is a complex one. As my colleague from Edmonton—Strathcona has pointed out, we do need to hear from organizations like the Elizabeth Fry Society, and we need to hear from the John Howard Society. I would suggest that we also need to hear from our provincial partners.All too often in this House we march on as if the federal government were the only government that mattered. Consultation with our provincial partners, and in some instances municipal partners, seems to have become a bad thing somehow.

I think we would move forward in a much more positive way if we were to work collaboratively with other orders of government, and if we work together, in this case, with health experts.

I wonder whether my colleague could comment on whether she thinks the Nova Scotia government in particular might not have some very important things to say, as we continue collectively to want to pay tribute by doing the right thing now. They too shared the tragic loss of Raymond.

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April 26th, 2013 / 1:05 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Hamilton Mountain for her question, but also for her tribute in this House.

I know this story did go across the country, and it touched many of us because it was an important story to be told.

The Nova Scotia government is doing a good job right now of taking this issue very seriously. It has acted swiftly, but not like these guys across the House who act swiftly and hit something over the head with a hammer. They have acted swiftly to figure this out.

There was a strong message sent by government to say, “We will look at what happened. We will take it seriously. We will come up recommendations. We will figure out how we do this differently, better, and how to prevent deaths in the future.”

I suspect this is my last time up, so with the little time I have left, I want to share with this House that Raymond Taavel received a Diamond Jubilee medal this year. He was nominated by many members of our community for the incredible work he did as an activist in our community.

I was very proud this fall to go to Sault Ste. Marie to visit Raymond's family and present the medal to them. They are 100% on board with this. They are proud of Raymond. They are sad because they have lost their brother, their son. However, they also understand that this is complicated, that it does take time, and we do have to be thoughtful when we are coming up with solutions. I have the greatest respect for Raymond's family. They have been really incredible throughout this whole process, and they are a model to look to.

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April 26th, 2013 / 1:05 p.m.
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NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Mr. Speaker, let me first thank my colleague from Halifax for her extremely poignant speech, not from the perspective of a technical aspect of a bill but the reality of what it is like to live in a community where a crime that we are talking about, and on which this legislation would have an impact, occurred, and what it means to the community beyond the immediate family of a loved one who lost his or her life. In a very clear way, she has articulated what many of us feel when it comes to mental health, because mental health is such a difficult issue.

In a broader societal context, mental health, for far too long, was something that was pushed into a corner. No one wanted to say out loud that perhaps a loved one, a sister, brother, aunt, uncle, grandparent or parent, may have been suffering from mental illness. It was always the great taboo, “Don't say anything. Say nothing.” There was a stigma attached to it and a great embarrassment for families. As we look at this legislation, we have come a great distance from the day when we did not talk about loved ones who suffered from mental health issues.

No one on this side is suggesting that these acts are not of a magnitude that would horrify us all. All of us would agree that is absolutely true. It is not about saying that if a person is not criminally responsible because of a mental disorder, it would lessen the act. They are horrific acts. For the families of victims who lost their lives, reliving the horrific incident seems to go on and on in some cases. We need to be conscious about how we craft the legislation as it is for only a few people. These acts, thank goodness, rarely occur. Because they occur so rarely, it is that much more difficult to find the balance of how to approach it in law.

I knew a young man many years ago who was schizophrenic. Folks always talk about schizophrenics hearing voices. One day I told him people talked about that. This young man lived in housing with other schizophrenics, where there was support from counsellors and case workers to make sure they took their medications. I knew the young man had suffered from delusions and one day I asked, “When you hear those voices, what do you hear?” Amazingly enough, and I have heard it from other folks because I have been involved with the schizophrenia association for a long time, he said, “It's like 1,000 people standing on the edge of my ear, all screaming at the same time”. He never heard an instruction to do anything, he just heard 1,000 people on the edge of his ear screaming. The only time he got relief was when he slept.

For me, it was a very poignant moment, trying to understand exactly what was happening to that young man. He was about 21 or 22 years old. He does not hear those voices any more. He took his life when he was 23 because those voices would never go away for the rest of his life, and he knew that. He suffered from chronic schizophrenia and he was going to be suffering his entire life. For him, violence was not part of his life, but suffering was.

When we think about this legislation, we should word it in a way that understands schizophrenia because quite often many of the folks who are charged are suffering from it, but we do not then, in turn, point a finger, as the schizophrenia association has said, at all schizophrenics and think that we should avoid them, that they should be put somewhere because they may be a danger to us. We know the reality is that a person would more likely get run over by a bus than be attacked by someone who is schizophrenic.

That is how things might happen to a person, which should never take away from the fact that we are looking at a heinous act and that someone's life is lost.

That is why members have heard from this side, and I hope the Conservatives have heard, that this is a really complicated issue. It is not simplistic. It is about opening a door not knowing what is on the other side and having to deal with it, because it is multi-faceted and multi-layered. The science of mental disorders is ongoing. As therapies and treatments progress and we come to a greater understanding of the diagnosis, we can help folks not get to the place where some of these crimes are perpetrated.

My colleague from Halifax talked about the case just over a year ago. My colleague from British Columbia talked about Pickton and some other cases of a magnitude and scope that is, to use a term I have never used here before, gut-wrenching. When we hear about those cases or read about them in the news, the first thing we feel is ill. It is almost a tangible physical reaction. An individual might be thousands of kilometres away, as many of us were during the incident that happened in the Prairies when the young man was attacked on the bus, or the incident in Halifax a year ago. We may be across the country and not have actual knowledge of the victims or their families, but when we hear about it, we feel our stomachs turn upside down. That is a normal reaction. That is a fair reaction to have initially. However, for us as policy makers, we have to find a way to step back from that first reaction and deal with it. Too often, if we rush in, we may end up with a simplistic response, and there are no simple answers in mental health.

I have had a sense of how mental health works, partly because of some personal experiences around family and from knowing folks who work in it. Members of my family have been psychiatric nurses for a long time. I have been engaged with folks who have mental illnesses for probably going on 40 years now, when I think about my own personal family situation. How do we deal with this very troubling issue that gets pushed aside from time to time, especially in the public health field, which grapples with having enough funding to help the folks who need help? Is there a preventive piece? I am not sure if psychiatrists know if we could have prevented one or two of these incidents from happening through early diagnosis and treatment, constant monitoring, counselling and having a caseworker. We do not know that. Psychiatrists are uncertain as to whether that would happen. Because of that, I would look to the government to say that since we did not do all of that work in advance, this needs to go to committee.

As my colleagues have said earlier, and I know the government heard this, we intend to support the bill to get to second reading, because we want a comprehensive piece that speaks about the victims. They and their families should be paramount in our minds. On this side, we have no less a sense of what happens to the victims than anyone else in this House. No one has a lock on understanding victims. We all get this. I think this is one of those times in the House when we all understand the severity of these situations and what it means to families. However, we want to see legislation coming out of this process that will enable us to do things better than we are doing them now and to do them right.

We should not simply say that we should incarcerate someone because that will be a deterrent. I hate to say it, but someone who is suffering from mental illness would not understand what a deterrent is. Therefore, a longer sentence would not deter anyone.I understand that in sentencing those who have the ability to understand the crimes they have committed, we have sentencing that could perhaps deter. Criminologists can have that debate. I am not a criminologist. I will leave it for those experts to decide. However, I think we can all agree that those who would be found not criminally responsible would never know that there was a deterrent. In fact, the reason they are not criminally responsible is that they do not actually know that they have committed a crime and would therefore hardly see the deterrent as something in the way of their committing a crime.

We need to sit down and take the time. If the bill needs to be extended in committee, I think this House would agree to extend the time to study it. The bill needs to be looked at in a holistic way, from many perspectives. Good amendments should be welcomed by the government. This is a piece of legislation we should get right. When it is enacted, we should all feel good that we have done the right thing and have helped victims, because that is part of what I think this legislation should do.

This legislation should enable victims to understand that we as individuals have a great outpouring of emotion toward them. We cannot understand their anguish and hurt, because we have not suffered as such ourselves. As my colleague for Halifax quite clearly articulated, a whole community can grieve in a profound way because of the victims. We can all feel that and have a sense of standing with them and helping them rebuild after what has happened to a family member. At the same time, we understand our obligation to the broader society when it comes to the law, which is never easy to do, and I do not pretend that it is.

I know that we and the other side from time to time go back and forth about who is tougher. This is not an issue of who is tougher but of whether we can get the legislation right because of the complexity of someone being declared not criminally responsible because of a mental disorder. It is such a difficult issue. We all need to understand and be supportive, otherwise, when it comes to the broader community, there will be those who will say that the legislation either goes too far one way or does not support victims on the other side. I am hearing from all my colleagues here that this is not what we want to have happen. What we want is legislation that tells victims that we understand how they feel.

At the same time, in a legal way, we have to get it right when it comes to persons being tried and not convicted, because the reality is that they would neither be convicted nor acquitted; they would be found not criminally responsible. For those of us who are not lawyers, what does that mean exactly? Does it mean that they are neither here nor there, because they are deemed to be not criminally responsible? That is why this needs to be looked at so clearly.

We have talked about what the numbers are. The Schizophrenia Society of Canada has told us that 0.001% of those who have been charged with Criminal Code violations are deemed not criminally responsible by way of mental disorder. By now writing a law for such a small number, are we casting the net too wide? This number has been put out there a couple of times.

When people are deemed to be not criminally responsible, and they then receive a great deal of treatment while still under some form of incarceration, the rate of recidivism is much lower than it is for the general population in the criminal system in this country. It is anywhere from 2.5% to 7.5%, whereas the rate for the criminals in the regular system is 41% to 44%, which points out that those who are treated with the appropriate treatment are less likely to reoffend.

This week, when the Canadian Police Association was in town, I had the great joy of talking to a number of officers from my region. One of them was talking to me about mental health and what happens when officers come in contact with folks who have mental health issues. They have not committed or perpetrated crimes like this. Quite often it is public disorderliness. They may be in the middle of the street holding up traffic. Usually they have had a psychotic episode and they are off their meds for a while and need to be taken to the hospital. The officer was saying that the police need professionals to deal with those folks, because the officers are not the appropriate people. There has to be a level of expertise from professionals to help with folks who are more of a danger to themselves than to anyone else. What he pointed out to me was that it is not necessarily the police department that should have a major involvement inside the mental health system. It should be mental health professionals.

That is where the link has to be. I do not think we see that in this legislation. When we talk about the justice system, policing, mental health professionals and the health system, where do they intersect to help prevent these crimes in the first place? We need to find a way to work on that system to determine how we then deal with those folks in an appropriate manner. I was grateful for that conversation, because in my mind, it really crystallized for me where it is we should head with this piece of legislation.

We need to look to all of those folks who are already telling us that they want to work with the committee. They want to come forward and help by offering good, sound advice. They do not want to tear the legislation apart and throw it away; they want to help improve it and make it a good piece of legislation that truly works. If at committee the government would look for those answers and advice from those folks, even if they may not always have the answers people are looking for, it may find that when we are finished writing this legislation, we will be able to say that we have done the right thing for the victims, who are first and foremost in our minds.

As my colleague from Halifax pointed out, a year later the victim, through his community and his family, is still reaching out saying that we need to find a sound solution to the problem, not rush to any sort of judgment that ends up with legislation that would not help but might hinder.

I am not saying the legislation in its present form would, but we certainly want to ensure it works for all parties involved and actually gets through the justice system in a way that would make it a better place for it to do the work it needs to do.

As I said at the very beginning, ultimately the victims have to be paramount in minds of members. I know they are in ours.

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April 26th, 2013 / 1:30 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

It being 1:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

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May 27th, 2013 / 5:05 p.m.
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York—Simcoe Ontario

Conservative

Peter Van Loan ConservativeLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

moved:

That, in relation to Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder), not more than five further hours shall be allotted to the consideration of the second reading stage of the Bill; and

that, at the expiry of the five hours provided for the consideration of the second reading stage of the said Bill, any proceedings before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the purpose of this Order, and, in turn, every question necessary for the disposal of the said stage of the Bill shall be put forthwith and successively, without further debate or amendment.

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May 27th, 2013 / 5:05 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Pursuant to Standing Order 67(1), there will now be a 30-minute question period. I invite hon. members who wish to ask questions to rise in their places so the Chair has some idea of the number of members who wish to participate in the debate.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Gatineau.

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May 27th, 2013 / 5:05 p.m.
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NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure I should be thanking anyone. No more than an hour ago, I was rising in response to the 34th time allocation motion. Now here we are with another time allocation motion for Bill C-54.

I will not repeat what I said about Bill C-48. However, in the words of Captain Haddock “ten thousand thundering typhoons” that is quite the gang of “bashi-bazouk” across the way.

As far as Bill C-48 is concerned, I understood from the minister that it was extremely technical aspects that have been backlogged for over 10 years. Anyone who has read Bill C-54 knows that it is highly contested by experts in the field. I am talking about the Canadian Psychiatric Association and the Canadian Forensic Mental Health Network. Many people are questioning Bill C-54.

It is highly likely that the bill will ultimately pass, but we are only at second reading stage. The government is toying with extremely complex concepts having to do with mental disorders and being not criminally responsible. I think that 11 people at most have spoken on the subject, and the government is moving a time allocation motion.

I would like the Minister of Justice to say a few words about this to explain why the government thinks it is necessary to move a time allocation motion at this stage, when there has been no evidence of dilatory practice. I think that everyone has the right to speak to—

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May 27th, 2013 / 5:10 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

The hon. Minister of Justice.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:10 p.m.
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Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for her interest in this area and thank her for the question.

We introduced the bill, as members know, quite some time ago. I believe that the bill has been well received. Certainly my colleagues, victims groups and other individuals have had a look at this and were quite impressed by it.

Again, it has been some time since this whole area was updated. That being said, we have introduced the bill for second reading. The bill has been debated. The House leader, in his motion that we just heard, is going to allow another five hours. This is still at the second reading debate. Then—I think the hon. member would agree with me—we get this into committee and we hear from individuals who want to make comment on it. This is all for the good. We will get the bill into committee. We are not even at the third reading stage of the bill yet. So, again, there is quite a bit of discussion, quite a bit of analysis, but I think there has been a fair amount up to this point already.

As I say, I am generally pleased with all the comments we have received. The good thing is there is going to more debate, more analysis of this, and it is going to a committee. I look forward to hearing the witnesses who will be appearing at that time.

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May 27th, 2013 / 5:10 p.m.
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Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, the debate is not about this particular bill. The debate should be about the behaviour of the Conservative/Reform government.

There is a genuine lack of respect for due process. The current government, more than any other government before it, continues to use time allocation as a way in which to limit debate on important issues that are here and need to be debated. It is not appropriate. It is not accountable.

This is from the same government in which the Prime Minister goes into hiding when his Prime Minister's Office is being held up to question.

It is not appropriate behaviour. We are calling upon the government to do the right thing: to show and demonstrate some respect for this institution; to show some respect in terms of public accountability and the types of things that are supposed to be taking place inside this chamber.

My question for the minister is this. When is the government, the Conservative/Reform party, going to give the respect that is necessary for this chamber to be able to proceed into the future with dignity?

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May 27th, 2013 / 5:10 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, no party in the history of this country has had more respect for Parliament and its institutions than the Conservative Party. Do not take my word it. Ask any of the individuals here in the house. They will say the same thing, that we have a long record, a long history of that.

I have to say the government House leader—I am familiar with that role; I was the government House leader back in 2006—has great respect—

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:15 p.m.
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NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Huge, even.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:15 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thanks very much for that.

Again, Mr. Speaker, he has great respect for the institution of Parliament. He allows debate on all of these things.

However, we have to continue to move forward. The Canadian public is expecting us to move forward. These are important pieces of legislation.

The Liberals say this is not about this bill. Of course it is about this bill. This is better protecting Canadians, standing up for victims in this country. That is what this party is all about. We have made that a priority. That is exactly what we are doing, and that is exactly what we are going to continue to do.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:15 p.m.
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Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the minister for bringing forward government legislation like this, government legislation we called for when we were in opposition, government legislation that would enhance victims' rights. I remember that as the official opposition, we talked about the protection of society being the guiding principle. It is here in this legislation. The high-risk offender designation is also included in this legislation.

Concerns have been expressed about the potential for day passes or even longer passes, in some cases. Mentally disordered accused could be granted out-of-hospital passes. These are people accused under the jurisdiction of review boards who may pose a danger to society. In at least one recent case, such an unescorted absence from the hospital led to the killing of an innocent victim.

Could the minister please explain to the House how the bill aims to prevent such tragic incidents from occurring in the future?

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:15 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have that question. That question is about this legislation. That question is about what we are trying to do here.

One of the important changes we would make with this legislation would be to make it very clear that the protection of the public is paramount. That would be the very first consideration, the paramount consideration, when review boards were looking at this.

The member is alluding, as well, to the fact that we have a whole new designation, the high-risk offender designation. We are going to get out of the business, as it were, of escorted passes for individuals who get this designation. This designation is for a small group of highly dangerous individuals who have been designated so by the courts. They will be detained within the institution for their protection and for the public's protection unless the procedures outlined in the bill are followed.

I hear what the hon. member is saying. This is a definite improvement, and that is why I think the bill has been so well received.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:15 p.m.
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NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Speaker, the previous member's comments revealed exactly the reason we need to have an open debate on these bills. We see bill after bill brought forward by the government being overturned by the courts, generally speaking because of a charter challenge.

For as long as I am still in this place, we will still have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is absolutely critical, when the government comes forward with legislation, that it reviews the laws to make sure they adhere to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The reason to have open debate when we bring forward legislation is to make sure that we are balancing those interests. The last thing we want is to have laws that have the best of intentions but are not properly drafted and are thrown out when they finally come before the courts. That is all the more reason to have full debate in the House.

There has been occasion after occasion when we have found errors in a law, even though we have agreed with the intent of the law, generally speaking, and have tabled amendments. That is exactly why we have debate in the House of Commons.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:15 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, I completely disagree with the hon. member that all of these bills are being overturned. That is not the case. We are in court defending all of these when the matter arises, and we have been very successful.

What we are proposing, not just with this bill but with all of our criminal justice legislative agenda, are very reasonable pieces of legislation that would do the great thing, which is better protect victims in this country. Sometimes it is to increase justice efficiency to better protect victims and to make sure that individuals who are found guilty are held accountable.

We have a great record in terms of bills being sustained, because all of them get proper analysis before they are introduced in court so that they comply with the charter and with John Diefenbaker's Canadian Bill of Rights. We want to make sure that all of them are compliant with those, and all of them are. I am very confident that they will sustain any future challenge.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:20 p.m.
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NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Mr. Speaker, what the minister is doing is exactly what we want to do—that is, discuss the content of the bill. However, the content of the bill is not the current order of business. The current order of business is the fact that the debate is being cut short.

This is the 34th time the government has done this. For the sake of democracy, the government must give us a chance to discuss this, just as it replies and addresses its comments to its members. It was not speaking to you, Mr. Speaker, but rather to its members. You must have noticed this.

We want to have a debate. The government needs to stop shutting down debate and let us speak. In any case, we plan to support this. The Schizophrenia Society of Canada has asked for more time in order to meet with the minister on this issue. People also want to discuss it, and that is what we want to do.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:20 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to make it very clear that we have carefully analyzed this particular piece of legislation, and we have discussed it with groups and individuals for quite some time now. I have met with a number, particularly with victims groups, on what it is they want to see and some of the challenges they have had.

Again, we have had debate here in the House of Commons. As I pointed out to the justice critic for the NDP, the bill has been debated. We are going to have more hours of debate this evening. Then it will go to the committee. They can call witnesses before the committee. This is even before we get back to third reading in the House. We have not even gotten to that. Again, there is plenty of time for debate.

What I will not agree with the NDP on is that we should continue to debate on and on. Again, with respect to our criminal justice legislation, many times the NDP members, to be fair, either completely oppose it and are upfront about that or say that it must be debated ad infinitum and on forever. I disagree with that approach.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:20 p.m.
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NDP

Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would simply like to ask the minister if he believes that it is a majority government's prerogative to introduce time allocation motions whenever it wants. I find this to be completely undemocratic behaviour that shows utter contempt for this House, parliamentarians and Canadians.

My question is simple. I would like to hear the minister explain to Canadians why he is introducing this time allocation motion.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:20 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member asked what the prerogatives of a majority government are. I think the prerogative is the same for all governments that are elected, and that is to do and deliver to Canadians what Canadians were promised in the previous election. That is exactly what we have done. We have made it very clear in every election that with respect to our criminal justice legislation, better protection of the public would be a priority.

Every single election we have made that promise. We have been upfront with Canadians about that. The great thing about that is that our support has grown in every single election. More and more Canadians are joining us in every single election and are saying that we are on the right track when we stand up for victims in this country and when we make individuals accountable for the crimes they commit.

I am so grateful to the people of this country who have given us a majority government. I can promise them that we will deliver on exactly what we promised in the last election.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:20 p.m.
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Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, the victims of some convicted individuals who were found not criminally responsible are concerned that inadequate consideration is being given to their safety by review boards when decisions are made regarding mentally disordered accused people.

Victims have also raised concerns about the fact that they may have no way of knowing when an accused is released, maybe into their own communities. They are afraid that they might bump into them on the street or on some other unexpected occasion.

Could the minister please explain how this bill better responds to those kinds of concerns and the needs of the victims?

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:20 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, again, victims can currently attend hearings and present victim impact statements when these matters are before the provincial review boards.

We want to go further than that. We want to make it explicit that the safety of victims, first of all, must be considered in the whole process and that individuals who want to be notified if and when these individuals are released or escorted into the community have that ability. It should not come as some sort of surprise if they see these individuals at a restaurant, downtown, at church or some other place where they were not expecting it.

We have to make sure that what we are doing aligns with those people who have been victimized and have done nothing wrong but have found themselves in the middle of this very difficult situation.

A major component of what we are doing is to better protect and illuminate and set out the rights victims have. Again, as I pointed out, it is consistent with what we have been doing with all our criminal legislation.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:25 p.m.
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NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Mr. Speaker, for the past little while, government members have been asking questions about the content of the bill, which is what we were supposed to debate during the time that was just taken away from us.

This is the second time allocation vote already this afternoon. Apparently, the government is going to give us five hours for second reading, which is not very much considering how important this bill is. If the government truly believed its bill was appropriate and would have a positive effect on victims, it would understand that we need enough time to consider and debate this bill thoroughly.

Does the government really believe that this bill does enough to help victims? Does it believe the bill will achieve the stated objectives? We do not know.

We know how things go in committee with this government. It has a majority, so it will call whatever witnesses it wants, and they will say what it wants to hear. It will limit the number of witnesses the opposition can call. We also expect to see another time allocation motion at third reading.

I have never heard a single group ask the government to adopt motions quickly and undemocratically. How can this government justify systematically acting this way and refusing to listen to the opposition?

We deserve to be heard. After all, the opposition parties in the House represent 60% of Canadians. This government seems to forget that every time it introduces a bill.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:25 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, there is one part on which I actually agree with the hon. member. She said that government MPs have been asking questions on the substance of the bill. That is wonderful. Again, this is the kind of input I have had over the last number of months. Every time I talk with my colleagues, they are worried about this whole issue and are very pleased that we are moving forward on it.

The hon. member said that she has not talked to any groups that are pushing forward with this. I would suggest that she sit down with victims groups. I have said this before to the NDP. If members want to hear an excellent analysis of these different pieces of legislation, I say that they should sit down with victims groups, as I have when I have gone across this country. They will tell you that we are on the right track with these initiatives and that a bill like this better protects victims. It is consistent with all of the other pieces of legislation. If they are looking for groups that like these government bills, I always say to start with victims. That is a good place to start and sometimes to end.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:25 p.m.
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NDP

Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC

Mr. Speaker, I just got it. I just had a total revelation.

The minister does not understand the concept of a time allocation motion. The issue is whether the government is right to move a time allocation motion. This is not the time to debate the substance of the bill.

Perhaps five hours of debate would have been enough, but the government is constantly imposing this way of operating on us here in the House. In the long run, it becomes fairly absurd and undemocratic. That is one reason why we feel it is important to debate the bill a little longer than the five hours allotted.

When the minister introduced his bill—one of the rare times he has done so—he used tons of statistics. However, according to a study in Blacklock's Reporter, they were not even the right statistics. Therefore, it would be good for us to have more time for debate.

In fact, after taking part in the debate myself, I realize that members of the House would be able to ask more questions. If they could, then when we receive the bill in committee, we would be readier to do our job and we would not have to engage again in preliminary debates before being able to discuss the bill in committee.

This is completely undemocratic. While the minister is bragging about being there for victims, in reality he is laying it on thick but not giving them what they want.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:25 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, I agree with her that for the NDP, these things are always about procedures. I am very pleased with the fact that for government members, it is about the substance. It is about what is in the bills. That is what is important to them.

The member said that we are always pushing through our legislation. The government House leader has been very reasonable in terms of the debate. There has been a lot of debate. I believe that these debates often go until midnight. There is extra time now for members of Parliament to debate. They can argue about the procedure and talk about that forever, if they like, or at least until a vote on this matter.

I am glad so many government members are in the House this evening, because I appreciate the input they have given and their concern in this area. They are on the right track. I can tell them that.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:30 p.m.
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NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to hear the minister talk about the NDP wanting to talk about procedures when we have a government motion that has been introduced to talk about procedures. We are actually debating the motion the government introduced about time allocation. That is what it is asking us to talk about right now, not the substance of the bill.

It was interesting to hear the minister talk about how his goal was to fulfill the promises that the Conservatives made during that last election campaign, and some of the promises we heard were about openness, transparency and accountability. I am glad to hear the applause from the other side, because it would be wonderful if they actually followed up on those promises about openness, transparency and accountability. I believe in most Canadians' minds that those elements are all included in fulsome debate around legislation that can have profound impact.

The minister mentioned that the Conservatives have had a full study of the bill. Yet we have seen other government bills that come before the House that require amendment. That is the purpose of having debate around bills, to have a fulsome study and have witnesses called.

We have seen the Conservatives shut down witness testimony at committee. I wonder if the minister could commit today to allow full debate at committee with a full slate of witnesses who represent both the opposition and the government members.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:30 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, obviously committees are in charge of their own agenda. I see my parliamentary secretary here and other members of that committee, and they have done an outstanding job in terms of moving forward on these important pieces of legislation.

The hon. member is right when she said what we talked about in the last election. We were very clear in the last election that we would move forward with all the bills that we could not get through because the NDP, the Liberals and their other friends wanted to talk forever on these things and did not want to move forward on them.

Bill C-10 is the bill that cracks down on people who sexually exploit children, that cracks down on drug dealers. We indicated to Canadians in the last election that we were coming forward with this and we would get it passed within 100 days. We were on the right track with that bill, and this is part of that agenda of moving forward, standing up for victims and--

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:30 p.m.
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Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:30 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

Questions, the hon. member for Essex.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:30 p.m.
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Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, if we want to know where NDP members stand on a bill like Bill C-54, we should read all the speeches they have already given, because they are almost identical, speech after speech, the same rehashed talking points. What is the substantive point of moving the debate forward if they do not actually debate, they just read the same handful of talking points over and over again?

It is time to get on. We have heard plenty of what NDP members believe about this. They are on the wrong side of the issue on the substance of it, but it is time to get on with it. Let us get on to talking about this particular bill. We will hear the same handful of talking points again in the next few hours, I am sure about that.

Let us get on with it. What does the minister have to say about what NDP members will say over the next few hours?

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:30 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It is true, Mr. Speaker, that very often NDP members make the same point, the same arguments over and over again. To be fair, it is their right to do so. They can repeat themselves ad infinitum on these, but I think it is important for Canada that we move forward on these important pieces of legislation and get them enacted into law. This country is better off when we modernize the Criminal Code, increase justice efficiencies, when we hold offenders accountable for the crimes they have committed and when we better protect victims.

However, they can repeat the same arguments on all of these if they like. That is what democracy is all about. We obviously take a different approach.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:30 p.m.
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Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, we are now debating time allocation on the bill and the Conservative majority will get the time allocation they want. Whenever there is time allocation, the position I hold being a member of a party with one seat is that those of us in the backbenches over in this corner will not get any opportunity to participate in debate. Over and over again time allocation means that we do not get a speech on the key issues.

I am surprised the Minister of Justice believes the bill has been well received. I have seen from the experts in the area of mental health and the experts in criminal justice that there is no evidence whatsoever for the changes that are being proposed and that the bill needs a proper, full and thorough debate in this House.

I ask the Minister of Justice how he could miss the comments of Professor Anne Crocker, who did a report for his own department, and said, “I would say there’s no current evidence indicating the need for changing the way things are being done at the moment”.

Then she went on to say, “You wonder why you commission reports [referring to the Department of Justice] if you're not going to use them”.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:35 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, we have actually commissioned a couple of reports and I referred to some of the statistics in the final report that was given to us in November 2012. Indeed, there was one from 2006 that underscored some of the challenges that we have.

The member asks who we have been listening to. I make no bones about it, we have been listening to victims. We meet with victims groups. I would give the member the same advice that I would given to the NDP on a hundred different occasions. Sit down with victims groups across this country. I know members are busy and have lots of things to do, they have a constituency to look after. Even if they are down to one seat, as the Green Party is, they can still make time for victims groups across this country. I think they will be very impressed. I believe once having sat down with victims groups, members will be very supportive of what this government is doing to better protect victims.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:35 p.m.
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NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. This is a place of dignity. Every member in the House has a right to be here whether the minister likes it or not. I am not going to sit back and allow him to insult members who come here and have a right to be--

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:35 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

That is not really a point of order.

Questions, the hon. member for La Pointe-de-l'Île.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:35 p.m.
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NDP

Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague's speech on victims is quite respectable, but we are debating a time allocation motion.

I would like the minister to save his political propaganda for the Conservatives and tell us what he is going to say to the young people of my generation who have lost their confidence in politics and democratic institutions since the Conservatives were elected in 2011. What will he say to them after closure has been invoked 34 times? What will he say to young political science students who are told ad nauseam that Canadian democracy serves as an example? What will he say to these students and the young people watching us today who have lost confidence in this Parliament because of the Conservatives?

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:35 p.m.
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Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would tell those young people, as I have told young people, that it does not get any better anywhere in the world than right here in Canada. Nobody is fairer. Nobody has better, more open debates. Nobody is more reasonable. This country is an example of what the world should become. Indeed, all of these matters will be debated and since we are talking about this particular bill, yes, we can debate this again for five hours and I am open to questions. Members do not have to ask me anything about the substance. I appreciate this is a democracy. They can just ask me about procedure if they like.

But again, for me it is the content of this legislation that is very important. Once this debate goes for second reading, as I pointed out, it will go to committee, there will be witnesses and great debate. I have complete confidence in my parliamentary secretary and all those who work with him on the justice committee that there will be good and fulsome debate. I would say to the hon. member to tune into those debates. The good thing about CPAC is that it continues to broadcast those committee meetings over and over again. If people miss it once, they will have the opportunity to get it later on, and to see politics in action.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:35 p.m.
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Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wanted to know if the Minister of Justice had meant to use the word “fulsome”, which in relation to debate means noxious and disgusting?

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:35 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

Again, it is a matter of debate, not really a point of order.

It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith the question necessary to dispose of the motion now before the House.

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:40 p.m.
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Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:40 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:40 p.m.
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Some hon. members

Yea.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:40 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

All those opposed will please say nay.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:40 p.m.
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Some hon. members

Nay.

Bill C-54—Time Allocation MotionNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 5:40 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Vote #697

Not Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:20 p.m.
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Conservative

The Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I declare the motion carried.

The House resumed from April 26 consideration of the motion that Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:20 p.m.
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Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe New Brunswick

Conservative

Robert Goguen ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to participate in the second reading debate on Bill C-54, the not criminally responsible reform act. This is a legal policy issue that has preoccupied many Canadians, not only today but over the years.

Recent high profile cases in many parts of Canada have caused Canadians to question whether our laws in this area are strong enough or clear enough to ensure that the public is adequately protected when a risk to public safety exists.

In my remarks, I plan to outline the key milestones of Parliaments consideration of this issue. It is important to canvass the legislative history of the Criminal Code mental disorder regime in order to put today's debate into context, essentially to have a clear understanding of how Bill C-54 seeks to build on and improve the existing law.

What used to be referred to as the “insanity defence” was included in Canada's first Criminal Code, which was enacted in 1892. Even before then the defence existed at common law. It stemmed from a decision rendered in 1843 from the British House of Lords. The common law principle was known as the M'Naghten Rules, which stated:

—every man is to be presumed to be sane, and to possess a sufficient degree of reason to be responsible for his crimes, until the contrary be proved to their satisfaction; and that to establish a defence on the ground of insanity, it must be clearly proved that, at the time of the committing of the act, the party accused was labouring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing; or, if he did know it, that he did not know he was doing what was wrong.

The text of the first Criminal Code stated:

No person shall be convicted of an offence by reason of an act done or omitted by him when labouring under natural imbecility, or disease of the mind, to such an extent as to render him incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the act or omission, and of knowing that such act or omission was wrong.

This legislation continued to apply relatively unchanged and without much public debate for the first half of the 20th century.

In 1977, the Law Reform Commission of Canada produced a report to Parliament on mental disorder in the criminal process, which made 44 recommendations about procedures and dispositions for the mentally disordered offender. In order to consider and respond to the recommendations, the Department of Justice launched the mental disorder project in 1978. The review process led to the release of a discussion paper in 1983, exploring over 100 issues in the area of psychiatric remand, fitness to stand trial, the defence of insanity and criminal responsibility, just to name a few. A final report was produced in 1985, followed shortly thereafter by a draft bill that was introduced in the House of Commons by the then minister of justice John Crosbie.

The proposed amendments to the Criminal Code and the draft bill were the first formulation of what would eventually become the new Criminal Code mental disorder regime.

The proposed amendments sought to modernize and clarify the criminal law on mental disorder, strengthen due process and ensure the continued protection of the public. It proposed to change the law in a number of respects.

Under the law at the time, insane or unfit accused were held in strict custody under the pleasure of the lieutenant-governor of the province was known. There was not a requirement to hold a hearing and the lieutenant-governor's decisions, essentially the provincial cabinets, were not subject to appeal. Therefore, there were many gaps with respect to due process that needed to be remedied.

In 1986, the draft bill proposed to remove the role of lieutenant-governors in the process and to establish review boards in all jurisdictions, with uniform procedures to follow across the country. Another significant change in the draft bill was to replace the defence of insanity with the verdict of “not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder”. I will have more to say about that amendment in a moment.

Discussions and consultations with the provinces and territories on the draft bill and other intervening events resulted in the bill not being introduced until 1991 as Bill C-30. It proposed much of what was contained in the 1986 draft bill.

With respect to the previous defence of “not guilty by reason of insanity”, it is noteworthy to highlight the remarks of Kim Campbell, the then minister of justice, about that amendment. She said that a number of psychiatrists had indicated that persons found not guilty by reason of insanity deluded themselves into thinking that they had done nothing wrong and this presented an obstacle to therapy. She also explained that the previous wording was difficult for the public to understand how the accused could be found not guilty despite proof that he committed the offence. The “not guilty by reason of insanity” defence was therefore replaced with a verdict of “not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder”.

However, I think it fair to say that the public still has difficulty understanding a “not criminally responsible” verdict. I believe it is part of our job as parliamentarians to talk about the verdict and to help explain it to the public. Therefore, I would like to reiterate that the verdict of not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder is not an acquittal; nor is it a conviction; it is a special verdict that the court makes when it has been established that a person committed an act or made an omission that constitutes a criminal offence. What has also to be established as a legal issue for the court to determine is whether the person suffered from a mental disorder at the time of the commission of the act, or the omission, that rendered the person incapable of appreciating what he or she did or of knowing that it was wrong.

When the court enters a verdict of not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder, it does not release the accused. The accused is referred to a provincial or territorial review board that is responsible for making orders to govern how the accused will be dealt with.

Bill C-30 introduced three possible orders that could be put into place, depending on the level of risk posed by the person. Only if the person did not pose a significant threat to the public safety would the person be discharged without conditions. If the person posed a significant threat to the safety of the public, the person would be kept in custody in a hospital or discharged with conditions. The choice between custody or a conditional discharge is determined in accordance with the level of risk posed to the public safety.

Bill C-30 also introduced the factors that must be taken into consideration in deciding which order should be put in place. The section provides that the court or review board shall take into consideration the need to protect the public from dangerous persons, the mental condition of the accused, the reintegration of the accused into society and the other needs of the accused. This is a key provision of the Criminal Code mental disorder regime, as it guides the courts and review boards in their decision-making. It was introduced in 1991 by Bill C-30 to provide criteria and factors that did not previously exist in the legislation.

As I mentioned in the beginning of my remarks, I want to take some time to canvass the legislative history of the Criminal Code mental disorder regime in order to put Bill C-54 in context and to better understand how it seeks to build on and improve the existing law.

With respect to this key decision-making process, Bill C-54 proposes to clarify that among the existing listed factors that the courts and review boards must consider when they make decisions with respect to the mentally disordered accused, public safety is the paramount consideration.

In clause 9, it says:

When a court or Review Board makes a disposition... it shall, taking into account the safety of the public, which is the paramount consideration, the mental condition of the accused, the reintegration of the accused into society and the other needs of the accused, make...[the disposition] that is necessary and appropriate in the circumstances....

Bill C-54 would also clarify what is meant by the phrase “significant threat to the safety of the public”. In 1999, the case of Winko v. British Columbia (Forensic Psychiatric Institute), the Supreme Court of Canada interpreted that phrase to mean a risk of serious physical or psychological harm to members of the public resulting from conduct that is criminal in nature but not necessarily violent. Bill C-54 would codify the Supreme Court's interpretation.

The mental disorder regime that was introduced in 1992 included new rules and procedures with respect to appeals. I mentioned earlier that the previous law did not provide either party with a right of appeal of a lieutenant-governor's decision. Last year, the Court of Appeal for Ontario identified a problem with one of the appeal provisions in this part of the code. The Criminal Code currently states that when an absolute discharge is appealed, the absolute discharge is automatically suspended. In R. v. Kobzar, the Court of Appeal for Ontario found this automatic suspension to be in violation of sections 7 and 9 of the Charter, but suspended its order to allow Parliament to pass an amendment to correct the defect. The proposed reforms would eliminate the automatic suspension of the absolute discharge and instead would grant the Court of Appeal the discretionary power to suspend the absolute discharge if the mental condition of the accused justifies it.

I support the effort to clarify this area of the criminal law. The reform seeks to improve the existing legislative framework that guides decision-making when courts and review boards hear matters involving mentally disordered accused persons. Bill C-54 would help ensure more consistent interpretation and application of the law across the country. That is a valuable goal.

In my view, the proposed reforms are reasonable measures to take into consideration the protection of the public and to ensure confidence in our justice system. Mentally disordered accused will continue to receive treatment and have their cases overseen by the courts and review boards.

I encourage all members to support passage at second reading of Bill C-54. This would mean that it would be referred to committee for further study.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:30 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, given that it is focusing in part on victims in this bill, does the government intend to bring forward new programs to provide further assistance for victims?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:30 p.m.
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Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her question.

As she knows, the government already provides a wide range of services. When we study this bill in committee, it may very well be that evidence is presented that will lead us to consider even more carefully if there are gaps, if there are things that can be improved and if we can provide better services. We know that the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime is still waiting and is taking a hard look at this important issue.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:30 p.m.
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Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would certainly like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice for his speech in regard to this much-needed legislation. In fact, this is something that is of concern in my riding of Okanagan—Coquihalla, and was particularly so during the last election, when I was door-knocking. There was a tragic case of three children being murdered by their father in the city of Merritt, and this is still a very difficult issue for my riding.

The parliamentary secretary has certainly done a lot of work in supporting victims' rights, particularly with the victim surcharge. We have doubled that. Many opposition members chose to vote against that important legislation, but what I would like to ask the parliamentary secretary is not so much about victims' rights at this time.

We want to empower victims so they have more information, but we also want to empower the judiciary to be able to put forward high-risk designations. That allows for a check in an area that many victims have raised as a gap in the system.

I would like to hear the parliamentary secretary's comments on empowering the courts and also on helping victims to be protected through this legislation.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:35 p.m.
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Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Mr. Speaker, certainly the tragedy that occurred in his riding is an illustration of why this law has been brought forward, which is to make the protection of the public the paramount consideration when it comes to the release of mentally affected offenders.

Not all mentally-affected offenders will be given high-risk designations, but the court will always look at this question. In the event an offender is in fact a high-risk offender, much more security will be placed around that person, who will not be able to go on unescorted visits. Escorted visits will be for health reasons. Victims will always be informed upon their release, when and if that occurs, and there will be enough information so that victims can avoid encounters with the people whom they are absolutely terrified of.

This is all about one single thing: protecting the public while balancing the protection of the public with the rehabilitation of offenders and causing less of a disruption for the victims, who have basically been sentenced for the rest of their lives through circumstances beyond their control.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:35 p.m.
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NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have seen many bills go through the House in which financial obligations are passed on to provinces, cities or first nations. I want to ask the parliamentary secretary if he can assure the House that financial discussions have taken place with the provinces so that they are not left holding the bag. Who is responsible for carrying out the responsibilities for this bill, and will any federal transfers will be made to the provinces?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:35 p.m.
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Conservative

Robert Goguen Conservative Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Mr. Speaker, this bill was brought forward at the request of the provinces and territories because they have concerns for the safety of the public.

As to the costs, transfers to the provinces are at an all-time high. I believe it was $64 billion last year. There is a cost to protecting the public, and certainly in this case the provinces and territories have sought to get additional protection. It is, of course, within their purview to want to protect their public, as do we.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:35 p.m.
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NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier.

I stand in support of Bill C-54, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act in relation to mental disorder. The bill's short title is the “not criminally responsible reform act”.

To be more specific, New Democrats support the bill so that it can be further studied in committee. It merits further study.

Cutting to the chase, this bill amends the legislative framework applicable to mental disorder in the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act.

It amends the legislation to specify that the safety of the public is the paramount consideration in the decision-making process. I repeat, because this is key, that public safety must be paramount in the decision-making process.

The bill also creates a mechanism by which Canadians who are found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder may be declared high risk, and the bill increases the involvement of victims. I will have more to say about that in just a moment, but first I will provide an overview of the current Criminal Code mental disorder regime.

The current Criminal Code mental disorder regime applies to a small percentage of accused. Under Canadian criminal law, if an accused person cannot understand the nature of the trial or the consequences and cannot communicate with their lawyer on account of a mental disorder, the court will find that the person is unfit to stand trial. Then, once that person becomes fit to stand trial, they are tried for the offence with which they were initially charged.

At the same time, if a person is found to have committed an offence but, because of a mental disorder at the time, lacked the capacity to appreciate what they did or know that it was wrong, the court makes a special verdict of not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. They are either convicted or they are acquitted.

A person found either unfit to stand trial or not criminally responsible is referred to a provincial or territorial review board, and the board decides on the course of action.

Under the current law, a review board can make one of three possible decisions.

First, if the person does not pose a significant threat to public safety, there can be an absolute discharge. That is only available to a person found not criminally responsible.

The second possibility is a conditional discharge.

A third option that is open to a review board is detention in custody or detention in a hospital.

This bill proposes to amend the mental disorder regime in three ways. The first is by putting public safety first. I cannot stress that enough: public safety must come first. The changes proposed in this bill would explicitly make public safety the paramount consideration in the court and in the review board decision-making process.

Second, the legislation would amend the Criminal Code to create a process for the designation of those found not criminally responsible as “high risk”. That is the designation, “high risk”. That would be in the case when the accused person has been found not criminally responsible for a serious personal injury offence where there is a high likelihood for further violence that would endanger the public, or else in cases where the acts were of such a brutal nature as to constitute a risk of grave harm to the public.

As for what happens when a not criminally responsible person is designated high risk, they would not be granted a conditional or absolute discharge. That would not happen. Further, the designation of high risk would only be revoked by the court following a recommendation of the review board.

This bill outlines that a high-risk, not criminally responsible person would not be allowed to go into the community unescorted. Again, it is all about public safety. The escorted passes would only be allowed in narrow circumstances and subject to conditions sufficient to protect public safety. Also, the review board could decide to extend the review period for those designated high risk to up to every three years instead of annually.

The third way this bill proposes to amend the mental disorder regime is by enhancing the safety of the victims and by providing them with opportunities for greater involvement of the Criminal Code mental disorder regime in three ways.

First is by ensuring that they are notified, upon request, when the accused is discharged. Second is by allowing non-communications orders between the accused and the victim. Third is by ensuring that the safety of victims is considered when decisions are made about an accused person.

Provisions in the proposed legislation would also help ensure the consistent interpretation and application of the law across the country.

Amending the legislative framework applicable to mental disorder in the Criminal Code and National Defence Act is a difficult issue for victims, families and communities. However, and I cannot repeat this enough, public safety must come first when complying with the rule of law and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

We support this bill so that it can be further studied in committee. In the coming weeks, at the committee stage, we will talk to mental health experts, victims and the provinces to find out what they believe is the best approach, but, and this is a big but, we do not want to play political games with this bill. We must focus on the policy's merits.

As for consultation and who pays the cost, which was a question asked of the Conservative speaker who spoke last, in a Global News interview, a spokesperson for the Department of Justice stated that the provinces would be responsible for assuming the costs of the new policy. That said, we must ensure that the provinces have the financial resources to pay for the new policy.

However, there are other unknowns. There are outstanding questions and information the federal Conservatives should be able to provide. Again, with this bill, public safety must be paramount, but we also need the information and data to make the best decisions we can make.

There are several outstanding questions. First, what statistics did the government collect on persons deemed not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder? We would be looking for those statistics by province, by territory and by type of offence.

Second, how many people were deemed not criminally responsible over the past ten years, and how many of those people were granted an unconditional discharge?

Third, which persons deemed not criminally responsible and discharged were found guilty of a subsequent offence? That is a good question. Fourth, what persons deemed not criminally responsible and discharged were deemed not criminally responsible for a subsequent offence? What was the nature of the subsequent offence?

Fifth, for each of the last ten years, what was the rate of repeat offences for all offenders under federal jurisdiction by province and by territory?

Finally, which treatment facilities across the country, public and private, accept people deemed not criminally responsible, and how much money is out there to actually look after these people once they are in institution, if they go to an institution?

Most Canadians are familiar with Sheldon Kennedy. He is a former National Hockey League player. He is also an abuse victim. His story is well known across the country. Here is what Kennedy had to say when he heard about this bill. He said:

What I really like is the focus on victims. I think that's key, and when we look at this type of crime we catch some child sex perpetrators but I think it's paramount we take care of the victims of these perpetrators.

Let me be clear. We want to know how we can help victims. Over the next few weeks, we will talk to mental health experts, victims and the provinces to learn what they believe is the best approach.

I cannot stress this enough: we do not want to play political games with this. We want to examine the merits of the bill, which must be adequately funded by the federal government. We need answers to those outstanding questions. What I listed were just several questions. There are many more. We need the answers to those questions to make the best decisions about moving forward.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:45 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, my colleague rightly pointed out that he has lots of questions. I have lots of questions as well. I spoke to the bill earlier, and I still have questions. One reason we are not able to get answers to these questions, in my opinion, is that we do not know who the government has consulted on this.

I want to ask my colleague if he knows of the organizations, individuals and experts in his community the government consulted. At the law school in Halifax, professor Archie Kaiser teaches disability law. We have Atlantic regional offices, for example, of the Canadian Mental Health Association and the schizophrenia association. As far as I know, none of these organizations have been consulted.

We want to make sure that public policy is based on the best evidence out there, not on just our gut reaction to a couple of high-profile cases. I wonder if my colleague has heard of any consultation on this legislation happening in his community.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:45 p.m.
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NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Speaker, the short answer to the hon. member's question is that I do not know. I do not know who has been consulted. In my riding of St. John's South—Mount Pearl, there is a lot of talk, especially among police authorities, about mental health and the fact that the services are not there for people who suffer from mental health illness.

I mentioned in my speech a number of questions, but the list of questions is as long as my arm. We have many questions that are outstanding. Which treatment facilities, for example, accept people with the mental health illnesses we outlined? Of the facilities, which are private? How many people can each facility accept? How many people are currently in each facility? What analysis has the government done to determine that these legislative measures will require these facilities to increase their capacity? There are so many questions we just do not have answers to.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:50 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for St. John's South—Mount Pearl for yet another speech in the House that has brought us a lot more sense of what is missing from this particular legislation. The member for St. John's South—Mount Pearl is one of the most eloquent members in the House of Commons. He is very hard working. He does a terrific job. He raised significant questions for which the government does not seem to have any answers.

We all support the principle of the legislation. We support the principle of helping victims, but the fact that the government is incapable of answering these key questions is very important.

The government has a history of, and unfortunately there is no other way of putting it, screwing up legislation. I think of the refugee legislation and the Veterans Charter. In each case, the government tried to rush through legislation that had not received due diligence.

I am wondering if the member for St. John's South—Mount Pearl is concerned about the closure motion the government has brought forward. Is it repeating the same mistakes it has made in the past?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:50 p.m.
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NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Mr. Speaker, I am very concerned about closure, and I am always concerned any time the government limits debate. To me, that interferes with our democracy. It interferes with the way this place is supposed to run.

The bottom line is that our party supports the bill going to committee, and in committee, we are going to bring in experts and have further study. With all of these outstanding questions, we are going to need answers. The government had better be prepared when we go to committee stage to answer some important questions.

We do not know if the homework has been done on the bill in terms of treatment facilities and raw numbers. If Canadians with mental health issues are charged and convicted of a crime, how often do they repeat crimes? How often are they put back in jail? We do not know whether they get the treatment they need or whether the treatment is out there. There are so many questions. We do not know if the homework is being done, because we do not have any answers yet. We will see at committee stage.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 6:50 p.m.
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NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am proud to join my hon. colleagues in speaking about Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder). We have discussed it at length in the House today.

The bill addresses a particularly important and troubling issue for victims and other Canadians. Regrettably, almost every region or community in Canada has seen some tragic event of this kind. I will refrain from naming some high-profile cases in Quebec since everyone already knows what we are talking about.

However, it is important to take the time to debate this properly in the House. I find it deplorable that once again, the government has moved time allocation to limit debate on an important bill that has a direct bearing on the problems victims experience. The time allotted for debate at second reading has again been reduced. I hope that we do not have to face the same situation in committee as we have in other committees, where the government has put restrictions on the witnesses who come forward to tell us about their experience and their views on the bill. In several other committees, we have seen the government abuse its majority to silence opinions that are not necessarily in line with its proposals. I hope that will change this time. This is a crucial issue.

This bill was introduced in the wake of events that made headlines and, not surprisingly, shocked people. We have to take the time to study this bill thoroughly. It would amend certain Criminal Code provisions to make the safety of the public the paramount consideration in courts' and review boards' decision-making processes involving persons found not criminally responsible.

The bill would also create a new mechanism to designate NCR accused as high-risk and subject them to additional restrictions with respect to parole and conditions under which an offender can be released. It would also enhance victims' involvement in the release process for persons found not criminally responsible.

Bill C-54 puts forward major changes worthy of in-depth consideration in committee. That is why my colleagues and I will support it at second reading. We believe that the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights must take a very close, non-partisan look at the bill's provisions.

We can all agree that partisanship and political games have no place in our debate on this issue. We need genuine consultation with mental health experts, the provinces and victims to ensure that this approach is really the best possible approach for Canada. We all know that protecting public safety is the highest priority, but that protection must go hand in hand with respect for the rule of law and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The committee's study will enable us to ensure that the bill before us is truly in line with the basic principles our country was founded on. These principles must be evident in every law we pass and must be our foremost consideration for every bill introduced in the House, be it to protect victims or anything else.

We also have to make sure that we are doing everything in our power to support victims of crime. I have no doubt that all parties in the House consider that a priority.

We all have a duty to provide victims with the services they need and to ensure that we give them the best support possible during their hardship. We must also continue to provide that support well into the future, so that they can truly reintegrate into society and move beyond the tragic events they experienced. It is difficult to do, but as parliamentarians, it is our responsibility to put those measures forward. We know that victims are the hardest hit by crime, and we have a duty to help them.

There are already various victim compensation programs in place, and they are essential. However, when faced with a bill such as Bill C-54, we must ask ourselves whether or not the measures it contains will really be enough to protect victims of crime from potentially being revictimized.

We must also ask ourselves whether the bill will truly offer more support to victims of crime. I hope that the committee will at least be able to take a closer look at those elements, which are priorities for the NDP, and shed some light on them.

There are other elements that should also direct the committee's work, and I hope that they will be reflected in the work that will begin after the mere five hours of debate allocated for second reading in the House.

Some mental health experts are already concerned about the potentially harmful effects this bill may have on Canadians with mental health issues who do not break the law. These people obey our country's laws, but they still need additional support from the different levels of government.

Based on what I have heard in the various speeches about Bill C-54, it seems as though the government believes that there are quite a few individuals who would have been found not criminally responsible for crimes, and that these individuals are hiding on every street corner. However, such is not the case. We need to keep these statistics in perspective.

For example, in Ontario, the most populated province in the country, only 0.0001% of people accused of a Criminal Code offence were found to be not criminally responsible. That is a very low number. That does not mean that we do not still have work to do to provide better protection for victims in the future and to prevent more people from becoming victims of crime. However, when we adopt such measures, we must also consider what kind of effect they could have on other Canadians living with mental health issues.

Before I became an MP, I earned a bachelor's degree in psychology from Laval University. During my studies I learned about the stigma experienced by people living with mental illness. These issues are still poorly understood by the vast majority of Canadians.

For example, according to a fairly widespread stereotype, people living with schizophrenia are considered to be violent. That is often not at all the case. These people certainly have some problems, but it is rare for them to commit violent crimes.

There are already a number of community services available. A number of organizations are doing excellent work. Take, for example, Arc-en-ciel, which serves the people of Portneuf, in my riding. This organization is trying to challenge mental health stereotypes.

These are issues I would like to see studied in committee, which is why I support Bill C-54 at second reading. I look forward to seeing what the committee comes up with, so we can ensure that the Criminal Code is properly equipped to deal with people who are declared not criminally responsible.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7 p.m.
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NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate my colleague for a very thoughtful speech on a very difficult subject.

When we are dealing with issues of justice in this country, dealing with crimes that involve some of the most serious emotions and serious impacts on people that we can imagine, it behooves us as parliamentarians to move very prudently and cautiously, because what we need is an incredible balance. We need a sensitive balance that recognizes the unbelievable pain victims experience when they suffer from a crime committed against them or their loved ones. We must also balance and temper that with a sense of justice for the person who has committed that crime, because the point of our criminal justice system is, at the very end, to do justice.

I ask my hon. colleague if there are any facts or statistics that were used by the government in crafting this law, or does she feel that, like so many other Conservative laws before it, this is a law that is more about politics and wedging than it is about coming to thoughtful, effective criminal law?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7 p.m.
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NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his excellent question.

It is difficult to deal with such a serious and complex subject when confronted with political games. Unfortunately, that happens far too often in the House.

Unless I am mistaken, the time allocation motion that was debated a little earlier today was the 33rd one that has been imposed. Another time allocation motion was moved this afternoon, which makes this the 34th time the government has decided to close down debate.

My colleague from Gatineau pointed out to the Minister of Justice that the statistics he used to justify the bill before us were not the right ones.

Too often, we see the government making decisions that are perhaps based on the media and on what we see in the newspapers; reactions may be very strong and people may be on edge following incidents that are very difficult for communities and families to deal with.

I hope the committee will be able to fill in the gaps that we unfortunately see far too often when this government drafts bills.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:05 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, speaking of political games, my question to my colleague is about political games when it comes to victims.

As we all know, there is a bit of a scandal happening around expenses in the Senate. I heard one of our Conservative colleagues on the radio saying that this is not what Canadians really care about, but Canadians really care about keeping our streets safe and keeping pedophiles off the street.

Really? We are talking about Senate expenses, and our Conservative colleague is talking about keeping pedophiles off the street. This is not what people are actually talking about to me day to day in my riding. They are talking to me about things that are happening in their real lives.

In that vein, it is like creating a fear, creating a sense that all these bogeymen are out there to get us, and then creating public policy based on a couple of instances of tragedy, which need to be addressed but do not necessarily create the best basis for public policy for all.

I wonder where the attention to victims is. Why do we not actually have funding for victims organizations, have funding for victims to be able to get on with their lives? That would be true attention to victims, as far as I am concerned. I wonder if she agrees.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:05 p.m.
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NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for her excellent question. She has basically summarized my point of view on this.

Some provisions allow victims to be more involved in the release process for persons who are found not criminally responsible. However, this does not provide them with direct assistance in surviving and overcoming the terrible experiences they have had.

I have been a member of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security for a short while. From our discussions and from meeting with witnesses, we have seen how important it is to focus on prevention in order to protect against having new victims. It is one aspect of the job that the government often forgets about, so it takes advantage of very hot issues that have shocked people. However, it is not putting much more thought into it. Yet, this is the type of work that we need in the House, not just the knee-jerk reactions that we see too often from the government.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:05 p.m.
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Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, before I start, I would like to let you know that I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Crowfoot. I am looking forward to his speech.

I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak on second reading debate of Bill C-54. As a retired police officer, I hold this very close to my heart. I have seen many cases where this has been traumatic on both sides, not only for the victims but also for those who have been found not criminally responsible.

The bill would reform not just the Criminal Code mental disorder regime but also the corresponding regime in the National Defence Act, to ensure these regimes develop harmoniously.

The bill is very complex, not only from a technical and legal perspective but also because of the sensitive issues it seeks to address.

At the heart of the bill is the complex matter of assessing the risk to public safety of people who have committed horrific crimes, who suffer from a mental disorder. Unlike convicted offenders, mentally disordered accused persons are not held criminally responsible for their actions due to the presence of mental illness at the time of the commission of the offence that prevented them from knowing what they were doing or what it was that they were doing wrong.

The concept is not only difficult for many Canadians to understand. It is also difficult for many Canadians to accept. It is particularly difficult when a very tragic or horrific incident has occurred. Not-criminally-responsible accused persons are not held accountable and sentenced like convicted offenders are. Instead, they may be detained under the criminal law power if they pose a significant threat to public safety.

Decisions about individuals found not criminally responsible are made by provincially constituted administrative tribunals known as review boards. The Criminal Code mental disorder regime guides the review boards in their ultimate goal of protecting the public from mentally disordered accused persons who continue to pose a danger.

I would like to focus my remarks on the public safety elements of Bill C-54.

First, the bill would clarify that public safety must be the paramount consideration in the decision-making factors that the courts and review boards apply when dealing with cases of mentally disordered accused persons.

The goal of ensuring public safety animates the entire legal regime that applies to mentally disordered accused persons who are referred to the review boards. One could say that is their raison d'être, as the review boards' main task is assessing the public safety risk posed by a particular unfit or not-criminally-responsible accused and making orders to address those risks.

In short, it is appropriate to highlight public safety as being the paramount factor in the review board decision-making process. If there are no real risks to public safety, the legislation is clear in requiring that an absolute discharge would be made.

Another key public safety element of Bill C-54 would be the new hearing process for the courts to determine whether a particular not-criminally-responsible accused were a high-risk accused and, where so, to impose stricter rules of detention more tailored to protecting the public.

Concerns have been expressed about the potential for day passes, or passes longer in nature from a hospital, being granted to a mentally disordered accused who, under the jurisdiction of the review boards, might pose a danger to society. In at least one recent case, allowing an unescorted absentee to leave a hospital led to the killing of an innocent victim. The bill aims to prevent such tragedies from occurring.

The proposed high-risk designation scheme would be tailored to respond to situations where the risk to the public safety posed by certain not-criminally-responsible accused is considered to be greater and, therefore, would require greater protection.

Designations could be made in one of two possible situations. First, when there is a substantial likelihood that the accused will commit further violence that could endanger the public, or second, where the offence that led to the not criminally responsible verdict was of such a brutal nature as to indicate a risk of grave harm to the public.

Procedurally, the high-risk designation scheme would be launched by way of an application by the prosecutor to the courts after a not criminally responsible verdict had been rendered for a serious personal injury offence. An application could only be made if the accused had not already been absolutely discharged. However, if the accused were still in the review board system, whether in custody or subject to a conditional discharge, the Crown could bring an application if it wished to obtain an order designating a particular accused as high risk. The court would consider all relevant evidence, including the nature and circumstances of the offence, any relevant pattern of repetitive behaviour, the accused's current mental condition, the past and expected course of treatment and the accused's willingness to follow treatment as well as expert medical opinions.

If the court made the high-risk accused finding, a disposition requiring detention of the accused in a hospital would have to be made. No conditions permitting absences from the hospital would be authorized unless a structured plan had been prepared to address any risk to the public and only with an authorized escort. Absences from the hospital would only be permitted for medical reasons and for any purpose necessary for the accused's treatment.

Bill C-54 also mentions that decision makers, the court and review boards shall consider whether it is desirable in the interest of the safety and security of any person, particularly a victim, to include a condition requiring the accused to abstain from communicating with the victim or attending a specified place. There is also authority for any other condition to be made to ensure the safety and security of victims. These are very reasonable proposals and I am pleased to see them in the bill.

I would like to commend the Minister of Justice for introducing this important piece of legislation. I would urge all members of the House to support the passage of Bill C-54 at second reading as this would enable further study of the bill at committee.

As I mentioned at the outset, this is a very complex area of the law and I am sure that the task of assessing risks with respect to this population is very complex as well. I am aware that the Department of Justice conducted research on the review boards systems in Canada. A research report on their data collection study was published in 2006 on the Department of Justice website. It contains a great deal of relevant statistical information such as the nature of the offence that brought the person into the review board system, the nature of their diagnosis, prior involvement in the criminal justice system, types of decisions made, total caseloads, et cetera. No doubt this data will assist the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights when it studies the bill.

Before closing, I would like to take a moment to clarify an important point. Although Bill C-54 addresses the difficult and sensitive issue of how to effectively manage the risk posed by accused persons who have been found by the courts to be not criminally responsible or unfit to stand trial on account of mental disorder, it should not be interpreted as a suggestion that all mentally ill people are dangerous. That is simply not the case.

The debate around the bill must not lead to negative stereotyping about mental illness. To put things into perspective, it is estimated that 20%, or one in five Canadians, will suffer from a mental illness at some point in their life.

This bill does not target the mentally ill at large. This bill provides clear guidance on how those very few mentally ill accused persons who find themselves before the review board system should be dealt with in order to ensure that the safety of the public is adequately considered when there is significant threat to their safety.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:15 p.m.
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NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice earlier about the costs associated with the bill. I did not get a satisfactory answer and so I will ask the hon. member if he could enlighten us.

With Bill C-54, there would be costs downloaded to the provinces, and we have seen this with many other bills. The bills are drafted, and without any consultation, the provinces are left holding the expenses. The provinces have to provide the infrastructure and services, which are a cost to them.

Is the member aware of any consultations that have taken place with the provinces regarding the downloading of costs?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:15 p.m.
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Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, certainly consultations have been done with the provinces. We have held consultations with the provinces as well as a number of individuals and organizations that specialize in law, victim services, justice services and mental health services. In fact, our government has invested over $376 million in mental health research. We have also established the Mental Health Commission.

We are committed to ensuring that not criminally responsible people are taken care of to the best of our ability and to the best of the ability of the provinces.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:15 p.m.
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Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe New Brunswick

Conservative

Robert Goguen ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his great work on the justice committee.

Since the hon. member was in the RCMP for many years, I am wondering if he could share his experience as an RCMP officer on how strengthening the provisions of the bill would help in the field. We know that the officers end up dealing with these individuals day in and day out.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:20 p.m.
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Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, certainly in my years as a police officer I saw many cases where not criminally responsible people were involved in crimes, and some of those crimes were horrific. However, those people did not know what they were doing.

We have to provide the best services we can to those people recognizing that some of them may need a lot of years of help to ensure that they can be integrated back into society. We have to ensure that those people get all the help they can from the best that is available.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:20 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, we support the bill. We support the principle of providing support for victims. There is no doubt about that. However, we have also asked a number of questions and as yet have not had the kinds of answers that should be forthcoming in terms of this legislation.

We support the bill, but we have seen a number of cases where bills that we have supported in principle have been poorly drafted. In a number of cases, because of court actions, the government has had to redraft the work that was not necessarily effectively done in the first place. We would like to get it right from the start. However, we have concerns around the fact that the government is bringing closure and has not been able to answer a number of questions that have been asked by members of this House.

Particularly in light of some of the concerns coming from the provinces, we have seen significant cutbacks in crime prevention programs, which has meant that municipalities and provinces have had to fill the void where the federal government has simply not provided the funding that is necessary.

Can the member respond to the questions about the downloading to provinces? We want to make sure that this legislation is done effectively.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:20 p.m.
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Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, this government has recognized over the years the importance of health care to all provinces. In fact, we have increased the transfer payments to the provinces to a total of $62 billion, which is nearly a 50% increase since 2006. A significant amount of that money has gone to mental health. We will continue to support the provinces in their efforts to ensure that mentally handicapped people and those not criminally responsible are brought the best opportunities available to make them better.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:20 p.m.
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Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the ability to stand in the House this evening to discuss this bill that has been brought forward through the justice committee. I have the privilege of chairing the public safety and national security committee. One thing that I think all of us realize is the number of issues that arise around mental health issues. We have seen in it in the news and at committee. We understand this is one of the issues we have to deal with.

This issue is not just of concern to members of Parliament. It is increasingly of concern to many Canadians. The question that lies at the heart of this bill is how to ensure public safety is paramount when decisions are made about individuals who have been found not criminally responsible for their criminal offences on account of mental disorders. This bill would amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act's mental disorder regime to ensure that public safety is the paramount consideration and that victims no longer feel left out of the process. The changes to the National Defence Act essentially mirror those being proposed in the Criminal Code to ensure that public safety and victim-related improvements also apply when dealing with individuals who have been found not responsible for offences within the military justice system.

I am going to focus my comments this evening on the elements of the bill that relate to victims. On the day the bill was introduced, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Justice emphasized that this bill aims to enhance victims' safety and involvement in the decision-making process. It is important to make sure that our laws reflect those objectives explicitly and adequately.

The victims of individuals who are found not criminally responsible are concerned that inadequate consideration is given to their safety by the review boards when a decision is made regarding a mentally disordered person who has been accused of a criminal offence. Victims have also raised concern about the fact that they have no way of knowing when an accused who is found not criminally responsible has been released into or given access to their communities. They are, therefore, afraid that they may encounter the accused person unexpectedly and without being adequately prepared. We know of the damage that can be done when those types of incidents take place, where the ones who have been victimized all of a sudden bump into accused persons at the neighbourhood grocery shop or wherever it may be in their communities. Bill C-54 would address these issues.

I am very pleased to note that Bill C-54 includes specific measures to better protect victims. The bill expressly provides that when a court or review board decides on a course of action relating to a mentally disordered accused person, the victim's safety would be taken into consideration. That is the first thing, that they view this through the scope of the victim.

In addition, the proposed reforms would allow the court or review board to order that the person found not criminally responsible abstain from communicating with the victim. We know of occasions where victims become re-victimized when alleged offenders or the ones not guilty because of mental disorders then begin communicating with the very people they have victimized.

In addition to the reforms relating to victims' safety, Bill C-54 proposes amendments to improve notification to victims and enhance victims' involvement. The bill provides that at a victim's request, he or she will be informed when a mentally disordered accused person is being absolutely or conditionally discharged.

Victims may also request to be informed of the holding of any hearing in respect of the accused, including hearings concerning any possible finding that an accused is high risk or revocation of such a finding. This bill would increase awareness to society, but also certainly to the one victimized.

Since some victims do not wish to participate in the hearings and thus relive the trauma of the incident, they have been given the choice of not requesting notice. However, again, the victim decides. It is up to the victims to choose whether they want to appear or be made aware of any of these requests.

The notice will enable victims to exercise their right to file a victim impact statement if they desire, for consideration by the court or by the review board, outlining the harm done to them or the loss that they have suffered.

I am very pleased to see how the bill adds to the government's many initiatives to meet the needs of victims. Since the federal victim strategy was announced in 2007, our government has supported many different measures to meet the needs of victims of crime, including enhancing the victim assistance program across Canada and increasing the capacity of non-governmental organizations to deliver victim impact statements or to deliver victims' services.

The bill is full of public safety measures to make certain that the guiding principle of protection of society remains the guiding principle. In addition the specific measures, I am pleased the bill includes that.

The Prime Minister stated on February 8, “Canadians want a justice system that puts the safety of our communities and our families first”.

The legislative amendments proposed in the not criminally responsible reform bill will clarify that the safety of the public is the paramount consideration in the court and in the review board decision-making process in respect of individuals found to be not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder or also if they are found to be unfit to stand trial.

The proposed bill will also amend the Criminal Code to create a process by which a court may find that a not criminally responsible accused is a high-risk accused. The court can make this finding with regard to individuals who has been found not criminally responsible for a serious personal injury offence where there is a substantial likelihood that they will use violence that they will endanger the life or safety of another person.

There are several effects of this high-risk designation. A high-risk accused would have to remain in hospital and a review board would not be authorized to order a conditional or absolute release until a court had revoked the finding.

Moreover, the review period for an accused found to be high risk would be extended for up to three years, whereas the general rule that a mentally disordered accused under the jurisdiction of a review board would have his or her case reviewed on an annual basis.

As well, the individual would only be permitted escorted absences from the hospital for medical reasons or reasons related to his or her treatment and in accordance with a structured plan prepared to address risk related to the mentally disordered accused absent from the hospital.

While the bill proposes to make important changes to the mental disorder regime, I feel it is incumbent upon me to point out some things that the bill will not impact. We have already had constituents call us in regard to some of these.

For example, the proposed bill will not impact in any way the access to treatment to which a mentally disordered accused has access. The bill will also not impact the location of detention for mentally disordered accused. They individuals would continue to be detained in appropriate mental health facilities and not in prisons.

The criminal law governing persons found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder is not well known. Part XX.1 of the Criminal Code comprehensively sets out the law and procedure governing persons found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder and those found unfit to stand trial. This regime provides for both the supervision and treatment of mentally disordered accused, as well as the protection of public safety.

Another point I would like to make in closing is that although Bill C-54 asks us to consider how to strengthen the law to ensure it protects Canadians from actual threats to public safety, this is not meant to suggest that all people who suffer from a mental disorder commit criminal offences and are dangerous. Some mentally disordered persons will commit minor offences, but others commit major violent offences.

The bill would help to address these issues. It is timely. It was learned over the period of time that we needed to make changes. It is good to hear that the opposition is supportive of these measures as well.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:30 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, in response to a question from one of my colleagues earlier, the member's colleague suggested that the provinces were consulted. I would be very curious to know, first of all, what sort of consultation took place. Furthermore, were the provinces that were supposedly consulted aware that they would be the ones to bear the brunt of the costs associated with this bill, and did they agree to that?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:30 p.m.
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Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, this type of legislation moves forward. We have been able to, first, address a situation and then our minister always works closely with his attorneys general in the many different provinces. There have been many different cross-country consultations.

A lot of the legislation comes from concerns that are brought to the government. It is not that the minister is sitting back thinking what we can bring forward on legislation. This is reactive to many different issues and to many different stories in the news. We see these are the issues about which provinces and people all across Canada are concerned.

Some provinces and territories expressed concern in the lead-up to this legislation that public safety was not the guiding principle and that more needed to be done around the area of mental health issues.

In our committee, we realize that our prisons are full of individuals who really need to have some type of help for mental disorders. Years ago, our provinces stepped back in some respect to institutionalization of some of these individuals. We find them in many of our prisons. We need to find ways that we can find the proper therapy for those who suffer from these kinds of illnesses, but we also need to make certain, as the provinces have expressed to us, that public safety remains the guiding principle.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:35 p.m.
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Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I listened closely to what the member had to say. He emphasizes and reinforces victims. I would like to share with him a concern that residents of Winnipeg North share, I believe, with all Canadians. It is the government is not doing enough in preventing crimes from taking place in the first place.

When we look at it from that perspective, the government neglect in that area allows for more victims of crimes to occur. This is really important to the constituents who I represent. They want to see a government that takes more of a proactive approach in dealing with things such as diverting youth out of gangs into a more creative, positive atmosphere. It seems to me that its focus is too narrow in its scope.

Could the member indicate to the House when, or if at all, the government has any clear intention to deal with issues specific to preventing crimes from taking place in the first place? What bold new initiatives can we anticipate in the next few months dealing with that issue?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:35 p.m.
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Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

Mr. Speaker, that is a good question. Right now, our committee is travelling across the country and looking at best practices. Last week it was in Prince Albert, in Calgary and other places as well. Among the many things it has found is that we need a community reaction, not only a knee-jerk reaction, as someone earlier said, but we need to work with all the different aspects of the community, such as mental health, health care, the education system, all of those. We are seeing more and more where our government is working on strategies and plans to bring people together to prevent. This has come out in our committee. All members understand that.

Let me say what our government has done. When we were first elected in 2006, we created a mental health commission. It was not there before. We invested over $376 million in mental health research because we realized that it was not just about health care; it was about the justice system, public safety and all those things. We have continued to work with the provinces in areas where we ask how we can network better and find the therapy and help that these people need to prevent recidivism. That word, recidivism, is a big word when we deal with mental health.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:35 p.m.
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Eglinton—Lawrence Ontario

Conservative

Joe Oliver ConservativeMinister of Natural Resources

Mr. Speaker, I am speaking tonight in full support of our government's decision to introduce the not criminally responsible reform act, also known as Bill C-54.

Consistently since 2006, our government, under the strong leadership of the Prime Minister, has always championed tackling crime by holding violent criminals accountable for their actions, giving victims of crime a stronger voice and increasing the efficiency of the justice system. To date, the government has achieved over 30 significant accomplishments in furtherance of these objectives.

Many of these accomplishments are embodied in the Safe Streets and Communities Act. There are numerous measures in that act, but allow me to highlight just a few.

The ending house arrest for property and other serious crime amendments restricted the use of conditional sentences, including house arrest, to ensure that this tool would be used appropriately and provides clarity on the list of offences covered.

The Safe Streets and Communities Act also amended the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act to address serious organized drug crime. The CDSA now provides mandatory minimum penalties for serious drug offences, including those carried out for organized crime purposes and those that involve targeting youth. The legislation supported the national anti-drug strategy's efforts to combat illicit drug production and distribution and helped disrupt criminal enterprises by targeting drug suppliers.

The protecting children from sexual predators component amended the Criminal Code to better protect children from sexual predators. It achieves that by ensuring that the penalties imposed by sexual offences against children are consistent and better reflect the heinous nature of these acts by creating two new offences that take aim at conduct that could facilitate the sexual abuse of a child.

These are just a few of the important measures that this act helped make Canadians safer and got tough on criminals.

While our government has been clear that we are getting tough on crime, we have also taken action to improve victims' rights in the justice system. While there are numerous examples of our government's approach, including the Citizen's Arrest and Self-defence Act and the Protecting Victims from Sex Offenders Act, I would like to focus on a few initiatives.

First, our government's federal victims strategy has been a great success at ensuring that victims' rights are respected. The objective of the federal victims strategy is to give victims a more effective voice in the criminal justice system. The Department of Justice works in close collaboration with other federal institutions, as well as victims, victims' advocates, provincial and territorial governments, service providers and others involved in the criminal justice system.

The Department of Justice develops policy and criminal law reform, funds various programs to meet the needs of victims of crime and shares information about issues of importance to victims of crime. Within the federal victims strategy, the victims fund is a grants and contributions program administered by the Department of Justice. Funds are available each year to fund provinces, territories and non-governmental organizations whose projects, activities and operations support the objectives of the federal victims strategy.

Since 2007, when the government introduced the federal victims strategy, more than $90 million has been committed to respond to the needs of victims of crime. Most recently, in economic action plan 2012, the government committed an additional $5 million over five years for new or enhanced child advocacy centres, bringing the total Government of Canada commitment to these centres at $10.25 million.

Child advocacy centres aim to minimize the trauma of being a child victim of crime. These centres are a collaborative team of professionals that work in a child-friendly setting to help a child, or youth victim or witness navigate the criminal justice system. The work of the staff can greatly reduce the emotional and mental harm to the child.

Furthermore, we instituted the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime as an independent resource for victims in Canada. The office was created in 2007 to ensure that the federal government meets its responsibilities to victims of crime.

Victims can also contact the office to learn more about their rights under federal law and the services available to them or to make a complaint about any federal agency or federal legislation dealing with victims of crime.

In addition to its direct work with victims, the office also works to ensure that policy makers and other criminal justice personnel are aware of victims' needs and concerns, and to identify the important issues and trends that may negatively impact victims. Where appropriate, the ombudsman may also make recommendations to the federal government.

Under the leadership of the Prime Minister, we are extremely proud of our record and we continue to improve it, which brings me to today's topic, Bill C-54, the not criminally responsible reform act.

Before I begin describing the important measures in this bill, allow me to explain a few key concepts.

Under current Canadian criminal law, if the accused cannot understand the nature of the trial or its consequence and cannot communicate with his or her lawyer on account of a mental disorder, the court will find the accused unfit to stand trial. Similarly, if a person is found to have committed an offence but lacks the capacity to understand what he or she did, or to know that it was wrong, due to a mental disorder at the time, the court will make a special verdict of not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder.

In either case, whether the accused is unfit to stand trial or is not criminally responsible, the appropriate provincial or territorial review board may take one of three actions: it could place the accused in hospital detention within custody, grant a conditional discharge or grant an absolute discharge.

Bill C-54 would amend the Criminal Code by emphasizing three primary objectives. It would explicitly place public safety first, it would create a new high-risk designation and it would enhance victim involvement.

First, the current approach has public safety as one of four factors. This legislation would clarify that the highest priority of this government is to keep Canadian citizens safe. It would do this by explicitly making public safety the paramount consideration in the decision-making process relating to an accused found to be unfit to stand trial or not criminally responsible.

We are also codifying what is meant by the term “significant threat to the safety of the public”. This test determines whether a review board should continue to supervise the accused. Some provinces have told us that they believe the review boards are interpreting this term too narrowly.

Our approach would codify it along the lines of its interpretation by the Supreme Court of Canada. It would clarify that the review board could continue to impose restrictions on not criminally responsible accused who risk committing further criminal acts even though they do not pose a threat of violence per se. For example, if the board were concerned about a not criminally responsible accused committing thefts or break-ins, it would be able to maintain jurisdiction over him or her and impose the necessary and appropriate conditions.

Second, the creation of a new high-risk designation is absolutely necessary. Such a designation would classify as high risk an accused who has been found not criminally responsible for a serious personal injury offence and who poses a substantial risk of committing further violent acts. It is important to note that this high-risk accused designation would only apply following a verdict of not criminally responsible, rather than applying to someone who was deemed unfit to stand trial, because that person would not yet have been tried for the offence.

The process would allow the prosecutor to apply to the court if the criteria were met. Once designated, a high-risk, not criminally responsible accused would be held in custody and not considered for release until the high risk status were revoked. High-risk accused may have their review period extended up to three years, if they consent or if the board is satisfied it would be highly unlikely that the individuals' condition would improve in that time period. The annual review would continue to be available for all other not criminally responsible accused persons.

Bill C-54 outlines that a high-risk, not criminally responsible accused person would not be allowed to go into the community unescorted. Escorted passes would only be allowed in narrow circumstances and would be subject to sufficient conditions to protect public safety.

Third, victims are concerned that their safety is not being specifically taken into consideration by review boards when they make a disposition. Victims are also concerned that they often have no way of knowing if and when a not criminally responsible accused will be given access to the community. They are afraid they might unexpectedly run into the person who injured them, without being adequately prepared.

The proposed legislation would enhance the safety of victims and provide an opportunity for their greater involvement in the Criminal Code mental disorder regime. The legislation would help ensure that victims were notified upon request when a not criminally responsible accused was discharged, allow non-communication orders between a not criminally responsible accused and the victim, and ensure that the safety of victims be considered when decisions were being made about a not criminally responsible accused person.

The proposed legislation would build on actions that have already been taken to further advance the interests of victims of crime.

While it is important to know what is in this bill and how it would further strengthen our justice system, it is also important to know what is not in the bill.

First, nowhere in this bill do we seek to impose penal consequences on people who are found to be not criminally responsible due to mental disorder. The goal of this bill is public safety and protecting Canadians from those who pose a danger. Our current public safety objective is the basis of our legislative regime on mental disorders, and this bill further would strengthen that objective.

Second, there are no changes that would impact the ability of the accused to access mental health treatment. Issues surrounding mental health are prevalent in the criminal justice system and pose special challenges to law enforcement officials. We remain committed to ensuring that these challenges are addressed through the criminal justice system.

Finally, it is important to note that this bill would not apply to all individuals who have a mental illness in the court system. These provisions would only apply to those individuals who are not fit to stand trial or not criminally responsible due to their mental disorder. Those individuals who have not been found unfit or not criminally responsible would be dealt with in the traditional criminal justice system.

Our government recognizes that mental health is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Our intention is to strike a better balance between the need to protect society against those who pose a significant threat to the public and the need to appropriately treat the mentally disordered accused.

Our government continues to place a high priority on mental health initiatives. Our achievements include establishing the Mental Health Commission, investing over $376 million in mental health research and continuing to work with the provinces.

Mental health issues have been a focus of cooperative work among federal, provincial and territorial ministers of justice and public safety. At a meeting in November 2012, the ministers acknowledged that persons with mental health issues present significant challenges for the justice system and especially for correctional systems, and agreed that close collaboration is required between jurisdictions to better address the needs of the mentally ill.

We continue to take concrete steps on the issue of mental health in prison. Since 2006, we have invested nearly $90 million in mental health for prisoners.

I would like to summarize the bill, which has three main components.

First of all, the bill explicitly sets out that public safety is the paramount consideration in the decision-making process relating to accused persons found to be not criminally responsible.

Second, the bill creates a new designation to protect the public from high-risk NCR accused.

Third, the legislation will enhance the safety of victims by ensuring that they are specifically considered when decisions are being made about accused persons found NCR, ensuring they are notified when an NCR accused is discharged, and allowing non-communication orders between an NCR accused and the victim.

To conclude, our government has been clear that we put victims first. We have taken action to improve the justice system in this important regard. We have taken the action necessary to get tough on crime. Unfortunately, the opposition has opposed us at every turn.

I hope all members will see that Bill C-54 is a step forward in the right direction. It is demanded and expected by law-abiding Canadians, and our government is responding by supplying this necessary legislation. It would place the protection, well-being and safety of Canadians first, it would create a high-risk designation of not criminally responsible accused and it would empower victims of such crimes.

I am a strong supporter of Bill C-54, and I encourage my House colleagues and the whole of Parliament to demonstrate their support in achieving and maintaining these objectives for Canadians.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:55 p.m.
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NDP

Jonathan Tremblay NDP Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Mr. Speaker, first of all, we are willing to support this bill in principle and examine it more thoroughly. However, it does raise some questions, and I wonder if the member could clarify one thing for me regarding this bill.

Passing bills and trying to play the father figure are all well and good. However, is it not the father figure's responsibility to pay for changes made to certain laws?

There are often direct and indirect costs associated with changes to legislation. In this case, some of the costs could be downloaded onto the provinces.

Did the government think of that? Does it know if the provinces will be left to pay some of the costs of these changes to the legislation? Is the government also considering footing the bill for these new changes?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:55 p.m.
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Conservative

Joe Oliver Conservative Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, this bill has been developed in consultation with the provinces across the country. They are fully aware of the financial and other consequences that would flow from this bill.

They are also, of course, supportive of our overarching objective of protecting the public. There are positive consequences to that, as well as the equity involved in protecting victims, something that needed to be addressed and is a continuing issue in this country.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:55 p.m.
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Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Mr. Speaker, over the years, a number of adoptive parents of children with fetal alcohol syndrome have asked that when their children, as adults, get into trouble that they be incarcerated separately from the rest of the population.

We heard how there is a concern over the provinces having money, but right now, until some of these people commit a crime, there is no access to mental health treatment. In Ontario, we see that they blow $1 billion on moving a gas plant to get a couple of candidates elected.

My question to the minister is whether or not this bill would make provisions to ensure that the people who have suffered all their lives from fetal alcohol syndrome would get the treatment they need, as well as not be put in with the general criminal population.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 7:55 p.m.
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Conservative

Joe Oliver Conservative Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, the bill is designed, of course, to protect the population from people who pose a risk. In this case, we do not see that as an issue.

The government has devoted significant amounts of money to the issue of mental health and is concerned, of course, about this issue in particular. I can give assurances to my colleague that the issue is being addressed.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, the minister spoke of Bill C-54 itself, which New Democrats support, in principle, at second reading.

A number of questions have come from the NDP that remain unanswered. Unfortunately, although I followed the minister's speech with interest, he was not able to respond to any of those questions. This is somewhat worrisome, because we want to make sure that this bill supports victims and that the bill will do what it purports to do. We have asked these questions, and they still remain unanswered.

Since we have a minister from the cabinet, I have to ask a question with regard to this legislation and other legislation the government has brought forward. Twice the House has voted to bring in the public safety officer compensation fund. Cabinet has refused to bring in that support. These are victims—firefighters and police officers—who die in the line of duty. There is nothing available to support their families.

I would like to ask the minister why cabinet has now overruled two votes in the House on this and why this and other legislation does not bring in the public safety officer compensation fund.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Before I go to the minister, I would like to remind all hon. members that their questions and comments ought to be related to the matter before the House rather than other matters. Having said that, I will allow the minister to respond, if he wishes.

The hon. Minister of Natural Resources.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8 p.m.
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Conservative

Joe Oliver Conservative Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, you actually spoke for me in that regard. This is not the subject of today's debate, and I would refer the hon. member to my colleague, the Minister of Justice.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8 p.m.
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Conservative

John Carmichael Conservative Don Valley West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to comment on the minister's presentation. He has covered the bill well, and I appreciate his presentation tonight.

He spoke about victims' rights and some of the victims' concerns that are, for the government, a foundational principle of this bill. I wonder if he could specifically address some of the victims' concerns that were raised during the research on this bill.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8 p.m.
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Conservative

Joe Oliver Conservative Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Don Valley West for his question, which really goes to the heart of the one of the critical objectives of this bill.

Victims are concerned that their safety is not being specifically taken into consideration by review boards when they make dispositions. Victims are also concerned that they often have no way of knowing if and when a not criminally responsible accused is given access to the community. They can frequently be concerned, indeed afraid, that they will unexpectedly run into that individual without being adequately prepared or without the opportunity to avoid the encounter.

The proposed legislation would enhance the safety of victims and would provide an opportunity for greater involvement of victims in the Criminal Code's mental disorder regime. The legislation would help ensure that victims are notified, upon request, when an NCR accused is discharged. It would allow non-communication orders between an NCR accused and the victim. It would ensure that the safety of victims is considered when decisions are being made about NCR accused persons. The proposed legislation would build on actions that have already been taken to further advance the interests of victims of crime. These actions include the creation of the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime and the introduction of legislation to double the victim surcharge.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8 p.m.
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NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I had a chance on the weekend to talk to a service provider in my riding of Surrey North who provides services to people with mental illness and homeless people. One of the things that person mentioned was that there is a lack of resources for treatment and prevention, which is what works. Research after research has shown that if we pour one-tenth of the money into prevention and treatment, the dividend is paid back manyfold over time.

I know that Bill C-54 talks about punishment. However, can the minister tell us if any additional funding is going into prevention and treatment for the mentally ill in our society?

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May 27th, 2013 / 8:05 p.m.
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Conservative

Joe Oliver Conservative Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, the first point is that this bill does not talk about punishment, and I regret that the member opposite missed the basic thrust of the bill.

Transfer payments to the provinces will total $62 billion this year, which is nearly a 50% increase since 2006, when we formed government. It is our intention to strike a better balance between the need to protect society from those who pose a significant risk to the public and the need to treat the mentally disordered accused appropriately.

Our government continues to place a high priority on mental health initiatives. Our achievements include establishing the Mental Health Commission, investing over $376 million in mental health research and continuing to work with the provinces. Mental health issues have been a focus of co-operative work among federal, provincial and territorial ministries of justice and public safety.

In a meeting in November 2012, the ministers acknowledged that persons with mental health issues present significant challenges for the justice system, and especially for corrections systems. They agreed that close collaboration is required between jurisdictions to better address the needs of the mentally ill.

We continue to take concrete steps on the issue of mental health in prisons. Since 2006, we have invested nearly $90 million in mental health for prisoners.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:05 p.m.
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Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I take this opportunity to say that I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Vancouver Centre.

I find myself in, I suppose, a not unusual position for me, but nevertheless, one where I am swimming against the tide.

I have no doubt at all that there is a need for us to take the issue of victims and victims' rights very seriously. If we were to look back at how the law could be improved, this would be one area in which we can all agree. However, when I look at the legislation overall, and after the discussions I have had over the last several weeks with a number of groups involved with the issues of mental health and mental illness, I find myself unable to recommend to my colleagues that we vote in favour of this legislation, even at second reading.

I know that when I say that, there will be members who will be struck with disbelief and others who will say that surely I recognize that dangerous people should be kept off the street. My answer to that is, of course, and they are.

The facts are these. The defence of insanity, the recognition that people who are not able to judge the consequences of their acts and are unable to say whether they are right or wrong and are found either not able to even stand trial or not criminally responsible, has been a foundation of our criminal justice system in the common law world for hundreds of years. It is a basic principle of the criminal law that people who can understand the consequences of their actions and have the necessary intent should be found criminally responsible. Others have to be treated in a different way. They are not simply set free, as some using stereotypes might like to make people believe, but rather are kept away from society, and today, as we try to deal with these issues, are hopefully treated and rehabilitated in such a way that they are able to be successfully reintegrated into society.

It was Madam Justice McLachlin, who, in consideration of a case before the court before she became chief justice, said:

Treatment, not incarceration, is necessary to stabilize the mental condition of a dangerous NCR accused and reduce the threat to public safety created by that condition.

That was in the so-called Winko case.

Until the early nineties, the rule was that one was held at will under a lieutenant-governor's warrant. The lieutenant-governors in the provinces established review committees, but there were really no clear criteria that established how incarceration would suddenly end. It was response to a decision of the Supreme Court, in the Swain case, that said that the protection of the public was not guaranteed by that practice and that we had to establish a new system.

The basis of the new system was to say that first of all, we are not punishing people, because they are not capable of being punished. I am glad that the Minister of Natural Resources emphasized that in the speech he gave. We are not punishing people. We are incarcerating people for the protection of the public. Yes, of course. Public safety is an absolutely important concern we all have and all share. No one wants to see public safety in any way, shape or form compromised. It is also to allow people to become rehabilitated, because they were not capable of understanding what they were doing. We want to put them in a condition where they will be able to understand what they are doing. We understand that this is an area of life that is full of fear, insecurity, mythology and misunderstanding and in which it is only too easy, from time to time, to say, “We have a hot button. Let's press it”.

I certainly believe and share the comments made by members of both the Conservative and New Democratic parties that it is entirely legitimate for us to take the concerns of victims far more seriously than we have in the past. I can say, as someone who has been in government, that we have made every effort to do that, when it was important for us to do that, in terms of having victim statements and the courts taking what is happening to victims much more seriously than they had.

However, we also have to understand that we live in a society governed by the rule of law, wherein we cannot incarcerate people indefinitely without providing for due process, which is what the court told us in 1991. There had to be due process.

The government will argue that it has provided for due process and that the process it is establishing is perfectly adequate. I have to say to the government that I am not sure it has been able to do that. In fact, I have recommended strongly to my colleagues, when I was in a position to recommend something to my colleagues, that we not support this legislation, although I said to them that this response will not be politically popular. This will not be a winner with people because when we press a button like this, we will get a response from the public.

I say to my colleagues in the Conservative Party as well as in the New Democratic Party, both of which are now supporting this legislation, let us not manufacture a crisis that does not exist. There is no crisis in public safety. It does not exist.

The evidence is not there that justifies the sense that if someone has committed a horrible crime and is mentally ill, he or she is any more likely than anyone else to commit that crime again. In fact, the opposite is true. The rate of recidivism for those people who are found to be not criminally responsible is 4% for those people who have been given an absolute discharge; for people who have left prison, it is 44%.

The fact of the matter is we cannot incarcerate people indefinitely. We have to have a process that respects the rights of the individual as well as the rights of society. That is the balance we have to strike.

Naturally, there will be situations that are trying and emotional. We see that. However, people with a mental illness who are linked to a serious crime are not criminals. That is not a principle that the Liberal Party just made up. It is a long-standing principle of natural justice within our society. This bill is off kilter and, unfortunately, that is why we cannot support it.

I spent particularly the last few years of my political life campaigning for people to better understand the nature of mental illness, the importance of getting rid of stigma, the importance of understanding that the mad individual is not necessarily and in all circumstances someone who is to be incarcerated for an indefinite period of time and the importance of understanding that we have gone through a steady evolution over the last 100 years in understanding how important it is to treat, yes, the causes of crime, just as truly as we treat crime itself.

If I believed that our current legislation denigrated the importance of public security and public safety, I would agree with the government and I would agree with the New Democratic Party, but that simply is not the case. It simply is not the case to say that these review boards are conducting their work as if public safety were of no concern or of no consequence to them or to anyone else.

We have allowed certain mythologies, certain stereotypes, to take over. We are failing to recognize the real risks that apply to this legislation.

I was interested that Mr. Sapers, the corrections investigations officer for the country, expressed concern about this legislation, saying it would increase the number of mentally ill people in jail, not decrease that number.

I may be at risk of being even further stereotyped by my colleagues in the other way when I say this. Shakespeare said it best:

The quality of mercy is not strain'd.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest. It becomes
The thronèd monarch better than his crown.
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings,
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself.
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice.

Let us never forget, colleagues, that mercy must season the justice that we seek.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:15 p.m.
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Calgary Centre-North Alberta

Conservative

Michelle Rempel ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment

Mr. Speaker, since we are quoting this evening, I may say, “More matter with less art”. If one is going to talk about mercy and if one is going to quote the figure of 4% acceptability, I ask my colleague this: is he assuming that there is an acceptable limit or a floor in which the circumstances that we are trying to prevent in the bill become acceptable or merciful?

I do not think that is the case, and I would implore him to think quite carefully about his answer, as those 4%, the people who are impacted, have just as many rights as those that he spoke against this evening.

That is the definition of mercy in this place, I would argue, and that is why the bill is worthy of study.

I would ask the member to explain what rights the 4% have.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:15 p.m.
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Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, if we follow down the path the member for Calgary Centre-North is suggesting we should follow, the logic would be that we would never let anybody out of prison at all, ever, if we ever thought there was any risk whatsoever of their recommitting an offence.

The fact of the matter is that those who are found to be criminally responsible for their crimes, even under all the changes to the Criminal Code that the members opposite would like to make, eventually are going to be released. The statistics show that for those people, the rate of likelihood of recommitting a crime is 44%.

What I am suggesting is that the stereotype that says the person who has been found not criminally responsible is likely to recommit a crime is false. The evidence does not support it.

The premise of the Conservative bill, which unhappily is being supported by the New Democratic Party, is that somehow the current system is broken and that there are dangerous, crazy people running around that we have to lock up for even longer. That stereotype is completely false.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:15 p.m.
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Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, this is a good discussion.

My hon. colleague for Toronto Centre was talking about a 44% recidivism rate of the prison population at large. What percentage of those are people who have committed the kinds of heinous crimes we are talking about and are concerned about with the 4%?

I do not know what the number is and I do not know whether my colleague knows or not, but there needs to be some perspective in terms of the kinds of crimes we are talking about, the not criminally responsible that we are most concerned about versus the broader prison population that has the 44% recidivism rate. I accept the member's numbers. Is there some perspective there?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:15 p.m.
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Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member is a friend of mine.

I say this to my colleague from Edmonton: even in the system that you are inventing or creating, wherein you add the category of a high-risk crime or you add the additional factors the review board has to consider, people will still be allowed out. Eventually they are going to be allowed out, once they are able to convince people that they are in fact better and are not likely to commit another crime.

Who knows? There is no perfect system that says none of those people will ever commit another crime.

The other thing you have to understand is that when we talk about the high-risk situation and the heinous crimes, not every person who is found to be not criminally responsible is guilty of a heinous crime.

There are horrible crimes. Some of them are committed by people who were found to be criminally responsible and some of them were committed by people who were found to be mentally ill and not capable of understanding their actions. In both cases we want to establish a system that does everything possible to see that people are rehabilitated and are not likely to recommit a crime.

I do not think this measure adds to the protection of the public. If I thought it would, I might change my mind.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:20 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Before we resume debate, I just want to remind all hon. members to direct their comments to the Chair rather than directly to their colleagues.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Vancouver Centre.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:20 p.m.
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Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Toronto Centre said that he is advising us not to support the bill, but we as Liberals will be voting against it on a basic premise, the premise being that Bill C-54, which is the non-criminally responsible reform act, would not achieve the desired result. Instead, it would cause more harm than good and further stigmatize the mentally ill at a time when the good work of the Mental Health Commission of Canada has begun to undo that misinformation with good evidence and is encouraging mentally ill people to seek the treatment and the early diagnosis that they need.

This is the most important thing that we want to stress here. This legislation would send mentally ill people back underground, because they will be terrified of being stigmatized in the way that they used to be in the past.

Liberals agree fully that the rights of the victims should be enhanced. We have no problem with that part of the bill. We agree that public safety is of the utmost importance and is a core part of the justice system. We have no problem with the issue of public safety, but our concern lies with the lack of balance in the bill.

The designation of high-risk offender for a person who is not criminally responsible would create a fear of the mentally ill. The point to remember is that only 0.2% of all criminal cases in the courts—any criminal case at all—is an NCR person, and only 10% of that 0.2% are violent offenders. We are talking about a very small number of people.

This is the kind of problem that we do not want to see, this knee-jerk reaction of creating legislation that would do more harm by trying to deal with a problem that has been dealt with already in a manner that has been shown to be successful with some tweaking.

We agree that the bill needs some enhancement. We would like to see an evidence-based approach that would incorporate the experience and the expertise of professionals in the field of mental health and justice. Our approach would enhance public safety by focusing on the prevention of violence by individuals with severe mental illness, and that means early diagnosis.

A lot of time should be spent in catching young offenders and diagnosing them before they offend. Many instances of NCR cases who commit violent crimes involve people who did not know they had a mental illness and suddenly had a crisis and became severely incapable of being criminally responsible. They became schizophrenic or they had an acute episode of manic depression or something that caused them to do that violent act.

Therefore, we would also like to see intervention and treatment as part of a good solid bill that would deal with this issue. Rather than adding to the stigmatization of the mentally ill by using a small number of high-profile cases to foster the impression that Canada is overrun with dangerous psychopaths, we would like to reduce the stigma. We would like to encourage Canadians suffering from severe mental illness to seek treatment. If we keep the stigma up, people with mental illness do not want to seek treatment.

That has been the whole problem over all the years, and it is why the Canadian Mental Health Commission has stepped in to deal with this issue. The government has repeated many times in the House that it wants to decrease stigmatization, but this legislation would do the exact opposite.

The mental health groups, all of whom claim that they have never been consulted by the government despite the minister saying that he had consulted them, feel very strongly about this issue.

I would like to quote the Mental Health Commission of Canada, which was created by the federal government. It says that in fact this bill

...paints an inaccurate picture of violence and mental illness. The more mental illness is stigmatized, the harder it is to get people to seek treatment and to stay in treatment. Yet treatment is the most effective preventive measure for the small number of people with mental illness who commit violent offenses.”

The Mental Health Commission of Canada, which the government has mentioned in many speeches, says that it did not necessarily approve of the bill.

Let us look at the evidence.

As I said earlier, non-criminally responsible offenders make up only 0.2% of all criminal cases, and only 10% of that 0.2%, which is 0.02%, are actually violent offenders, so we are talking about a very small group of people.

When appropriately treated, the recidivism rate of these offenders is actually 7%. However, if they are not appropriately treated in a mental institution, their recidivism rate becomes increasingly high, something like 63%.

I ask hon. members to think about it and compare 7% recidivism rate when properly treated and a 63% recidivism rate when put into the criminal justice system and imprisoned.

I want hon. members to look at what we can do, because the problem, and we have heard this said before by the Bar Association and by many people, is that if we force people who are mentally ill into this mandatory three year treatment in a hospital before they get any release leave, so lawyers tell their clients not to ask for an NCR designation. In other words, these people therefore will go to courts and they will be put into the criminal justice system, they will be put into prison and therefore we will see what damage is done and that recidivism rate will rise to 63%.

We are talking about a bill that can damage and can cause more harm than good, and I want to stress that.

The point is that the recidivism rate of all persons released from any kind of federal custody in terms of the criminal justice system and prisons is 46%. That means all people, not just people with violent crimes. The key is to recognize that NCR offenders, by being put into the appropriate criminal treatment facility as opposed to prison, will actually be able to achieve the kind of treatment they require, the ability then to go out and be rehabilitated.

I think this is the some of the problem that everyone wants to talk about, that in fact the public fear of people who have their NCR, who have been treated and are going through their actual community rehabilitation, are out on the street. This concerns people. It could be easily looked at, in spite of evidence, to ensure that every time this community rehabilitation occurs and the offenders are out in the community, that there is a custodian with them. They are actually with someone who is looking after them so they are not alone in the system. That would help to bring down the kind of public fear about which we are talking.

Let us look at the system currently. When offenders currently are NCR and they are put into the appropriate facility, which is a mental hospital, they have a yearly review. Every year they are reviewed and that is done by a review board. This has worked very well in the past. The review board has psychiatrists and other people who then decide whether the individuals have been cured and are ready for the next stage in rehabilitation, so the public safety is assured that they do not go out into the public until they are ready to go do so.

If people are concerned, we could tighten this. We could look at a judicial review instead of an ordinary review by psychiatrists only, as long as the judge who is reviewing someone is in fact learned in mental illness, how mental offenders are treated and the treatment facilities. We could live with that.

However, we do not want people to be sent to federal prison. When we demand that they have three years, a lot of people will not claim NCR and instead go into prison, and that could be a problem.

The other thing is that there are people currently in the system who may have been rehabilitated, are ready for community rehabilitation and to go back out into the system. This retroactivity in the bill would force them to stay for a further three years within the system. I do not know if this meets the charter challenge. I do not know if anyone looked at the constitutionality of that kind of mandatory incarceration of offenders for three years, regardless of whether they are ready to go out and regardless of whether people have said that they are ready to leave.

We would want to look at the bill. It does not have charter scrutiny. There are no prevention components in the bill. There is no early diagnosis of mental illness in the bill. There are no community institutional support systems in the bill. We heard this very clearly. Mr. Howard Sapers, a correctional investigator, had this to say:

My concern is that we may see an increased number of offenders going into penitentiaries who have known significant diagnosed mental illness including major psychosis, and the concerns around the capacity of the correctional service to deal with that [is a problem]

We would like to look at something else. In fact, my colleague, the hon. member for Mount Royal, had a bill when he was justice minister in our government, and it was excellent. The current Minister of Public Safety said that he thought it was a great bill. Therefore, why do we not look at that bill again? Why do we not bring it in, instead of something that would do more harm than good and stigmatize the mentally ill?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:30 p.m.
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NDP

Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am not familiar with the member for Mount Royal's bill, but based on what I heard, the Liberal Party is arguing in favour of the status quo in the system.

I have a question for the hon. member for Vancouver Centre. A victim, Isabelle Gaston, is quite vocal about the injustice of it all and is calling for changes to the system. She said:

Even if I devote my time to changing the justice system, if ministers, deputy ministers, the Barreau and the Collège des médecins do not change their ways, then injustices like this one will continue.

How will the hon. member explain to Ms. Gaston that we are keeping the system as is?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:30 p.m.
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Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Mr. Speaker, I guess the hon. member did not really listen to my speech. We did not argue for the status quo at all. We suggested that it was important to look at ways in which we could enhance public security and ensure that the anxiety of the public was brought down.

One of those ways would be to look at a judicial review instead of the review that currently is going on. We also suggested custodial community rehabilitation. Every time a rehabilitated person is put into the community, there is a custodian for a particular period of time until the psychiatrist is absolutely assured that the person is ready to be out on his or her own. We have agreed with the victims' problems. We think a judicial review should actually look at victims' impact statements. We were in agreement with some of the things that would support victims.

We are not seeking status quo at all, so I would ask the member to try to listen in future.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:30 p.m.
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Eglinton—Lawrence Ontario

Conservative

Joe Oliver ConservativeMinister of Natural Resources

Mr. Speaker, I would like to cite a few statistics relating to recidivism and then make a general point about stigmatization. It is very important that when we talk about what the risk to the public is, we try to get as close as we can to the facts. The facts are: 27.3% of not criminally responsible accused have a past finding of NCR; 38.1% of NCR accused of a sexual offence had at least one prior NCR finding; 27.7% of NCR accused of attempted murder had at least one prior NCR finding; and 19% of NCR accused of murder or homicide had at least one prior NCR finding. Those facts have to be brought into the analytical picture so we get a more objective understanding of what is in fact going on.

Few individuals, as the member opposite—

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:35 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

Order, please. Other members still have comments and questions and we have about a five minute period so we like to keep it to around one minute.

The hon. member for Vancouver Centre.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:35 p.m.
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Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have absolutely no idea where the hon. member is getting his statistics from, but we got our statistics from the source like the Mental Health Commission of Canada, the Canadian Psychiatric Association and all of the mental health groups that have collected this data over all of the years. The Canadian Bar Association also has these kinds of statistics.

However, if the member wants to talk about one prior, and we are talking about 0.2% of people in the criminal system who have committed violent acts, he should get his facts correct and look at the numbers with which he is dealing. When he is dealing with such tiny numbers, it really does not make much sense for him to quote the—

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:35 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

Order, please. The hon. member for St. Paul's.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:35 p.m.
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Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, as the member for Toronto Centre explained about the hot button issue and as the member for Vancouver Centre said, this is an issue of public safety. If lawyers are advising the accused to not plead NCR, he or she will end up on the streets earlier and with a greater recidivism rate.

Could the member explain really what it means to be NCR, what it means to have a treatable condition that very quickly can be remedied and within one year this could be a very different person than the person who committed the crime?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:35 p.m.
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Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Mr. Speaker, absolutely, because we have to understand the nature of mental illness. We have to understand that it is a mental illness, not simply a disorder, as I heard it referred to here. It is a mental illness and the many people who commit violent crimes who have a mental illness are not aware they have one. They suddenly have a schizophrenic episode or suddenly have a manic depressive episode that they have never had before, and they can have these when they are 30.

We know these are treatable people. My colleague is right. Within a year, with good treatment, these people could be ready. Many of them, when they are aware of the criminal act they have committed, are appalled at the fact that they did such a thing. Many of them become—

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:35 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

Order, please. The time has expired for this round of questions and comments.

Just to let all hon. members know, we have passed the five hour mark since the first round of speeches on this stage of the bill. From this point forward all interventions will be 10-minute speeches, followed by a 5-minute period for questions and comments.

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Etobicoke—Lakeshore.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:35 p.m.
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Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the second reading debate in support of Bill C-54, the not criminally responsible reform act. This bill would ensure that the mental disorder regime found in the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act achieves its objective of protecting the Canadian public by addressing a small but, nonetheless, significant segment of the cases that come before our country's courts, those in which a person is found to be not criminally responsible, or NCR, for his or her actions, on account of mental disorder.

In my remarks today, I would like to explain why I think Bill C-54 is a targeted measure that would advance protection of the public while upholding the fundamental principle that a person found NCR for an offence must be treated differently than an offender who is convicted of a criminal offence.

Before I address the particular reforms contained in this bill, I believe it is critical to state up front what this bill is not about. In particular, this bill is absolutely not about seeking to punish persons found not criminally responsible. In Canada's system of criminal justice, we draw a distinction between, on the one hand, individuals who possess the requisite capacity and intent to know that their conduct was wrong and, on the other hand, those individuals who are so mentally ill that their illnesses prevent them from appreciating the basic tenets of moral culpability that allow them to safely function in our society.

The verdict of not criminally responsible is the means through which our justice system mutually recognizes the fact that harmful conduct was committed, which has real consequences for the victims and society more broadly, and the reality that the individual who committed that conduct suffers from a mental disorder. It is for this reason that Bill C-54 would maintain the distinction between those found not criminally responsible and those who are convicted. The mentally disordered regime in the Criminal Code and National Defence Act creates a separate process that aims to determine the risk that the person poses to society and decides how to best mitigate that risk in all of the surrounding circumstances.

However, Canadians agree that one key consideration that is common to persons found not criminally responsible and to those who are found guilty is the protection of the public. The Supreme Court of Canada has rightfully recognized in its 2010 decision in Regina v. Conway that public safety is paramount. As a result, sometimes there is simply no other choice than to restrict the liberty of an individual who is very ill in order to mitigate the risk that his or her unique illness poses to others, to ensure that the risks to the safety of our communities are meaningfully addressed irrespective of their source. Society expects no less of the government. That is what Bill C-54 aims to achieve: a tailored and fair procedure to confront the real and significant risks posed by a small number of ill persons who commit criminal conduct.

Bill C-54 would achieve its objective by establishing a new tool for crown prosecutors that mitigates the risk posed by a small subset of accused who are found to be not criminally responsible. That tool is the discretionary option for the Crown to apply to seek a determination that a particular individual is a “high-risk accused”. The high-risk designation made by the court is to be based on all of the relevant circumstances and evidence relating to that individual's particular illness, treatment and behaviour.

In assessing the merits of Bill C-54, it is important to situate this high-risk designation in its proper context. It is not a mandatory procedure and it would not be used in each and every case where a person is found not criminally responsible. This is because the risk posed by a person who is seriously ill depends on the unique facts of his or her case. This high-risk designation would only be available in cases involving serious personal injury offences, where a court is satisfied that there is a substantial likelihood that the accused would use violence that could endanger the life or safety of another person, or where the court is of the opinion that the acts that constitute the offence were of such a brutal nature as to indicate a risk of grave physical or psychological harm to another person.

I am confident that crown prosecutors will exercise their discretion to bring such an application in instances where the public interest in keeping our communities safe is present. A further feature of the process is that the threshold in the proposed test for the high-risk designation is higher than the threshold in the standard test under the current law for continuing to supervise a mentally disordered accused and the burden of meeting this threshold is on the Crown, not the accused.

Bill C-54 also recognizes that the risk to public safety of an individual can change over time. High-risk NCR accused would still be entitled to regular reviews to determine their progress. The starting point is for them to receive annual reviews, but this review period could be extended up to three years if the accused and the Crown consent. The period can also be increased at the discretion of the review board members if they are satisfied that the high-risk NCR accused person's condition is unlikely to improve in the following three years.

This is an incremental change from the current law that already allows for extending the review period from one year to two years. It is a sensible approach that properly recognizes that each and every illness is unique, including such grave conditions that so profoundly affect the behaviour of individuals. When seen through this perspective, it becomes abundantly clear that Bill C-54 is a just and reasonable approach.

I am sure we all recognize that all serious offences are tragedies for the victims as well as for our communities. Bill C-54 would preserve confidence in the administration of justice, protect the safety of the public and uphold fair treatment of ill persons who are found not criminally responsible. It is a targeted bill that I am proud to stand in support of.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:45 p.m.
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Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to pick up on some of the points that have been made.

It is hard when battling statistics are raised in debates and people are left to wonder what the actual state of evidence is. I am persuaded by the various briefs by the Canadian Bar Association, scientists and people who have dedicated their life's work to this area, such as McGill University psychiatrists and others.

The rate of recidivism for people who actually have been found not criminally responsible is extremely small. Therefore, I was baffled by the statistics used earlier in the debate by the Minister of Natural Resources, and I wish I could have gotten a question to him. However, the best statistics I can find say that only 7.3% of designated NCR accused actually return to commit a violent offence within the next three years.

The experts in this area are saying that this is not where we need to fix the problem. They are not saying that there is no problem, but they are saying that where we really need to focus resources is on adequate treatment and identification of people with mental health issues to ensure that both they and society are protected.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:45 p.m.
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Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Natural Resources cited a few recidivism statistics, and whether it is 27.3% of NCR accused who have had past findings of NCR, or 4%, or 7% as the member stated, what is important in this legislation is that prosecutors would have some additional tools at their disposal, and we leave it to the people with the expertise to decide where and when the appropriate time is to use those tools. Ultimately, the protection of society is paramount.

I think we can all agree that these are all terrible tragedies, whether it is 4 out of 100 people who experience recidivism or 25. We need to do everything we can as a society and as a justice system to make sure that the experts and the prosecutors who deal with these kinds of things, using the advice of mental health experts, can decide whether these kinds of tools need to be applied in each individual case.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:45 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, throughout this debate this evening my colleagues in the NDP caucus have been asking a series of questions that seem to come with no response. We are supportive of the legislation. We are supportive of the principles. We have said this a number of times, but we do need answers to these important questions that we have been asking.

One question is on the fact that there appears not to have been any real discussions in any meaningful way with the provinces. Given the fact that the Conservative government has moved to cut back on health care funding, as we know, following next year, we are seeing a cut in transfers to the provinces, which was something that was done unilaterally the year before last. The concern is that the government is putting forward legislation without providing the financial support to ensure that the legislation could actually be put into effect.

Can the member comment on the cutbacks that the Conservative government is effecting in health care transfers?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:45 p.m.
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Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Speaker, no government has done more to support the provinces when it comes to transfers. Just to cite some numbers, we are currently transferring to the provinces $62 billion a year, which is up 50% since 2006. When it comes to provinces managing their budgets, we are really providing them with the resources they need through the strong economy that we have.

I want to thank the member for his question because I do recognize that NDP members have decided to support this bill and advance it through second reading. I think they recognize that there was a lot of consultation done, there is a lot of balance here, and it certainly deserves to go to committee.

To cite another voice on this, the Globe and Mail from my city of Toronto said, “The Conservative government’s proposed new law aimed at making sure severely mentally ill offenders are not set free while they’re still dangerous is a fair and measured response to the problem of Vince Li, Allan Schoenborn and Guy Turcotte”.

That is one voice, but there are many others. People have weighed in, including mental health experts and criminal law experts. Also, all the provinces and territories were consulted on this bill. That is why we think it is fair and balanced, and deserves to go to third reading.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:45 p.m.
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Calgary Centre-North Alberta

Conservative

Michelle Rempel ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of the Environment

Mr. Speaker, just before I begin my remarks tonight, when we gather in this place here late at night, away from our families, sometimes it behooves us to take a moment to remember them. With that, I beg the indulgence of the House to wish my stepfather, Randy Field, a very happy 60th birthday. I am so sorry I am missing his birthday tonight.

What is very interesting about the bill is the stage that it is at in debate here in the House. We are debating, as a group of colleagues, whether or not it has merit to move to the committee stage of review. I have spoken in this House a few times now about the difference between the how and the why of an issue. I think we need to set the record straight on the why of looking at this legislation, first.

I had some notes prepared tonight. I think I want to start off by looking at my Twitter feed. I have someone named Dave Teixeira talking about the Darcie Clarke family and thanking government members, as well as my colleagues opposite, for at least giving this legislation a chance to go to committee, because the why of the bill is important.

I have heard colleagues opposite talk about rehabilitation rates and times and the rights of the offender. We do, as legislators, have an obligation to examine the rights of all individuals in this country. However, for this legislation, the why is looking at victims of crime who are victimized, who, day after day, wonder if they are going to be threatened again, living in a state of fear. These are real people with real questions as to how they are going to be protected by us who stand here in this place. I just do not accept the premise of some of my colleagues' arguments. I am quite shocked, frankly, to hear them say that somehow this is not an issue.

What I had hoped to hear tonight was acknowledgement that the why of this issue is fundamentally important and worthy of study. That is why I am very glad to hear my colleagues opposite in the NDP at least support moving this to the committee stage, because the why here is so vitally important that we look at as legislators.

I will speak very briefly to the technical aspects of the bill. There are three components that we on the government side see it addressing.

The first is to enhance victims' rights. The legislation would enhance the safety of victims by ensuring that they are specifically considered when decisions are being made about accused persons found NCR, not criminally responsible; ensuring that they are notified when an NCR accused is discharged; and allowing non-communication orders between an NCR accused and the victim.

The second component is to put public safety first. The legislation would explicitly set out that public safety is the paramount consideration in the decision-making process related to accused persons found to be NCR.

The last component is to create a high-risk designation. The legislation would create a new designation to protect the public from high-risk NCR accused. Upon being designated by a court as a high risk, an NCR accused must be held in custody and cannot be considered for release by a review board until his or her designation is revoked by a court.

Now, some of the questions that have come up tonight are very valid and they should be looked at, at committee stage. Specifically on the question of consultation, absolutely, we want to consult with affected stakeholder groups on any legislation. That is our job as legislators. That is what we do at committee stage.

However, I think it is worth noting the amount of discussion that this legislation has generated in federal, provincial and territorial discussions between public safety ministers and ministers of justice. We have heard from our provincial and territorial counterparts that this is something that is important.

Now, why is that important? Because for such a long time, we have not addressed the rights of victims such as Miss Darcie Clarke and her family. I think that for anyone who is sitting at home, watching this debate, we would be hard-pressed to find someone who would say that this is not worthy of at least moving to committee stage.

Some of the other points that I wanted to make were with regard to some of the content of the bill; for example, that the bill proposes to expand the notice requirement so that victims would be made aware when a mentally disordered accused person is to be discharged into the community.

This is something that is quite reasonable. I think if we took it to the Canadian public or to a constituent, most people would find it reasonable to notify a victim when someone is going into the community who has committed a crime against them or their family, often an atrocious crime. I would love to hear the results of the committee phase hearings on this, of course, but I think this is something most Canadians would say is fundamentally reasonable.

The approach of the bill also reflects the reality that not all victims want to participate in some of the hearings around the NCR designation, nor do all victims want to be kept abreast of when and if an NCR accused is to be discharged. This is understandable, because people who have been victimized probably do not want to be re-traumatized over and over again. An automatic notice provision, as would be alleviated in this bill, might cause them to be further traumatized by forcing them to relive the incident. The requirement that victims must request notification is therefore intended to protect those victims who do not wish to be notified.

I will go back to the second element of Bill C-54, related specifically to the safety of victims. Currently, the mental disorder regime requires the review boards to consider on an annual basis whether or not an NCR accused still represents a significant threat to public safety. However, at present there is no requirement that the review boards take into account the safety of the victim when they conduct their analysis. That is something that is perfectly reasonable to take into consideration.

Yes, we have to look at the balance between the individual and society, as some of my colleagues have mentioned. However, in this case, to take the safety of the victim into account is something that I find reasonable. I am pretty certain that, if I took it back to my constituents, they would find it reasonable as well.

What would Bill C-54 do to change this? It would clarify that a significant threat to the safety of the public includes the safety of the victim. This would ensure that when a review board is considering whether or not an NCR accused person continues to pose a significant threat to the safety of the public, it would be required to specifically consider the safety of the victim.

This element would provide some much-needed assurance for victims who are concerned that their interests are not being adequately considered by the review boards. In that, giving victims a little bit more assurance that their rights are at least being considered by our review boards is another thing that is perfectly reasonable and should also be used to support the passage of this bill into committee stage.

This bill also proposes that the review board consider whether or not it is in the victim's interest to make an order of non-communication between an NCR accused person and the victim, and to make an order that the accused person not attend a specified place. Although it is currently possible for review boards to make these orders, the proposals in Bill C-54 would require the review board to turn its mind to the issue in every case.

These are practical solutions that could be considered to address the safety and peace of mind of a victim. The goal of these orders would be to provide increased security to victims and much-needed peace of mind and to ensure that NCR accused would not be permitted to have any contact with them. They may, in fact, be ordered to stay away from certain places, such as the victims' place of employment or their children's school.

When we stand here in this place, we have to consider all sides of an issue. I know there are very many views of how we can address the “why” of this concern, but one should not just oppose it without even giving pause to think of people who have been victimized.

We can cite recidivism rates all we want. My question to my colleagues opposite is this. What percentage is acceptable? What percentage requires us to abdicate our duty to look at those who may be affected in a situation like this?

That is why I certainly support this bill's passage to committee stage. I know the justice committee would conduct further diligence and bring in witnesses to review this bill.

I ask, with great honesty, my colleagues in the Liberal Party to at least consider voting for this at second reading due to the “why”, and to really consider asking themselves when they go home at night what percentage is acceptable.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 8:55 p.m.
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NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her comments, and I really appreciate the emphasis she gave to improvements for victims that would be contained in this legislation, because that is a large part of why we in the New Democratic Party are in support of this in principle.

I do have a concern, and that is the use of time allocation again on this bill. The chair of the Mental Health Commission of Canada, Louise Bradley, said:

We encourage all legislators and stakeholders to work together to ensure Bill C-54 strikes the right balance to encourage treatment and to avoid the unnecessary stigmatization of Canadians who live with mental illness.

Therefore, my concern is that, when we get to committee, we do hear from those who have those concerns, and see if there are changes that need to be made in this legislation that would help mitigate those concerns, because I do think the legislation is fundamentally sound. Therefore, I would like to hear some assurance from the other side that we would hear those voices at committee.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9 p.m.
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Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his very respectful comment on this issue.

I will answer the question in two parts. First, it was our government that actually established the Mental Health Commission, so we do have an emphasis on this issue. Second, as someone whose family is affected by mental health issues, I am quite cognizant of the effect that these particular disorders and illnesses have on family and people around them.

Certainly, we need to be cognizant of ensuring we are supporting those with mental health concerns, not only in this context but also in the greater health care provision. I would certainly support a full review of this at committee, ensuring we have the best legislation possible.

I do respect my colleague for stating he will support this bill's passage to the committee stage.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9 p.m.
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Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, it was of interest to me that the member from the Liberal Party spoke about lawyers advising the accused not to plead not criminally responsible, that they could go through the normal process of court and probably get out earlier. That would probably indicate to me that they are not NCR from that perspective, because they would understand that they could go through the normal court process.

This leads to my question. Could the parliamentary secretary explain to the Canadian public who is actually affected by the reforms and the three-year review period?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9 p.m.
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Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Mr. Speaker, to answer my colleague's question, I will go back to the start of my speech, and that is the substance or the “why” we are looking at this legislation.

This legislation has been proposed to be respectful of the rights of victims, as well as to provide them with additional peace of mind and security. Given their recovery from a traumatic situation, we have to be cognizant of their mental health as well. That is what this bill proposes to do. I cannot speak on behalf of some of these victims because I have never had something like this happen to me, but I can only imagine, and that is why we stand here today in support of this legislation.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9 p.m.
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Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that I am not yet at the place where I think this legislation would actually do more good than harm. I am trying to debate that in my own mind, looking at the evidence and the expertise that comes forward.

One of the experts to whom I referred earlier, Dr. Anne Crocker, professor of psychiatry at McGill University, put the statistics this way, so we really can focus on this. She said that, of all those offenders considered not criminally responsible, in B.C., Ontario and Quebec, less than 10% of that group were responsible for violent crime. Within that group, getting down to very small numbers, less than 15% went on to reoffend.

Therefore, what happens is that we have some very high-profile, extremely upsetting cases. It is devastating when we have the kind of cases that we all have on our minds as we debate this legislation. I do not need to mention the names. However, this legislation would do nothing to prevent somebody with a mental health issue who had no previous record from committing the offence. Surely, when we have experts in mental health and in the criminal justice system who are saying that the current system is not letting us down in terms of handling NCR cases and avoiding recidivism, where we are being let down is that we are not putting in place the structures to support those people so that mental health issues can be streamed into the health system and not into the criminal justice system.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9 p.m.
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Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am glad my colleague opposite has admitted that she is looking at this bill and trying to decide whether or not it should pass at the committee stage.

I implore her to at least get it to the committee stage for a few reasons. First of all, yes, we can talk about recidivism, absolutely. However, the point I am trying to make here today is that when we talk about percentages of reoccurrence, we have not acknowledged the fact that there are high-profile cases, and the lack of legislation we have in this area can lead to deep distress and a deep sense of non-peace in the minds of victims.

For that reason, it is very important that we at least examine the merits of this bill at the committee stage. I fundamentally feel that, as legislators, we cannot fail even one person in this regard, in this context. That is why it is so important.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:05 p.m.
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NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to speak to Bill C-54 on behalf of my constituents from Surrey North. Last week, in the debate on Bill C-489, I spoke about the impact the proposed legislation could have on victim rights. Today I will speak about it again but in the context of Bill C-54, which is an act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act.

Bill C-54 would modify the legislative framework in the Criminal Code and National Defence Act that applies to trials that result in an alleged offender being deemed not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. The bill presents a timely and very important discussion on mental health issues, victim rights and public safety. It is clear, in the wake of several recent highly publicized cases, that we need to examine the current legal instruments to ensure that adequate protection is awarded to the public and that victims' needs, particularly in relation to psychological healing and safety, are being considered and given the utmost priority.

However, as with any discussion in the House, we must carefully weigh the balance between perspectives. Many mental health professionals have already voiced their concerns about the effect the bill will have on people with mental health issues. Those concerns are legitimate and deserve the chance to be explored in depth. This is a fragile issue for victims, families and communities, and we must be careful that we protect the interests of all Canadians in our deliberations. Bill C-54 proposes to amend the current legislative mental disorder regime by putting public safety first, creating a high-risk designation for certain offenders and enhancing victims' involvement in the justice process.

Obviously, as members of Parliament and legislative decision-makers, we need to place Canadian interests and security as paramount in all our evaluations and resolutions. From this perspective, the public-safety-first focus Bill C-54 proposes should be reflective of the majority of Canadian legislation, and we should welcome its relevance to the common good. However, this must be met with balance. The concerns of mental health professionals are that Bill C-54 might create mass panic, resulting in increased prejudice and decreased understanding of mental illness. We need to be cautious that we are not perpetuating an unwarranted stereotype that all people with mental illness have the potential for violence.

Furthermore, Bill C-54 proposes that some offenders deemed not criminally responsible may be categorized as high risk when the person has been involved in a serious injury offence and there is a considerable likelihood of further violence that would endanger the public. High-risk offenders should be subject to an increased amount of time between review board hearings. It would be 36 months instead of the 12 months it is currently. They would also have escorted community visits, and in some cases, community visits would be eliminated.

There is a concern that some defence attorneys may avoid seeking a mental illness defence because of the limits of this designation, limiting the treatment and resources available to their clients and potentially exposing their clients to harm in traditional detention facilities.

Bill C-54 also enhances victims' involvement in the Criminal Code mental disorder regime. They would be notified, upon request, when the accused is discharged. The bill would provide for non-communication orders between the accused and the victim and would ensure that the safety of the victim was paramount in the judicial decision-making process. This element of Bill C-54 could be particularly important for the healing process of victims and their families. It might be essential to the development of a safety response strategy.

Obviously, I have reservations about the proposals in the bill, but we must equally weigh the balance of arguments of any proposal that comes across the floor of the House. Specifically, in the discussion around Bill C-54, we need to be conscious of the fact that only a small number of cases are found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder under the Criminal Code.

Furthermore, the rate of reoffending for an accused found not criminally responsible due to mental disorder is only 2.5% to 7.5% compared to a reoffending rate of 41% to 44% for federal offenders in the regular justice system. That being said, our focus in this debate must be public safety as well as justice and support for victims. We need to explore Bill C-54 in detail to ensure that it offers effective solutions for victims and adequate protection for the public. At the same time, we need to be respectful of the challenges that face people with mental health issues. We must keep the focus on prevention, treatment and support resources.

I will be supporting Bill C-54 so that it can be studied extensively. I am looking forward to the opportunity to hear from mental health professionals, legal professionals, victims' rights groups and the families of victims to ensure that we are making informed decisions that will be valuable to Canadians and will have their best interests at the core.

I would encourage my Conservative colleagues to not only listen to the professionals but to make the appropriate amendments needed to make this bill even better than its current state. I know that the Conservatives hesitate to add amendments, as we have seen over the last year or two, when 99% of the amendments introduced by my NDP colleagues have been rejected by the sitting government. I would encourage them to listen to the front-line workers and the people providing these services.

The Correctional Investigator, Howard Sapers, pointed out today in the media that he has some concerns. I am hoping that the Conservatives will listen to the concerns of not only government workers but of the people on the front lines so that we can further enhance this bill.

It is important to note that, in its current form, Bill C-54 would rest all financial obligations with the provinces. The federal government should ensure that adequate financial support is provided so that provinces have the financial capacity to carry out these responsibilities.

Bill C-54 presents an opportunity for us to review how underfunded mental health services are in Canada. In fact, recently I spoke to social service providers in my riding who have expressed their frustration in not being able to provide adequate mental health resources to their clients due to funding challenges. We must ensure that adequate funding is provided for mental health services, as their work is invaluable to prevention, treatment and advocacy for accused offenders deemed not criminally responsible due to mental disorder.

In closing, I hope the government will seriously consider the amendments proposed by the opposition parties as well as the advice and stories of mental health professionals, legal professionals, victims' families and rights groups. As policy-makers, we must be open to institutional changes that are productive and effective. We cannot present grandiose ideas with little to back them up. We must ensure that potential legislation we debate is critically explored and presents effective remedies for its intended focus.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:15 p.m.
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Liberal

Kevin Lamoureux Liberal Winnipeg North, MB

Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to talk about the whole idea of prevention and how we would love a government more focused on prevention. We have this bill before us, and I understand that the New Democrats will be supporting its passage to committee stage.

I have a question regarding the need for amendments or changes to the current legislation. I anticipate that New Democrats will be bringing forward amendments. Are they saying that if the amendments do not pass, they will not support the bill? Is there tentative support for second reading subject to amendments from the New Democratic caucus being passed?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:15 p.m.
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NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, it amazes me that every time the Liberals stand in the House, they talk about what they want to do. However, when they are in government, they basically do what the Conservatives do, which is nothing, most of the time.

My answer to the hon. member's question is that I do not have a crystal ball. In principle, we agree with this bill going to committee, and we are hoping that the Conservatives will listen to the advice provided in committee by experts and community workers and that they will make some of the changes to make this bill much better than it is already.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:15 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Surrey North for his very eloquent speech tonight. He brings a lot of experience and knowledge to the justice sector, having worked for the Justice Institute in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia. It was clear tonight from all he said. The member has great knowledge of these issues. He was asking questions other NDP members have been asking about how the government actually put together the legislation, which we support, and who they are going to be consulting with.

Another concern we on this side of the House have been raising is that ultimately, this will be downloaded onto the provinces. Members of the Conservative Party have been saying that it is not true and that they have been increasing health transfers. The Parliamentary Budget Officer says different. We are looking at 20% of health care funding for the provinces coming from the federal government. That is going to fall to 18%, then 13%, then 11%. This is a matter of real concern. We are talking about victims, yet the federal government is trying to cut back on services for health care, services for mental health and services for victims. Does that concern the member for Surrey North?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:15 p.m.
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NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have seen a trend from the Conservatives over the last two years I have been here, and I have seen the downloading of responsibilities to the provinces and the downloading of costs to the provinces. Of course, I am very concerned about what the Conservatives have been doing over the last two years and about what they have done with our health care transfer funding to the provinces, which is going to be cut over the next few years.

On issues such as mental health, we need preventive programs. We need programs that will help the mentally ill. Clearly, the Conservatives are not supporting the services needed in our communities.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:15 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, this legislation proposes to make it explicit that the review boards need to take public safety into account in their decision-making. However, when I go back to the Criminal Code, which talks about dispositions from a court or review board, it says that, in fact, the review board needs to take into consideration the need to protect the public from dangerous persons.

I do not understand even what this legislation does. How is this actually anything new, and where is the evidence that we actually need to have another provision saying to take into account public safety? I do not know if my colleague will have any answers to this, but where is the evidence that this needs to be done, and how is this different?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:15 p.m.
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NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I have similar questions for the hon. members' across the floor. We are hoping that Conservatives will provide those answers at committee. We asked those questions throughout this session earlier today, and we have not had any satisfactory answers from the government side. Hopefully, we will be getting an answer to my hon. colleague's question at the committee stage. Hopefully, the Conservatives will look at some of the amendments and some of the expert testimony we will hear at committee so that we can make a bill that truly helps victims and also addresses the needs of the mentally ill.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:20 p.m.
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Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise tonight to speak to Bill C-54. Canadians expect that their justice system will keep them safe from high-risk individuals and that is why our government has introduced Bill C-54, the not criminally responsible reform act.

It is paramount that victims' rights and public safety are balanced off with the decisions taken for high-risk patients who are accused of being not criminally responsible for their actions. Our government's intention is to strike a better balance between the need to protect society against those who pose a significant threat to the public and the need to treat the mentally disordered accused appropriately. Our government has always put victims first and we always will.

The timing of this debate unfortunately is late. Just last week in Manitoba, the Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board made a decision that I was extremely disappointed in when it granted increased community access for Mr. Vince Li.

As most of us will remember, Vince Li was on a Greyhound bus in Manitoba just outside of Portage la Prairie on July 30, 2008, when all of a sudden he started stabbing a young carnival worker by the name of Tim McLean. As the bus stopped and horrified passengers fled, Mr. Li went on to cut up Mr. McLean's body and ate parts of it. Vince Li told a mental health advocate that he heard voices, including the voice of God, telling him that Mr. McLean was an alien who he needed to destroy.

Vince Li was not found criminally responsible and was sent to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre in my riding. It was incredibly disappointing to hear the decision reached, because that decision did not put the victim's rights first and it definitely did not put public safety first, and I will speak to that in more detail.

As everyone knows from tonight's speeches, the not criminally responsible reform act, which we introduced on February 8, would do three main things.

First, it would enhance victims' rights and that includes enhancing the safety of the victims by ensuring that they would be specifically considered when decisions were made about accused persons found not criminally responsible.

Carol de Delley, who is the mother of Tim McLean, said in the Winnipeg Free Press on Monday:

I don't feel particularly safe or comfortable with Vince Li having these outings...I had the assumption before all of this happened that we all have basic human rights. So how come Timothy's aren't being considered here and only Vince Li's are?

She is concerned that now he has free and open access on the grounds at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre as well as escorted leave into Selkirk, Winnipeg, Lockport and the surrounding beautiful beaches on the south basin of Lake Winnipeg, she feels she may come into contact with him because she does not know where he is going. This is why it is important that there needs to be a non-communications order between an NCR accused and the victim as well as notifying victims when a not criminally responsible individual like Mr. Li is discharged so they can make plans as to where they are going to be in the community that day and avoid the happenstance of running into the individual who has harmed a loved one.

It is important that we put victims' rights first because the decision was just made in Winnipeg by the Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board did not at all consider the victim's rights or the family of Tim McLean. Both Tim's sister and mother read victim impact statements at that trial and again their considerations were thrown by the wayside.

The second thing the bill would do is put public safety first. Bill C-54 explicitly sets out that the public's safety is the paramount consideration in the decision-making process relating to accused persons found not criminally responsible.

This weekend at home I heard from constituents across the riding, especially constituents in the city of Selkirk, about how concerned they were that Mr. Li had free and open access to the grounds of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, beautiful grounds, unfenced, right across the street the new public library is going up, just down the street is Walmart, Canadian Tire and Home Hardware. There is all sorts of activities happening around the mental health centre. He has the ability to roam those grounds and, without being monitored, easily walk off the grounds. Therefore, the public is extremely concerned.

It is not at all comforting for people to run into Mr. Vince Li when he is being escorted in the community. Even when he has a health care worker and a security guard with him, it is still disconcerting to see Mr. Li walk past the front of their home or to bump into him in a shopping mall. Although he has escorted leave, whenever I run across a murderer who is under the control and oversight of a security officer, I do not feel any more safe knowing that security guard is there. It is more troubling to see that level of security required for an individual to be constrained while he or she is out in public.

The third thing proposed Bill C-54 will do is create a higher risk designation to protect the public from those accused who are deemed not criminally responsible. Upon being designated as a high-risk offender by a court, that person must be held in custody and cannot be considered for release by a review board until his or her designation is revoked by a court. There needs to be that higher judicial oversight that does not exist with the review board process. It allows for access to treatment for any accused person deemed not criminally responsible, so it would not affect that. It also needs to propose reforms.

Earlier I heard the concern from the member for Halifax that this was not warranted. The constituents in my community want to see this bill go through as quickly as possible. In the case of Mr. Li, it is already too late. However, our mental health centre is one of the main health centres in Manitoba. It is located in Selkirk. The public is concerned about who else might be found not criminally responsible and end up housed there.

I also heard member for Saanich—Gulf Islands say earlier that this was completely unwarranted, that there was no need for it. I do not think we need to look at all of the cases as to why we need it. However, I want to draw to everyone's attention the situation of Andre Denny.

Andre Denny was detained at a secure hospital in Halifax in 2012 after a court ruled that he was not criminally responsible for a charge of assault causing bodily harm. Under this act, he would be considered a high-risk offender. As a teenager he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. The records showed that after the court verdict, he was agitated, argumentative and paranoid in hospital. Therefore, he was a problem patient. The hospital adjusted his medication, his condition improved and he was granted supervised outings in early February 2012, just over a year ago. Several weeks later, while on a one-hour pass, he failed to return to the hospital. He is now charged with second degree murder in the beating death of activist Raymond Taavel who was killed after he tried to break up a fight between two men outside a bar.

I do not think we need to argue about the need or talk about the conditions of individuals. I know that medication does not always work for some people who struggle with mood and personality disorders. Sometimes medication can amplify the problem or create other violent tendencies. Because of that, we have to err on the side of public safety and consider the rights of the victims and their families so they do not have to endure the long, drawn-out hardship of having these people in their communities, knowing that their loved ones are never coming back because of the very violent acts committed by those individuals who have definitely been found by the courts to have some form of mental health issue. At the same time, a very horrific and heinous crime has been committed and they feel there needs to be some justification for that individual to undergo the proper treatment under close supervision, putting the rights of victims and public safety first.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:30 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, my question is for my colleague.

Why is it that, most of the time, the Conservatives' bills are punitive rather than preventive? If we really want to focus on victims, why do bills such as this one not come with financial support for victims, for example?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:30 p.m.
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Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, victims are not looking for financial help. They are not necessarily looking for increased punishment. What they are looking for is that their rights are respected, that they are put first and foremost in these decisions and that the memories of their loved ones are not insulted, like we just saw in Manitoba.

We want to ensure that we find a balance. We also have to look at the overall aspect, so we are putting, as a paramount decision, through the review board process, the victims' rights and public safety first and foremost.

If we talk to those who are impacted, some have had to go on long-term disability because of their own mental health after they lose a loved one. Our government has introduced a number of reforms to EI to help with that fact.

More important, they are not looking for those types of supports as much as they are looking to ensure public safety is put first and that their loved ones' memories are honoured.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:30 p.m.
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Conservative

Leon Benoit Conservative Vegreville—Wainwright, AB

Mr. Speaker, first, I really appreciate my colleague's presentation. However, I was kind of shocked when I heard the member for Halifax ask a question earlier. Her question was about why this was needed.

In the member's presentation, he talked about Mr. Denny, who is from the home riding of the member for Halifax. He is a perfect example of exactly why this legislation is needed. How can that member stand and ask why this is needed when a constituent of hers killed again and the victim would have been protected, probably, by a law like this?

I would like to ask the member why there is a disconnect, if he wants to take a guess, in the reasoning of this issue by the member for Halifax.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:30 p.m.
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Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, I do not think anyone who was a friend of Raymond Taavel—

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:30 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

I was.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:30 p.m.
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Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

I understand that. I am just saying that we cannot return that life. If this had been in place, it is very unlikely that Andre Denny could have done that heinous crime, that horrific second degree murder of Mr. Taavel. He was doing a lot of good in the gay community in Halifax. His family and his friends were devastated. I think we all saw the media coverage of that.

It always concerns us when somebody who is dealing with a mental health issue becomes this violent. However, for those individuals, like Mr. Denny, we have to take the measures possible to confine them and protect the public so these types of crimes do not happen.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:30 p.m.
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Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Mr. Speaker, I hear the dialogue tonight and I hear Conservative members defending the memory of Raymond Taavel from Halifax. I know the member for Halifax has raised this issue in good faith in the House.

First, we cannot bring someone back. Second, in this debate the Conservatives continue to demonize and stigmatize people with mental health issues, not to protect the public but to pit one group of Canadians against another.

Where is the member's passion to defend the rights of gay and lesbian Canadians? Where was it during the debate on same sex marriage?

While I thank the member for his interest in these issues tonight, I would ask him to actually consider his long-term perspective and his party's long-term perspective on these issues and not to use the memory of Raymond Taavel to try to take and defend a position that Raymond Taavel would find—

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:35 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Bruce Stanton

We are out of time. The hon. member for Selkirk—Interlake, a short response.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:35 p.m.
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Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, I do not find our debate here at all divisive. This is a commentary about wanting to improve the system. I appreciate the work that Raymond Taavel did on behalf of the gay community.

If the hon. member wants to talk about divisive comments, what about the leader of the Liberal Party earlier this week talking about the rights of one region of Canada versus the other? Let us pit east against west. This is what we are hearing coming from the Liberal end of this House.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:35 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to Bill C-54. The bill amends the mental disorder regime in the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act to specify that public safety comes first in the decision-making process. The bill creates a mechanism for ensuring that certain persons who have been found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder can be designated as high-risk accused. It also promotes the greater involvement of victims in the regime.

I will come back to the reasons why we must discuss the bill today. Recently, a number of very high-profile cases involving very serious offences, where the accused was declared not criminally responsible, have brought the issue to the forefront. In Quebec, there was the case of Guy Turcotte, a man who killed his two young children. This story shocked people, not just because of the violence of the act, but also because of the verdict. Even though this man obviously committed the act, he was declared not criminally responsible.

First and foremost, we want to determine how we can better help the victims in such situations. As with a number of other cases, the Turcotte case planted doubt in the minds of many people as to the effectiveness of the current approach to criminal responsibility. It is especially important to restore public confidence in the administration of justice.

According to his psychiatrist, the anger of a certain segment of the population with respect to this situation is due to a lack of understanding of how the mental disorder review board works. I would therefore like to make a few comments about the nature of the current process. First, we must reassure viewers by pointing out that the mental disorder regime in the Criminal Code applies only to a very small percentage of accused persons. It is not as if it applies to every accused person.

If an accused cannot understand the nature or the consequences of the trial and cannot communicate with his lawyer on account of a mental disorder, the court can find the person unfit to stand trial. Obviously, if that person can stand trial later, the case will be heard by a court at that time.

There is another possibility, but that would apply during the trial. If a person is found to have committed the act that constitutes an offence, but lacked the capacity to appreciate the seriousness of what they did, the court can make a special verdict of not criminally responsible. Note that they are neither convicted, nor acquitted.

A person found either unfit to stand trial or not criminally responsible for reasons of mental disorder is referred to a provincial or territorial review board, which reviews the person's situation and can make one of three possible decisions: if the person does not pose a significant threat to public safety, an absolute discharge; a conditional discharge; or, detention in custody in a hospital.

Bill C-54 would amend the Criminal Code to clarify certain provisions in the mental disorder regime and make public safety the paramount consideration in the court and the provincial review board decision-making process. The bill would amend the Criminal Code to create a process for the designation of not criminally responsible accused persons as high-risk where the person was accused of a serious personal injury offence and there is a substantial likelihood for further violence that would endanger the public. Those persons would not be granted a conditional or absolute discharge, which means they would be detained in custody in a hospital. The designation could only be revoked by the court following a recommendation of the review board.

A high-risk not criminally responsible accused person would not be allowed to go into the community unescorted, and escorted passes would only be allowed in narrow circumstances and subject to sufficient conditions to protect public safety. The review board may decide to extend the review period to up to three years for those designated high-risk, instead of annually.

The bill is also designed to enhance the safety of victims by allowing them to be more involved in the process. It is designed to ensure that victims are notified, upon request, when the accused is discharged. It also allows non-communication orders between the accused and the victim and ensures that the safety of victims is considered when decisions are made about an accused person.

The NDP agrees that public safety needs to be protected, as long as the rule of law and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms are upheld. We believe that these changes are desirable, but we need to ensure that they will allow us to deal effectively with accused individuals who are mentally ill.

According to an estimate from the justice department, Criminal Code offences in Canada cost more than $31 billion. Of that, nearly half is directly absorbed by the victims. We are talking about more than $14 billion a year. That is huge. That is the cost of medical care, hospitalization, lost wages, school absences and stolen or damaged property.

In addition to the direct victims, people close to the victims also suffer harm. It is estimated that the various costs reach $2.1 billion for third parties. Those costs are even higher if we take into consideration intangible costs such as lost productivity over a lifetime, mental health costs, psychological effects on other family members and so on. We are talking about nearly $70 billion.

Each year, crime costs Canadian taxpayers' approximately $100 billion, although we need to remember that those are just estimates. However, they give us an idea of the impact that crime can have on society as a whole.

I would like to talk more about Guy Turcotte because his is probably the best-known and highest-profile case, at least in Quebec. As I was saying, Mr. Turcotte was found not criminally responsible by the court that tried his case. The review board decided that he could leave the psychiatric facility under certain conditions. The team of psychiatrists working on his case agreed. He is no longer sick or a danger to society.

His former partner, Isabelle Gaston, is still fighting to change the system. I would like to share her words with the House, as someone else did earlier.

Even if I devote my time to changing the justice system, if ministers, deputy ministers, the Barreau and the Collège des médecins do not change their ways, then injustices like this one will continue.

The NDP supports the aim and the spirit of this bill. That is why we will vote at second reading to study it further in committee. Still, some things need to be clarified. Even though we agree for the time being, we are concerned that the proposed changes might be mere window dressing.

Allow me to explain. The most significant change contemplated in Bill C-54 is that review boards will have to make public safety the paramount consideration in their decision-making process. The fact is, they already consider public safety, so I do not see what real difference this bill will make.

There are other legitimate questions we should be asking. Were mental health experts and other stakeholders in the system consulted, or did the government work with them to ensure that this new approach is the best one? Will the government set aside additional funding for the provinces and territories to cover the cost of the review boards' new responsibilities? I do not believe so. Will additional measures be implemented to support victims? We have not heard anything about that either.

Nevertheless, the NDP and I are open to the proposed changes. We will support this bill at second reading so that the committee can study it further.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:45 p.m.
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Blackstrap Saskatchewan

Conservative

Lynne Yelich ConservativeMinister of State (Western Economic Diversification)

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to get up this evening on behalf of a mom who lives in a small town not very far from where I live. Her family was victimized. Her son was murdered brutally. Two young fellows murdered her son, Rob Vicente. He was shot twice in the head. Then he was taken, rolled out of a vehicle and shot in the head again. Then he was buried in the yard of the home of one of the murderers' grandmother.

The mom does not sleep. The family is having a very difficult time with the murderers getting off on second-degree murder. Living in a small community, they are very worried that these young people will come back.

How do we tell that mom that her story is not as important, that all the things that happened to her are not quite what we want to hear? These young people showed no remorse and the mom has to live with losing her son. What do we tell the mom that would assure her that these young men will never ever get out of jail?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:45 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, as I said at the beginning of my speech, there are some truly horrible cases like that, and this has caused the public to lose confidence in the justice system. That is one of the reasons why we want to support this bill, even though we think there are already safeguards in place against this type of crime.

Moreover, mothers like this one are victims and should receive assistance. Earlier I asked the Conservatives, twice, whether help would be provided to victims. Well, there is no such help.

If the government really wants to help this mother—and my heart goes out to her—something more than this type of bill is needed. This bill already covers most of the points made by my colleague.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:45 p.m.
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NDP

Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Mr. Speaker, my question addresses just this point.

Given that the federal government's health transfers to the provinces have started free-falling, is the hon. member concerned that the provinces will not be able to meet victims' needs?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:45 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, obviously reduced funding will make it increasingly difficult to meet victims' needs.

A number of Conservatives said they consulted with the provinces. When I asked specifically what kind of consultations these were, I did not get an answer. I would really like to know—and I still have no answer on this—whether the government consulted with the provinces on the financial aspects of this issue.

Did the provinces, if they were indeed consulted, realize they had to bear all the financial burden, and if so, did they agree to this?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:50 p.m.
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Conservative

Lynne Yelich Conservative Blackstrap, SK

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the answer to my last question, but that was my point. It was not the resources; they did get help. She went to Edmonton and joined self-help groups, but what she wanted was to see first-degree murder apply to these young people. She wants to make sure they never get out. They are going to get out in 15 years. They will have a parole review.

She does not want to have them out and released. All the self-help groups in the world are not helping her get through this. What would help her get through it is to know that those two murderers will never get out again.

What do I tell her?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:50 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, we can tell this woman that we understand what happened and that the first thing we need to deal with is public safety. That is why the NDP decided to support this bill. That will make it possible to study it in second reading and improve it. However, we care a great deal about public safety, particularly the safety of this person's child.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 9:50 p.m.
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Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the second reading debate in support of Bill C-54, the not criminally responsible reform act. I am going to focus my comments around how the bill reflects and builds upon the legal foundation provided by the Supreme Court of Canada on controlling the risks posed by the accused who are found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder, or NCR.

The bill would provide enhanced guidance to the courts in applying several key legal tests that are present in the mental disorder regime of the Criminal Code. This is the part of the Criminal Code that deals with the mentally disordered accused, including those who are found NCR. The introduction of more straightforward terminology and clearer language proposed in Bill C-54 would better ensure that the courts accord the proper weight to the protection of the public. It is about keeping it as simple and clear as possible.

At the heart of the bill is the concern for protecting public safety, which is the first and foremost duty of any government, and everybody in the House agrees with that. Certainly my constituents have told me that, time after time. It has been recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada on numerous occasions, most recently in the 2010 case of R. v. Conway, as a paramount duty of review boards in the context of dealing with NCR accused.

In that case, the Supreme Court noted that, while an NCR patient's liberty must be a major occupation of these boards, it is still situated within the fence posts of public safety. That is the first priority, and if it does not fit within those fence posts, it is not going to happen. Bill C-54 proposes to clearly articulate those fence posts in an accessible and forthright manner.

The bill would ensure that the procedures put in place for reviewing the disposition of NCR accused are tailored responses that take into account the risk that any particular individual poses to society at large. It is not a cookie-cutter approach; it goes on a case-by-case basis. This is why Bill C-54 proposes to introduce the new designation of a high-risk NCR accused. It is not intended to apply to all persons found NCR; rather it is only directed at a subset of these persons after a court is first satisfied that there is a substantial likelihood that the accused would use violence that could endanger the life or safety of another person, or after a court comes to the opinion that the acts that constitute the offence are of such a brutal nature as to indicate a risk of grave physical or psychological harm to another person.

With reference to an earlier debate we had with the member for Toronto Centre and others in the Liberal Party, I would have to ask again a rhetorical question. What level of risk is acceptable to the public? The answer, I would say, is very little.

By introducing this designation, the bill responds to the paramount interest in protecting public safety cited by the Supreme Court in Conway. Specifically, the bill addresses the cases at the highest end of the risk spectrum when applied in the appropriate circumstances.

Bill C-54 also builds on the Supreme Court of Canada's 1996 decision in Winko v. British Columbia. In that case, the court interpreted the phrase in the existing section 672.54 of the Criminal Code regarding what is “a significant threat to the safety of the public”. This is the test used in the NCR regime by a court or review board in determining whether an accused should be discharged absolutely, or with conditions, or detained in a hospital.

In Winko, the court concluded that a “significant threat to the safety of the public” means a real risk of physical or psychological harm to members of the public that is criminal in nature and serious in the sense of going beyond the merely trivial or annoying. Again, I would ask what level of risk is acceptable to the public. The answer that my constituents would give and I think most people would give is, very little.

Bill C-54 is consistent with the Supreme Court of Canada's approach. It would clarify the meaning of significant threat to the safety of the public by specifically defining it in the law as:

...the serious physical or psychological harm to members of the public — including any victim of or witness to the offence, or any person under the age of 18 years — resulting from conduct that is criminal in nature but not necessarily violent.

This clarification is specifically intended to adopt and confirm the interpretation of the Supreme Court of Canada in Winko. It ensures that a court considering the threat posed by an NCR accused is able to take into account all the appropriate circumstances, including criminal conduct that is not overtly violent but may nonetheless signal a real risk to the public.

This definition also addresses a key concern we have heard time and time again—namely, the need to ensure victims' interests are acknowledged in the criminal justice system. With this amendment, Bill C-54 would make it clear that when a court or review board considered what is a threat, it must consider not only the general public at large but also any victims, witnesses or any person under the age of 18.

This would help ensure that any particular threat or danger to the victim is not forgotten or overlooked. Safety to the public must include the safety of its most vulnerable members, and Bill C-54 recognizes and affirms this objective.

I welcome the proposed addition of this specific definition to the mental disorder regime. It would help to clarify this crucial point of law and provide assistance to the courts and review boards that have to make these very challenging decisions.

Bill C-54 aims to clarify another important issue, which is the meaning of the phrase in section 672.54 of the Criminal Code: disposition “that is the least onerous and least restrictive to the accused”. There is no mention of victims. That phrase refers to the duty of the review board to choose between the possible dispositions for an NCR accused, including absolute or conditional discharge and detention in a hospital subject to any appropriate conditions. However, it is also a phrase that is not easily understood or as clear as it could be. Therefore, Bill C-54 proposes to replace this phrase with the far more accessible and understandable wording: “that is necessary and appropriate in the circumstances”. In other words, it would give some balance between the rights of the victims and the rights of the NCR accused.

This change is consistent with the authorities I have referred to, who held that in deciding between dispositions, safety of the public must be the primary consideration. What is a necessary and appropriate disposition will depend on the threat posed by the particular NCR accused. The language of Bill C-54 would still require review boards to consider all the relevant circumstances in making such a determination.

I think many will appreciate that reviewing legal areas such as the appropriate disposition for NCR accused is not always easy for Parliament or the courts to discuss. Decisions of the courts, such as the Winko and Conway cases I have referred to, can signal to Parliament that an area of law would benefit from clarification from the legislature. Bill C-54 is an important and significant step in this direction as it pertains to the legal regime for determining appropriate dispositions for NCR accused. It is a bill that would clearly indicate that the protection of the public is the guiding principle that courts and review boards must address in arriving at dispositions under the regime.

This balanced bill deserves the approval of the House, because it should also be a guiding principle of this place that we find the correct balance between the rights of victims when dealing with criminal justice and the rights of the accused. In this case, our first priority should always be the rights of victims and the protection of the public. I urge members to vote for this bill.

From what I am hearing, I am certain the bill will pass second reading and move to committee, where it can receive fuller discussion and input from witnesses; and we can address some of the legitimate points that have been brought up tonight by members on both sides of the House.

I encourage all members of this House to join me in supporting Bill C-54. Let us get it to committee and do the right thing for victims while still doing the right thing for those who are caught up in the justice system through no fault of their own, through mental illness.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10 p.m.
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NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Mr. Speaker, first, the member for Selkirk—Interlake mischaracterized my position a little when he alleged that I said the bill was unwarranted. I did not say anything of that nature. However, I am looking forward to seeing the evidence that is out there to say we need the bill, and I am looking forward to hearing that at committee.

The bill would make explicit the fact that the review board needs to take into consideration public safety, which is the paramount consideration. I want to know if the boards are not already making public safety the paramount consideration. I have read the Criminal Code, and I think it says so explicitly. However, even if it did not, one would assume that would be the paramount consideration. Therefore, how would Bill C-54 actually do anything different?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10 p.m.
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Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, there is no bolt of lightening or anything like that to throw out the old and bring in the new. As I said, it is a matter of refining what is there. It is a matter of making the wording clearer so that review boards could have more guidance and clarity.

As I mentioned, section 672.54 of the Criminal Code says: disposition “that is least onerous and least restrictive to the accused”. It says nothing about victims. We are talking about replacing that with, “that is necessary and appropriate in the circumstances”. This is a broader statement that also brings into play the rights of the victim as well as the rights of the accused. It is a more balanced approach in our view.

My colleague raises legitimate questions. These are not simple issues. Therefore, Bill C-54 is an effort to make it clearer and make it easier for boards to come to the appropriate decision. I think once we get to committee there will be another opportunity to address more of these issues in a fuller manner.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10 p.m.
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NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Mr. Speaker, as has been said, New Democrats are pleased to support this bill at this stage. However, we have lots of questions, and that is why it should go to committee, so we can get the questions clarified, have debate and move amendments; that is, if the Conservatives accept any constructive amendments. On this side, we always live in hope.

My question to the member across the way is, basically, what the difference is between this bill and the current legislation and whether the courts and review boards already take public safety into consideration when they make their decisions.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10 p.m.
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Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would say to my hon. colleague that for all of us hope springs eternal.

My colleague from Halifax is wearing orange and my colleague from Newton—North Delta is wearing orange, and they asked the exact same question as well.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10 p.m.
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NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

We just want an answer.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10 p.m.
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Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

I am sorry, Mr. Speaker; I will have to give them the same one that I gave just a moment ago, and that is to clarify some of the language to make it simpler and more clear to review boards that this is a balanced approach between the rights of the victims and the rights of the NCR accused. It is not a cookie-cutter approach. They have to take public safety as the primary consideration, but in a balanced and more definitive way. These are the kinds of questions that can be addressed at committee with various expert witnesses, to find wording that might make it even more clear than what is in the bill right now.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10 p.m.
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NDP

Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Mr. Speaker, Samuel Clemens once said, “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect”. Tonight I find myself on the side of the majority of members in the House, as well as the majority of Canadians who are looking to us in the House to reform our treatment of NCR people.

I mention this because, by looking at real tragedies such as the Tim McLean murder or the Turcotte murders, the public is understandably outraged at what they perceive as a miscarriage of justice. The majority of Canadians usually do not agree with the verdicts given or with the way the cases are treated in general.

We in the NDP support Bill C-54 at second reading because we think we need to look seriously at how review boards handle reviews, as well as how victims' rights are considered during the reviews. However, I want to pause and reflect, because this bill needs to be studied in committee. We must not let the outrage outweigh sound policy decisions in deliberating on Bill C-54.

It is hard as a parliamentarian to separate emotion or personal ideas of justice from what is actually a sound and informed policy deliberation. I am encouraged to hear sound policy deliberations from my colleagues on both sides of the aisle tonight, and I hope we can come to a consensus to work together to put public safety first when complying with the rule of law and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

As a human being and a father, I am absolutely disgusted and puzzled. For the life of me, I cannot understand how a man can murder his children. It is horrible. I feel very emotional about it. Who would not be shaken by reading the headlines about such crimes? I was saddened to hear about Guy Turcotte. Cases like that one that receive a lot of media attention suggest that the current approach may not be effective.

I am thinking of Isabelle Gaston and all victims. I would like to know how we can help victims get through this. We need to understand that Isabelle Gaston just wanted her two children, Anne-Sophie and Olivier, to still be alive. However, no court decision will bring her children back. After the trial, Ms. Gaston wanted the media to leave her alone so that she could get on with her life.

We need to ask ourselves some serious questions. How can we help victims? The member for Okanagan—Coquihalla talked about failing victims. I am putting myself in the shoes of victims who have lost children and, in my opinion, financial compensation from the government will never soothe a parent who has lost a child. As individuals, we are not capable of determining what victims need.

In the coming weeks, I hope that we will be talking to mental health experts, victims and provincial representatives to find out what they think the best approach is.

If we rush ahead with a poorly-thought-out policy, we will not be better off. If we make only cosmetic changes for the sake of the government to merely appear as if it is acting on this file, we will not be any further advanced.

The government has had six months to put this on the agenda. It has waited six months to put this on the agenda. Let us be honest: We need expert opinions. We need to consult with victims and with provinces. If the government were honest, it would admit that both crime and mental illness are wicked problems; if we plan to solve them, we will require complex, well-thought-out solutions, and even then we might not arrive at the right solution.

The definition of a wicked problem is a problem that is “difficult or even impossible to solve because of complex interdependencies and contradictory and incomplete requirements”.

Professor Nancy C. Roberts has said there are three main approaches when approaching a wicked problem. The first is an authoritative approach, whereby all the competing points are eliminated, the problem is simplified and power is vested into fewer hands. The consequence is that not all points may be taken into account to solve the problem.

The second is a competitive approach. It is an adversarial approach in which two sides come at each other. In that approach, knowledge-sharing might not happen and parties who care about their solution winning might not come to consensus to find the best approach.

The third approach is the collaborative approach. This approach engages all stakeholders to come to a consensus, to come to a common, agreed approach.

In the NDP, we believe in that third approach, that collaborative approach.

In the coming weeks we should meet with mental health experts, victims and provinces to find out what they believe is the best approach. However, and I should caution members, we do not want to play political games or use tragedies for political advantage with this file.

Let us take Samuel Clemens' words into account and focus together, working together on crafting what is the best policy.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:10 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, I appreciated the comments of the member for Vaudreuil-Soulanges. He is a very eloquent new member of the House and does a very effective job in the House of Commons.

I appreciate his remarks particularly when it comes to the difference between what legislation purports to do and what it actually does. What goes beyond just looking at the legislation is what resources are being allocated by the federal government—in other words, what is it doing to provide the resources to support victims and support this legislation?

Throughout the evening, we have been asking questions. The member for Vaudreuil-Soulanges has been asking questions. We have not got answers back from the government about how it will provide resources for this legislation. It seems apparent that it will be put on the backs of the provinces.

When we look at the cutbacks the government is making in health transfers, we see it is basically cutting back 50% of health care transfers over the next few years. In this context, we have concerns about whether this legislation is being adequately funded.

Does the member for Vaudreuil-Soulanges share the concern about the government not providing the funding to support the legislation?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:10 p.m.
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NDP

Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very concerned about the financial implications of this bill. Indeed, I fear that the government did not do its homework and plan for adequate transfers to the provinces in order to meet their needs in the area of treating mental illness.

Let us look at the facts. A PBO document states the following:

Assuming that the new CHT escalator is maintained indefinitely, PBO projects that the share of federal CHT cash payments in provincial-territorial health spending will decrease substantially from 20.4% in 2010-11 to average 18.6% over 2011-12 to 2035-36; then 13.8% over the following 25 years; and, 11.9% over the remainder of the projection horizon.

This means that health transfers to the provinces are expected to decrease over the long term. As a result, I am very concerned about the fact that the government has not sufficiently planned how it will meet the provinces' needs in this area.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:10 p.m.
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Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Vaudreuil-Soulanges. That was a very fine speech indeed.

I want to turn our attention to another piece of this. As much as we can say we want to address the problem and that the problem is the people who are held not criminally responsible, if the legislation that is passed is not compliant with the charter, it will make things worse, even with the aims that the Conservatives claim they want to address here.

If my hon. colleague is familiar with the position of the Canadian Bar Association, its members have looked at this and at the removal of the language of the “least onerous and least restrictive” requirement, which is essential in their mind to constitutional validity of the provisions that we now have. The Supreme Court of Canada has underscored this: that if we remove, as Bill C-54 would, the language of the “least onerous and least restrictive” requirement, we may well find that this legislation would be susceptible to a constitutional challenge and that it would fail to survive.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:10 p.m.
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NDP

Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Mr. Speaker, these are definitely matters that we would like to discuss with the government side in committee. We would like to talk about the balance between the rights of individuals and the rights of victims. These are things that can be explored and debated in committee. We can discuss the serious questions about the charter and the balance between the rights of victims and the rights of individuals. That is why we are supporting it at second reading: so that it can get to committee and we can discuss these issues.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:15 p.m.
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Conservative

Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am thankful to have the opportunity today to contribute to the second reading debate on Bill C-54, the not criminally responsible reform act. The bill proposes to amend the mental disorder regime in the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act to strengthen their ability to better protect the safety of the public, as well as do a better job at responding to the needs of victims in the mental disorder regime.

It may be useful to provide a bit of background on the existing mental disorder regime before I outline the amendments proposed in Bill C-54 and why they are important reforms.

A fundamental principle of our criminal law, including the mental disorder regime, is that a person must be morally blameworthy to be criminally liable for a wrongful act or omission. They must have the mental capacity to know and appreciate what they are doing and the mental capacity to distinguish between what is right and wrong. Also, they must be able to communicate and give instructions to their lawyer and understand the nature and consequences of a criminal trial in order to be tried.

If, at the time the act was committed, a person suffered from a mental disorder that rendered that person incapable of knowing what they did or that it was wrong, the trial court can find the person committed the act in question but order a verdict of not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. If at that time of trial the mentally disordered person does not have the capacity to understand the nature and the consequences of the criminal trial, they may be found unfit to stand trial.

After either of these findings, the person will be dealt with according to the mental disorder regime, which is designed to balance the twin goals of public protection and fair treatment of the accused, usually by provincially appointed review boards. The review boards are composed of at least five members with legal and psychiatric expertise.

As I noted, the bill contains elements that address both public safety and victims. In terms of the public safety reforms, the bill would amend the Criminal Code and clarify that public safety is paramount in consideration for the review board decision-making process. Although the Supreme Court of Canada has said that public safety is already the paramount consideration, most recently in its 2010 judgment of Regina v. Conway, the proposed amendment would ensure consistent application in cases across the country.

The reforms would also codify the Supreme Court of Canada's interpretation of “significant threat to the safety of the public”, which is the current test for determining whether review boards can continue to supervise the not criminally responsible accused. The Supreme Court interpreted this phrase in the Winko case in 1999.

The amendment would also clarify that the accused need not pose a threat of violence, but must pose a real risk of physical or psychological harm to members of the public that is more than merely trivial or annoying and must be criminal in nature. This would ensure this test is applied consistently across all jurisdictions.

Bill C-54 also proposes to create a new high-risk mentally disordered accused designation scheme. This new scheme would only apply to the accused who were found not criminally responsible for a serious personal injury offence. The mental disorder regime would define a serious personal injury offence as an indictable offence involving the use or attempted use of violence, conduct endangering life or safety, or sexual offences. In these cases, the Crown would apply for the high-risk designation to be made by the court.

This designation could be made in two situations. The first would occur when the court was satisfied that there was a substantial likelihood that the not criminally responsible accused would commit violence that would endanger the life or safety of another person. The second situation would be if the court was of the opinion that the offence for which the not criminally responsible accused was found to be not criminally responsible was particularly brutal, so as to indicate a risk of grave harm to the public.

Accused persons who are found to be unfit are not included in this high-risk designated scheme because they have not yet been tried and determined by a court to have committed the act. The effect of such a judicial designation is to protect society from a high-risk individual and prevent the accused from being conditionally or absolutely discharged.

As well, a high-risk not criminally responsible accused would not be permitted unescorted passes in the community. This is particularly important. Escorted passes would only be permitted for medical reasons and only when a structured plan was in place to ensure the safety of the public.

It is important to clarify that the high-risk designation would not be permanent. Once a review board was satisfied that the high-risk, not criminally responsible accused no longer posed a substantial likelihood of committing violence that would endanger the life or safety of another person, it would make a recommendation to the superior court of criminal jurisdiction for review. The court would then hold another hearing to determine whether the designation should be removed. If it reached the same conclusion as the review board, the designation would be revoked. The accused would then become a regular not criminally responsible accused and would be dealt with under the regular procedures of the mental disorder regime. These are balanced proposals that seek to protect both the safety of the public and the rights of accused persons to fair and appropriate treatment.

I would like to return to the victim-related reforms. The mental disorder regime already offers many opportunities for victims to be involved in this process. They can attend hearings and present victim impact statements.

The proposed reforms would enhance victim involvement by providing that victims be notified, on request, when a discharge order has been made. This would ensure that victims have advance notice about the fact that they may run into the mentally disordered accused. This is especially concerning if the person is released into a small community.

The law would also be clarified explicitly to provide that the safety of victims be considered in the decision-making process. Further, Bill C-54 proposes to clarify that the review board shall consider whether it is desirable to issue a non-communication order between the not criminally responsible accused and the victim. The review board would also consider whether to order the not criminally responsible accused to not attend a specific place, such as the victim's home or place of work.

In closing, I would like to encourage all members to support this bill's passage at second reading. This is a bill that would provide balanced measures to protect public safety and enhance victim involvement in the mental disorder regime. These are reforms we should all support.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:20 p.m.
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Blackstrap Saskatchewan

Conservative

Lynne Yelich ConservativeMinister of State (Western Economic Diversification)

Mr. Speaker, I would like to have the member again emphasize how important it is for the victims to be part of decision-making and how important this legislation is for public safety to be at the forefront of decision-making.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:20 p.m.
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Conservative

Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON

Mr. Speaker, one of the important aspects of this bill is that it takes into consideration the role of the victims.

To go through an ordeal as a victim is a huge challenge, but to then have this memory revisited by potentially having the person who was convicted in your small town or place of work and not know about it would be harrowing. That is why this bill takes the rights of the victims into consideration and involves them in the process by giving them advance notice and the ability to have conditions placed upon the release.

It is the right balance. The bill recognizes the role of the victims. I applaud the minister and the team for putting that in Bill C-54.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:20 p.m.
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NDP

Jonathan Tremblay NDP Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Mr. Speaker, I think the member would likely agree that such a bill—one that changes so many measures and creates an obligation to monitor these individuals—will cost money.

After the costs are assessed, we are left with two options: the government either passes the bill onto someone else or it pays for these changes.

If these costs are not included in any programs, has the government decided what it will do? Will the provinces be left to foot the bill or will the government pay for these changes?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:20 p.m.
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Conservative

Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON

Mr. Speaker, on the issue of cost, I would note that this government has invested a lot in mental health. Since 2006, the government has invested nearly $90 million in mental health for prisoners.

In terms of transfer payments and the costs the provinces accrue, the provinces have received transfer payments that this year now total $62 million. That is nearly a 50% increase since 2006. This government has been very generous with the provinces.

What it comes down to is making sure that we have balance and fairness in our justice system. If there is a cost associated with protecting and being aware of the rights of victims in the process of ensuring public safety in our communities, then that is certainly the right decision to be made.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:25 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, after my speech earlier, I was asked about what we are supposed to tell a mother whose child was murdered. My family experienced something like that. My cousin was tortured and killed. His murderer spent the rest of his life in jail, where he died. He never got out. This bill would not have done anything to help his family.

I would like to know how the member can put so much faith in this bill that ultimately does not change very much. What is there of substance in this bill?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:25 p.m.
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Conservative

Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON

Mr. Speaker, obviously I do not know the details of the specific case raised by the member.

This legislation is important, because it would do three things. It would enhance victims rights. It would put public safety first, and it would create a very important high-risk designation. I want to speak directly to the high-risk designation.

The legislation would create a new designation to protect the public from a high-risk, not criminally responsible accused. Upon this high-risk designation by a court, a not criminally responsible accused would have to be held in custody and could not be considered for release by a review board until his or her designation was revoked by a court.

This is important for our communities. If the member is asking what the point of the bill is, it is about protecting public safety. Obviously, there is a lot of support for this in the country. Any of us who have constituents who have heard about these reforms know that there is a lot of support for it. I am glad that this government is putting victims first and is protecting public safety across the country.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:25 p.m.
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Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a real honour to speak to Bill C-54, the not criminally responsible reform act, at second reading.

As we know, the Government of Canada is committed to protecting victims of crime and to making our streets and communities safer for all Canadians. To this end, on February 8, our government introduced the not criminally responsible reform act. The act would ensure that public safety comes first in the decision-making process with respect to accused persons found not criminally responsible on account of a mental disorder. It would enhance the safety of victims and would promote greater victim involvement in the Criminal Code mental disorder regime.

When this bill was first introduced last February, I am sure that many, if not all of us, received support from across this great country. We each received a lot of input through emails, phone calls and letters and when we were at community meetings. When this was first introduced in February, there was a lot of positive response. Canadians want this. Victims need this.

The Criminal Code mental disorder regime applies to a very small percentage of accused persons. Under Canadian criminal law, if an accused person cannot understand what the nature of the trial is or its consequences and cannot communicate with his or her lawyer because of a mental disorder, the court will find that the person is unfit to stand trial. Once an accused becomes fit to stand trial, he or she is then tried for the offence for which he or she was initially charged.

If a person is found to have committed an act that constitutes an offence but lacks the capacity to appreciate what he or she did or know that it was wrong due to a mental disorder at the time, the court makes a special verdict of not criminally responsible on account of a mental disorder, also known as NCR. That person is neither convicted nor acquitted.

If a person is found to be either unfit to stand trial or NCR, the board then decides on a course of action. Under the current law, the review board can make one of three possible decisions. If the person does not pose a significant threat to public safety, there could be an absolute discharge, a conditional discharge or a detention in custody in a hospital.

Bill C-54 proposes to amend the mental disorder regime, which deals with accused persons who are found to be unfit to stand trial or are NCR.

The legislative amendments to the mental disorder regime in the Criminal Code proposed in the not criminally responsible reform act would explicitly make public safety the paramount consideration in the court and review board decision-making process related to accused persons found to be NCR or unfit to stand trial.

The legislation would amend the Criminal Code to create a process for the designation of NCR-accused persons as high risk in cases where the accused person has been found NCR of a serious personal injury offence and there is a substantial likelihood of further violence that would endanger the public, or in cases in which the acts were of such a brutal nature as to indicate a risk of grave harm to the public.

There has been a lot of comment made in the House over the last number of hours. Hopefully, that clarifies the bill. This is to be considered in the most dangerous and extreme cases. Those designated as high-risk NCR-accused persons would not be granted a conditional or absolute discharge, and the designation could only be revoked by the court following a recommendation by the review board. This designation would apply only to those found NCR and not to persons found unfit to stand trial.

The proposed legislation outlines that high-risk NCR accused persons will not be allowed to go into the community unescorted. The public supports that. Escorted passes will only be allowed in narrow circumstances and subject to significant conditions, to protect the public safety. Canadians support that. Also, the review board may decide to extend the review period for up to three years for those designated high risk, instead of annually. Canadians support that. The high-risk NCR designation will not affect access to treatment by the accused. Canadians support that.

In addition, the proposed reforms will codify the meaning of “significant threat” to the safety of the public, which is the current test used to determine whether a review board can maintain jurisdiction and continue to supervise a mentally disordered accused. It will clarify that the risk to the public safety must be criminal in nature, but not necessarily violent in form, for restrictions to be imposed upon the accused.

The legislation would enhance the safety of victims and provide them with opportunities for greater involvement in the Criminal Code mental disorder regime by ensuring that they would be notified, upon request, when the accused was discharged; allow non-communication orders between the accused and the victim; and ensure that the safety of victims be considered when decisions were made about an accused person.

This is what I have heard also from Canadians, which is the importance of the consideration of the families of the victims.

Often, we have heard that the consideration and the involvement of these families that are dealing with a loss in a traumatic situation in their lives need to be considered and way too often that has not happened.

Provisions of the proposed legislation will also help to ensure consistent interpretation and have application of the law across our great country. These proposed reforms will not change the existing Criminal Code eligibility criteria for the exception from criminally responsibility on account of mental disorder.

Since the introduction of the federal victims strategy in 2008, our government has responded to the needs of victims of crime in an effort to give them a more effective voice in the criminal justice system. Canadians are very happy with what has been accomplished.

Funding has been provided to projects and activities that enhance victim assistance programs across Canada, that promote access to justice and participation in the justice system and the development of law, policies and programs, that promote the implementation of principles, guidelines and laws designed to address the needs of victims of crime and articulate their role in the criminal justice system, that contribute to increased knowledge and awareness of the impact of victimization, the needs of victims of crime, available services, assistance in programs and legislation and also that promote, encourage and enhance governmental and non-governmental organizations' involvement in the identification of victims' needs and gaps in service and in the development and delivery of programs, services and assistance to victims, including capacity-building in the non-governmental organizations.

The legislation would enhance victims' rights. It would enhance the safety of victims by ensuring that they would be specifically considered when decisions were being made about accused persons found NCR. We will put the public safety first. The legislation would explicitly set out that public safety is the paramount consideration in the decision-making process. Also, the legislation would create a new designation to protect the public from high-risk NCR accused.

Canadians want this. Canadians need this. I encourage all members to support this.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:35 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will repeat my last question.

I mentioned that my cousin was tortured and murdered. The murderer went to jail and never got out because his crime was too horrible. He died in jail. The answer to my question was that the government wants to protect Canadians.

How would this bill have better protected Canadians when this criminal in particular remained in jail? It would not apply to him. What more will it do?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:35 p.m.
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Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, we are very sorry for the loss that she has experienced. However, law cannot be based on any one example. We heard an example from the Winnipeg, Manitoba area of a person who was released and how it had created a lot of angst within the community, about whether people's safety were at risk.

We need to have legislation built on logic that reaches a balance. We are at second reading right now. If this bill passes second reading, it will go to the committee. The justice committee will deal with this legislation and possibly make some changes to make it better.

Legislation cannot be built on one example.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:35 p.m.
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Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Mr. Speaker, one of the things my colleague described in his speech was the discretion that was utilized when it came to applying the not criminally responsible provisions in the bill.

Could the member expand on why this is really not a case of one size fits all, but that this is a tool that is being deployed and is at the disposal of prosecutors who will look at the specific examples of the case?

Could the member expand on why this is a useful adaptation for the judicial system, looking at specific cases and that it is really not a case of treating all cases the same?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:35 p.m.
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Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member brings up a very good question.

The courts still have discretion. If the courts deem an individual not criminally responsible, but that the individual involved has committed a very serious offence and is possibly a risk to the community, then that individual will have this high-risk designation. That could be removed at a future time, if the review board applies to have it removed.

Right now, someone who is found not criminally responsible does not have that designation. Having that designation for the very serious offences, provides the courts discretion but it also provides another step of assurance that public safety is paramount.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:40 p.m.
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Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Speaker, I want to return to the concern that I have expressed this evening, that despite good intentions perhaps in the way this legislation is drafted to deal with a concern the public has, which I feel is driven by the headlines as opposed to empirical evidence, we may inadvertently make the situation worse.

The courts have been very clear that the not criminally insane provisions and much of the law that surrounds them must be seen in the context of mental health and treatment and not in a more punitive approach.

In evidence of this, I would just cite briefly from Mr. Justice Binnie in the Owen case, who said:

It is of central importance to the constitutional validity of this statutory arrangement that the individual...be confined only for reasons of public protection, not punishment.

I put it for my friend from Langley, that this bill, in many areas, seems to trespass from the preventative mental health focus to one that is treating mentally ill persons as criminals and subject to more severe punishment.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:40 p.m.
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Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for being here during these late hours.

As parties, we have the opportunity to take a breather, but she is here, faithfully representing her community. I want to thank her for that. It takes a lot of effort for her to do it by herself.

To the member's question about whether this is punitive, it is absolutely not. This is reaching a balance where the courts still have discretion to put a classification on somebody who presents, or could present, a very high risk of reoffending. The paramount consideration is whether this designation needs to be put on an individual to protect the public.

The courts have the discretion. If the designation is put on, it would only be the courts that could remove it.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:40 p.m.
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NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak to this profoundly important bill before the House. Bill C-54 is one that calls for all parliamentarians to reach deeply into their experience and their commitment to making good sound public policy in the country and it calls upon us to balance some of the most important values that we have, not only as parliamentarians but as Canadians.

The proposed legislation will amend the Criminal Code to create a process for the designation of “not criminally responsible” accused persons as high risk where the accused person has been found not criminally responsible of a serious personal injury offence and there is a substantial likelihood for further violence that would endanger the public or, alternately, in cases in which the acts were of such a brutal nature as to indicate a risk of grave harm to the public.Those designated as “high-risk” accused persons will not be granted a conditional or absolute discharge and the designation can only be revoked by the court, following a recommendation of the review board. It is important that this designation will apply only to those found not criminally responsible and not to persons found unfit to stand trial.

The proposed legislation outlines that a high-risk accused person would not be allowed to go into the community unescorted and escorted passes would only be allowed in narrow circumstances and subject to sufficient conditions to protect public safety. Also, the review board may decide to extend the review period for up to three years for those designated high risk, instead of annually. The high-risk NCR designation would not affect access to treatment by the accused.

This bill would also speak to the very important role of victims in this important matter. These changes would ensure that victims were notified upon request when an accused who had been found guilty and received a not criminally responsible designation was discharged. It would allow non-communication orders to be issued between the accused and the victim. Finally, it would ensure that the safety of victims be considered when decisions were being made about an accused person.

Provisions in the proposed legislation would also help ensure consistent interpretation and application of the law across the country. These proposed reforms would not change the existing Criminal Code eligibility for the exemption from criminal responsibility on account of mental disorders.

This is a very difficult issue for victims, families and communities and for all of those involved in the criminal justice system, from the police to the prosecutors to the defence bar to the judiciary. Public safety must come first when complying with the rule of law and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but it calls on very important balancing to be done. A number of recent cases that received significant media attention in Canada raised questions about the appropriateness and effectiveness of the current approach. In particular, we want to know how we can help victims better in the process and deal sensitively, fairly and effectively with not criminally responsible offenders.

In the coming weeks, we New Democrats want to talk with mental health experts, victims and members of the bar in provinces to find out what they believe is the best approach. It is important to note that we New Democrats do not want to play political games with this file. We must focus on the policies, merits and serious issues that are involved in this matter.

I want to talk about some things that jump out as inherently positive from the bill. First, Public safety as a paramount consideration is important to note. Second, increasing the involvement of victims in the process is something that will find favour on all sides of this House. Third, the ability of victims to be notified, to have non-communication orders issued and to have their own safety be considered in all matters respecting a not criminally responsible offender are all laudable goals.

It is positive to have review boards have the option and not the obligation to extend the time for review and it is something that will expand the efficiency of our system. However, it is important to note that there are important causes for concern and pause here.

This bill proposes that there be a limit to the number of community visits for high-risk accused persons. That introduces the concept of having mandatory minimum approaches to this area of the law that I think is so typical and characteristic of the Conservative approach to crime, which study, statistics and experience of jurisdictions around the world have shown to be such an utter failure. There is also a legitimate concern about charter compliance and, very importantly, unjustifiable stigmatization of those with mental illness.

I want to address something that I think the Minister of Natural Resources mentioned a couple of hours ago, and that is the fact that a very sizable proportion of offenders who get NCR designations had some experience with the law prior. In fact, a very sizable percentage of those people had been incarcerated before. It is very important for us to note what kind of assistance is available to people with mental health issues in the current federal justice and penal systems and what the Conservatives' record is on dealing with the people who have experience with our criminal system before they get NCR designations.

There was a committee prepared in December 2010 entitled, “Mental Health and Drug and Alcohol Addiction in the Federal Correctional System”. In that report, after exhaustive study across this country, visiting some 20 federal institutions and hearing from all kinds of witnesses, there were 71 recommendations made to the government to deal with mental health in our prison system. Those recommendations were for the very people whose mental health issues first emanate in our system and end up getting NCR designations in many cases. These were some of the things recommended.

Recommendation 1 stated:

That the federal government, in cooperation with the provinces and territories, make a commitment to and a serious investment in the mental health system, in order to ease the identification of and access to treatment for people suffering from mental health and addictions before they end up in the correctional system.

Recommendation 3 stated:

That the federal government work with provinces and territories in order to ensure that police officers, Crown prosecutors and other key players in the criminal justice system be trained to recognize the symptoms of mental health problems, mental illness and drug and alcohol abuse so that they can direct offenders to the appropriate treatment services.

Recommendation 4 stated:

That the federal government work with the provinces and territories on early identification of mental health and addiction issues affecting offenders in remand, and secure access to treatment services for them in order to address conditions that are so often precursors to escalating crime and incarceration.

Recommendation 5 stated:

That the federal government support the creation and funding of more drug treatment courts to divert offenders with addictions to treatment centres and mental health courts to divert those with mental health needs to appropriate services.

Recommendation 17 stated:

That Correctional Service Canada work towards a psychologist/patient ratio of no more than 1:35 at all federal institutions.

That was evidence received from the Canadian Psychological Association.

Recommendation 19 stated:

That Correctional Service Canada add psychiatric nurses and nurses at every federal institution.

Recommendation 21 stated:

That Correctional Service Canada place a renewed focus on individualized treatment for all offenders with diagnosed mental health conditions, including addiction issues.

Recommendation 28 stated:

That Correctional Service Canada cover the cost of all medication prescribed to treat mental illness of offenders on conditional release in the community through warrant expiry.

Those are just a handful of the 71 recommendations made three years ago to the government. Do members know how many recommendations the Conservatives have put into practice? Not one, not one of 71 recommendations. Yet the Conservatives stand in the House when there is a serious media story of someone who finally commits a serious act, someone who has been involved with the correctional system, and want to pass a law that deals with the aftermath.

Here is the difference between the New Democrats and the Conservatives. New Democrats want to work to prevent crime from happening in the first place. New Democrats care more about victims than the Conservatives do because we want to make sure that there are no victims in the first place. Instead of trying to deal with the aftermath, the shattered lives of victims after crimes have been committed, New Democrats will actually put money and resources into the system, unlike the Conservatives. Instead of chasing cheap headlines and cheap answers that do not work, we will put the resources in so that people suffering from mental health in this country get the treatment they deserve that will keep them out of the penal system, out of the courts and, most importantly, keep our communities safe. That is the sensible approach to mental health in this country. That is a sensible approach to deal with people in the criminal justice system. It is the only way we are going to make the public safe in this country. That is the New Democrat way.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:50 p.m.
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Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I want to pick up on a point my hon. colleague made about wanting more mental health professionals in the system. It is very laudable and a very appropriate thing to do. The NDP railed against this for another issue that involved that and that was getting more mental health professionals into the military system to deal with veterans and PTSD and so on. We started with 225, tried to get to 450, we have it to about 350 and that is far as we can get because those people simply do not exist. It came to the point where the civilian mental health world was getting a little cranky with the Canadian Armed Forces because they were taking all the people and there were none left for anyone else.

This is not a criticism of the member's statement. The question is, when there is such a paucity of mental health professionals and we cannot get there with Veterans Affairs or the Canadian Armed Forces, how does he suggest that we overcome that challenge for the bigger picture of getting more mental health professionals into the prison system?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:50 p.m.
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NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question and one that the committee looked at extensively in 2010, because there is a problem attracting and retaining health care professionals into the prison system. We looked into that very issue. In fact, recommendation 16 of our report says that Correctional Service Canada should develop an attraction and retention program for psychologists, nurses, psychiatric nurses, occupational therapists, social workers and other necessary professionals including paying market salaries, that Correctional Service Canada provide for dedicated budgets for the ongoing training of health professionals in order to make the environment more attractive to them.

These were two very tangible recommendations already made to the government three years ago. A further suggestion that was made as well was to locate prisons near hospitals, as is happening in Saskatchewan, where there can be a synergy between the psychology and psychiatric divisions of hospitals and universities working with the prison.

These are the kinds of innovative measures that have been taken in other countries and this is why the countries are having greater success at lowering recidivism rates than Canada is. But how much money have the Conservatives put in the Correctional Service system in terms of adding to the salaries to attract these professionals to the prison system? They have not done the job. They did not get the job done and that is why there is a paucity of those professionals in our system.

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May 27th, 2013 / 10:55 p.m.
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NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Mr. Speaker, thanks to the member for Vancouver Kingsway for putting forward the committee report on the record. It is very clear that the government seems to pay lip service to the whole issue of mental health services in this country.

I am wondering two things. One is that we have seen the Conservative government actually cut back on crime prevention programs. The member for Vancouver Kingsway said very eloquently a few moments ago the difference between New Democrats and Conservatives is Conservatives will perhaps do something after the fact, but New Democrats want to prevent the crime from being perpetrated in the first place.

Is the member concerned about the government's propensity to eliminate the funding that would actually prevent victims from being victims and prevent crimes from being committed?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:55 p.m.
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NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Mr. Speaker, not only has the Conservative government failed to add resources to make a meaningful improvement to treating mental health in our prisons, it has cut resources.

We had the prison farm system at a number of institutions in this country that was a resounding success, where we had mentally ill offenders working with animals. Prison psychologists and psychiatrists pointed out that it made a profound difference in the abilities of these people. Many of them had difficulty relating well to other human beings, but through the use of animal husbandry and other responsibilities, they learned the value of work and learned how to relate to other living beings.

The government cut the CORCAN program, a program where prisoners learned skills and trades and would build furniture that would then be sold to the federal government at reduced rates and give them a reason to work and adequate skills. There are closed CORCAN industrial arts places across this country in prisons.

Finally, there is not one stand-alone psychiatric facility for women in this country. The only one in Saskatchewan is in a male institution. There was a little part carved off for women in the middle of a male institution. Most of those women have been sexually abused or suffered from traumatic abuse and they are in the middle of a male institution. In our report we recommended that there be a stand-alone women's psychiatric facility. The government would not even do that.

Not only did it not put the resources in, it has cut the very resources in our system that would actually make our communities safer.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 10:55 p.m.
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Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, it has been a pleasant evening listening to the debate on this important piece of legislation. Canadians have been talking about and asking for this legislation. They want to see some changes in this area with regard to the Canadian Criminal Code.

The not criminally responsible reform act was introduced on February 8, 2013. This legislation would, in brief, enhance victims rights. The legislation would enhance the safety of victims by ensuring that they are specifically considered when decisions are being made about an accused person, an NCR, and ensure that they are notified when an NCR accused is discharged. The bill would allow non-communication orders between an NCR accused and the victim.

Putting public safety first of course is our main concern. The legislation explicitly sets out the public safety parameter considerations in the decision-making process relating to accused persons found to be NCR. The legislation would create a new designation to protect the public from high-risk NCR accused. Upon being designated by the court as a high risk, an NCR accused must be held in custody and cannot be considered for release by a review board until the designation has been revoked by the courts.

There are some good questions that I will go through here. I will talk about what some of my constituents have been telling me and some of the questions they have in regard to this piece of legislation and why it is so important. Why do we not look at those questions in the order that some of them have addressed to me?

One of the questions that I have had is, what happens to someone who is found not criminally responsible? If a person is found to have committed an act that constitutes an offence but lacks the capacity to appreciate what he or she did or know that it was wrong due to a mental disorder at the time, the court makes a special verdict of not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. The person is neither convicted nor acquitted. Instead, that person is referred to a provincial or territorial review board, which decides on the course of action to both protect the public and provide opportunities for treatment for the underlying mental disorder. Under the current law, a review board can make one of three possible decisions: an absolute discharge for a person who does not pose a significant threat to public safety, a conditional discharge or detention in custody in hospital.

One of the other questions that I have been asked is, how will the proposed amendments better protect Canadians? The highest priority of this government is to keep citizens safe. This legislation would amend the mental disorder regime of the Criminal Code proposed in the not criminally responsible reform act and explicitly set out that public safety is the paramount consideration in the court and review board decision-making process relating to an accused person found to be not criminally responsible on account of mental disorders or unfit to stand trial.

The legislation would also amend the Criminal Code to create a process to designate an accused person found NCR for serious personal injury offences who poses a substantial risk to commit further violent acts as a high-risk accused. Upon being designated by the court, a high-risk NCR accused must be held in custody and cannot be considered for release by a review board until the high risk status is revoked by the court.

The other consequences of being designated as a high-risk NCR accused include his or her review period being extended up to three years. Such individuals would not be entitled to unescorted passes and could only obtain an escorted pass in narrow circumstances and subject to sufficient conditions to protect the public safety.

Why does the high-risk NCR designation apply to those found unfit to stand trial? The high-risk accused designation only applies to the verdict of an NCR because the person was found by the courts to have committed the alleged act and an unfit accused has not yet been tried for the offence. If a person is not fit to stand trial, he or she would not be fit to participate in a high-risk hearing. The majority of unfit accused become fit within a very short period of time at which point they would be tried. An individual may be convicted as charged, acquitted or found NCR. If found NCR, the individual could be subject to a high-risk designation if the criteria were met.

Will legislation increase the possibility of an NCR accused person being kept in custody longer or indefinitely regardless of whether he or she continues to pose a risk to society? This is a good question. As long as the NCR accused person continued to pose a risk to public safety, the individual would remain under supervision of the provincial or territorial review board. The issue of whether the individual is kept in custody in a hospital or under conditional discharge would depend on the level of risk in each case. The creation of a high-risk NCR accused designation further enhances public safety while ensuring judicial and review board oversight and ongoing detention of these individuals. The possibility of indefinite detention exists under the current law and would continue to exist under the proposed law.

Why is this legislation tightening the eligibility criteria for the Criminal Code defence and mental disorders?

The purpose of the legislation is focusing on the decision-making process after a person has been found NCR. This proposed legislation responds to the primary concerns of the stakeholders, including victims as well as provincial and territorial governments.

Will these amendments apply to all accused persons who suffer from a mental illness who come into contact with the criminal justice system? No. The bill only applies to accused persons who are either found unfit to stand trial on account of mental disorder or who are found by the court to be NCR.

What is the difference between someone who is found unfit to stand trial and someone who is found not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder? That is again another good question.

Under criminal law, if an accused person cannot understand the nature of the trial or its consequences and cannot communicate with his or her lawyer on account of mental disorder, the court will find that person unfit to stand trial. Once an accused becomes fit to stand trial, that person will then be tried for the offence with which they were initially charged.

If a person is found to have committed an act that constitutes an offence but lacks the capacity to appreciate what they did or know that it is wrong due to mental disorder at the time, the court makes a special verdict of not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. Such a person is neither convicted nor acquitted.

Do these reforms address situations like the one that occurred with Ashley Smith? No, they do not. The bill does not deal with the correctional system. Persons found to be NCR are unfit to stand trial on account of mental disorder and are not imprisoned. They may, however, be detained in a hospital or psychiatric facility.

What information or research does the government have on reoffending by NCR accused persons to justify these reforms? There has been a limited amount of data on the rates of reoffending by NCR accused persons. What we do know about NCR accused persons is that the majority have committed serious acts that brought them into the review board system. These reforms will provide the data we consider necessary for public safety to come first. Let me make that point clear: public safety must come first.

Why are changes to the current regime for NCR accused being proposed? Is there evidence that the system is not working?

Recent high-profile cases, including in British Columbia, Manitoba, Quebec, Nova Scotia, have caused Canadians to question whether or not the laws are strong or clear enough to ensure that public safety is given paramount consideration in decision-making.

Stakeholders, including victims, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for justice and public safety, and concerned Canadians have urged the government to take action that would ensure the safety of the public is paramount in consideration of the decision-making process regarding NCR accused persons and enhance the role of victims in the process.

The responsibility of the ongoing monitoring of NCR accused persons rests with the provincial established review boards.

If the bill passes, would it prevent people like Guy Turcotte, Vince Li, Alan Schoenborn and Andre Denny from being released into the community?

This proposed legislation provides important new tools to deal with high-risk NCR accused and ensure that the concerns of the victims are heard. It would not be appropriate to comment on specific cases, of course.

What were some of the concerns raised by victims? This is important because the victims should be considered.

Victims were concerned that their safety was not being specifically taken into consideration by review boards when they made a disposition. Victims often expressed concern that they often had no way of knowing if and when an NCR accused would be given access to the community and were afraid that they would unexpectedly run into them without being adequately prepared.

That would be a shock. A victim would walk down the street and all of a sudden see the person who did harm to a family member, colleague or friend and not know about it. I do not think that is acceptable and I do not think that constituents accept it, which is another reason the bill is moving forward.

How would the bill respond to the concerns raised by victims? The bill would enhance the safety of victims and provide an opportunity for greater involvement of the victims in the Criminal Code mental disorder regime. The legislation would help ensure that victims were notified upon request when an NCR accused is discharged, allow a non-communication order between NCR accused and the victim and ensure that the safety of the victims would be considered when decisions are being made about an NCR accused person.

What are the concerns raised by provinces and territories? Some provinces and territories expressed concerns that public safety was not being adequately taken into consideration by review boards when determining which decision to order for a mentally disordered accused.

How would our new legislation address the concerns raised by these provinces and territories? Addressing concerns raised by victims, provinces and territories, the proposed legislation would clarify that the safety of the victim must specifically be considered and that public safety must always be of paramount consideration in the review of decisions.

There are lots of questions and there are lots of good answers. That is why it is a good idea to get this bill to the next stage and to move it forward to committee. I notice that the New Democrats have some questions, and I look forward to their participation in the committee work.

I see this piece of legislation actually meeting the needs that our constituents have asked the government to meet, by making sure victims are understood and their rights are protected in these situations.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:05 p.m.
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NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Speaker, the member mentioned that he is looking forward to working in committee. I presume that he sits on this committee, but I am not certain that I understood correctly.

I wonder if the Conservative members plan on listening to the witnesses this time because, most of the time, they interpret what the witnesses say. Do they intend to really listen to the expert witnesses on mental health, for example, and to act on the suggestions made by these witnesses?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:05 p.m.
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Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, that is one thing we always do. We always listen to all the witnesses, and we evaluate what they say and how they participate in the committee work. I look forward to seeing them work with all sides of the House to bring forward the best piece of legislation.

However, we must keep in mind that as this legislation was being drafted, we talked to a lot of people. We addressed and talked with a lot of victims and specialists in this field. We will find that a lot of witnesses who come forward to committee actually back this piece of legislation and say we have come very close and have done very well in bringing forward what is required for them to do their jobs.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:05 p.m.
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Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Mr. Speaker, with regard to NCR, the NDP has been speaking all night specifically on criminal issues and how we are going to try to deal with those who are within the criminal system.

The proposed reforms would extend the annual review to three years with regard to the NCR. I wonder if my colleague could talk about that a bit?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:10 p.m.
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Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for his question and I appreciate all the hard work he has done on this file. I know he has put a lot of time and effort into it and it is something he is taking very seriously. I appreciate that.

He asks a good question. What it would do is change the review period from an annual review to a three-year review. This is a situation where the accused would not have to go through this review every year. Instead of having to look at the possibility of this person coming up for review and release every year, and going through the process of being a victim and testifying in this type of situation, it would only be once every three years.

That would provide a little bit more stability for the victims and the families of the victims to proceed with their lives and move on and get this type of horrible situation behind them.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:10 p.m.
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NDP

Jonathan Tremblay NDP Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will try to ask my question very simply to ensure that the member does not go off topic in his reply.

There are costs associated with a bill such as this. Who will foot the bill?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:10 p.m.
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Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, I guess there are a lot of questions that need to be answered.

There is cost involved. There is also cost in being a victim. There is cost involved in having a family member put into this type of situation and trying to recover from that. There are a lot of costs that need to be considered, and the appropriate governments will take on their role in paying for the costs accordingly.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:10 p.m.
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NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am actually going to ask the same question again. The member pointed out that there are governments that will bear this cost. What we have heard from the justice official is that the costs would be paid by the provinces.

Have they discussed this with the provinces, in particular with regard to costs being downloaded to the provinces?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:10 p.m.
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Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Speaker, it was actually the provinces that asked us to do this to protect society.

I would like to remind members that we have invested close to $376 million in mental health research and continuing work for the provinces. We will continue to that as it is required.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:10 p.m.
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NDP

Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise tonight to speak in support of Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the National Defence Act (mental disorder).

The NDP supports sending the bill to committee. As a number of people have said before me, there are some serious flaws in the bill that we want to address there. I have heard some welcoming comments from members across the aisle that they are looking forward to our amendments. I hope they really want to work with the opposition to make the legislation work. With that in mind, I am sure that the NDP representatives on the committee will put their hearts and souls into writing those amendments.

However, it will be the first time since I have been in the House.

I do not think there is anybody in this room who would disagree that public safety is paramount. No matter what part of the country one goes to, whether one has children or not, people really care about their communities and making sure they are safe.

I have strong feelings about the very poor job we are doing as a country and in the provinces addressing mental health issues. Recent reports show that depression is on the increase. The economic and health care costs related to that are huge.

For example, in my province of British Columbia, we saw many institutions that used to house people with mental disabilities and disorders shut down. Where did those people go? They ended up on the streets getting into all kinds of trouble, simply because they are ill and not able to manage on their own.

Bill C-54 is not talking about that larger group. We are talking about a very tiny group. It is a very small percentage of those with mental disorders who commit serious violent crimes. That is the crux of the legislation.

As many members are aware, based on a psychiatric report, even those who commit serious violent crimes can be released. We have examples of that. I have an example in my riding. A mother comes to see me quite regularly because she just cannot understand how that can happen.

We are talking about those who commit serious violent crimes. They would go before a review board, and now the victims would have a right to go to the review board and make impact statements. Not everybody can do that. Not every victim would be able to face the person who did them harm directly or indirectly. However, it is a very important part of the healing process and the social justice process for a person to be able to give an account of the impact a crime has had. I think that is a welcome piece of this legislation.

Of course, when the psychiatric review board made a decision, it would be reviewed by the courts before the accused was released. That is an additional element to ensure public safety and keep our communities safe.

It seems reasonable that before we release somebody, we would want to have that review so the medical and psychiatric professions have their input. A review board takes place at that time, impact statements are made and as a measure to ensure that everything is on track, the court will review that before the person is released. All of that sounds really good.

Then we get to the crux of the matter, which is who will pay for this? If this is more downloading of costs to the provinces, then I will have some serious concerns because we have had so much downloading of costs to them. There is so much they have had to pick up. We know where that ends up in each province. In British Columbia it has led to impacting the education and health care systems and many other programs. Therefore, we want to ensure we look at that.

As I mentioned earlier on, having been a teacher and counsellor in a high school, as well as a counsellor in the community, what hits me hard is that I absolutely believe in our judicial system, which is a rehabilitative system, but I also believe in prevention programs and taking proactive steps. It is high time the federal and provincial parties work together to find ways to address mental health issues as well as the costs associated with that.

Some people would say that we cannot afford to do that. However, the costs of incarceration are eightfold to the cost of quality education. It seems that in many cases we are not willing to spend $8,000 a year on educating a child, but we are willing to spend $60,000 to $100,000 a year to incarcerate people and keep them in prison. If incarceration were a judgment of how safe we are as a society, we just have to look to the south where the U.S. probably has a very high number of people in prisons. It does not make its streets and communities any safer. I would say it is less so.

We are pleased to support this and send it to committee where we will bring in amendments. We are pleased to see that for the very small percentage of people with mental disorders who commit violent crimes there will be an opportunity for victims to make statements. Also, through Bill C-10, there will be a review by the courts for those people to be released.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:20 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

It being 11:22 p.m., pursuant to an order made earlier today, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill now before the House.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:20 p.m.
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Some hon. members

Agreed.

No.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:20 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:20 p.m.
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Some hon. members

Yea.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:20 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

All those opposed will please say nay.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:20 p.m.
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Some hon. members

Nay.

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:20 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Second ReadingNot Criminally Responsible Reform ActGovernment Orders

May 27th, 2013 / 11:20 p.m.
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Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Barry Devolin

Pursuant to an order made Wednesday, May 22 the division stands deferred until Tuesday, May 28 at the expiry of time provided for oral questions.