Evidence of meeting #6 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was malt.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley
Thank you very much for your questions, Mr. Preston.
We'll now go to Mr. Atamanenko for five minutes, please.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC
Thank you, and thanks to both of you for being here.
I'll put my watch out here, to make sure I don't talk too much and don't give you a chance to respond.
November 21st, 2013 / 4:15 p.m.
NDP
Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC
As you're probably aware, my party is reserving judgment on CETA until we see the details of the text. That makes sense when we have any kind of agreement.
I have here an op-ed by the president of the National Farmers Union, Terry Boehm, which appeared in the Union Farmer Quarterly in the spring of 2013. He talks about UPOV 91. I wouldn't mind getting your feedback on this since I'm not sure if I understand this correctly.
He starts off by saying there is pressure by the Canadian Seed Trade Association, seed companies, “to change our legislation to the much more” what he calls “restrictive UPOV 91”, and it is being sold....“...is required for Canada to have access to improved and innovative varieties”. He says it sounds good on the surface. Then he goes on to do an analysis of it.
He says that farmers cannot imagine being denied the ability to save, re-use, exchange, or sell seeds to a neighbour and plant a crop with the harvest being theirs and theirs alone. UPOV 91 wants to change all of that. It will happen through breeders’ rights which will trump farmers' privilege every time or make it so expensive farmers will not bother to save seeds any longer. He says the first right plant breeders will have is the so-called cascading right which gives plant breeders the ability to collect royalties beyond the seed itself to harvested material and even processed products. This would mean that if the farmer had used a protected variety, royalties could be collected at any time including when he sells his crop. Yet no one is defining how high the royalties would be and what would be done with them. It is not clear if the farmer would be responsible for the royalties for just the seed it took to produce the crop or for the whole crop. He mentioned these are undefined and would be left for courts to determine.
He talks about the next right, which is the ability for breeders to control the conditioning, cleaning, treating, stocking, storing, sale, import and export of seed. He says, “If a farmer cannot get his seed cleaned, he will not plant it. If he cannot store grain for the purpose of seeding, how can he exercise his so-called privilege?”
I want to give you some time to respond.
4:15 p.m.
Chairman, Barley Council of Canada Working Group
I want to identify the question. You lost me.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC
I would like your comments on what Terry is saying, because I think that as with any agreement, any regulation, we need to look at the details. He has some questions on UPOV 91. He's talking about the so-called cascading right. He's a farmer also, so that's his point of view. I'm wondering what your point of view would be, as a farmer.
4:20 p.m.
Chairman, Barley Council of Canada Working Group
I have already stated that UPOV 91 does not threaten a farmer's ability to save his own seed. It doesn't. That's in the protocol.
Where it does stop a farmer, and quite frankly, I support that you can't take that seed.... You're going to pay a royalty on it when you get it. I always do. I buy new seed every year, and when I pay for that seed, part of the cost of that seed is a royalty that goes back to the breeder who developed that variety. Where I have a problem is if a farmer, such as myself, were to buy that seed, pay the royalty on it, and then a neighbour comes the next year and says he'd like some of that seed and I sell it to him for whatever, and no royalty goes back to the breeder. How do we maintain breeding programs in Canada if we don't make sure we have funds in place to reward that person who developed the seed so he can carry on with varietal development? That's where I have a problem.
If farmers want to save it for themselves, I don't have a problem with that. I think that's right. But what they are doing effectively, by selling that seed to another farmer, is providing that seed with no royalty. That other farmer hasn't had to pay the same cost as you. Quite frankly, as a farmer, if I take my pocketbook out and pay for the variety, so should the farmer who wants that seed.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC
Is there a danger under UPOV 91 that the royalties could be paid, as Terry mentions, along the line and not only for the seed and we won't know how much they are? Is there a danger of that? Have you looked into that?
4:20 p.m.
Chairman, Barley Council of Canada Working Group
There might be the opportunity to do that, but again, I haven't looked that deeply into it. What you're talking about is probably end-point royalties.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC
Do you think it would it be worthwhile for that to be looked into before we sign this?
4:20 p.m.
Chairman, Barley Council of Canada Working Group
I think what we have to look at is the state of our varietal development in Canada and the funding of it.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bev Shipley
Thank you very much for your comments.
I'll go now to Mr. Zimmer, please, for five minutes.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Thank you for coming, Brian. It's good to see you again.
We've discussed Canadian market freedom and other things that we have done on our watch that we think have made Canadian farmers more competitive, especially western Canadian farmers—at least making them equal to the rest of the Canadian farmers who are already there. So we've been working on this, and it looks like you get the open market, and you see the opportunity that's there. I guess we are the glass is half-full side, and there's the glass that's half-empty side. I understand that, and I appreciate your positive expectation of what's out there.
To build on that a bit, you said that you farm crops other than just barley, but from just a barley perspective to start with, we've talked about feed and malt barleys. As a barley farmer, what other potential markets do you see?
I have another question about what products are already in the Canadian consumer market that use barley, for the information of committee members who may not know. Are there other opportunities that we can use to sell some of these products to Europe?
There is a lot there, but what do you see as the potential for barley in the future other than feed and the typical thing that we understand barley for?
4:20 p.m.
Chairman, Barley Council of Canada Working Group
I think there are some opportunities, and Lisa can speak to this on the food side better than I can. Again, we're not talking beer because I call that the “liquid food” side of it.
I don't know whether many people are aware of it, but there is barley flour available on the shelves in grocery stores now. Certainly that's a market that, as we move through the health food side of it, I'm certain has opportunities.
There's one that's not talked about a lot, and certainly it's fallen on the back burner, and that's the ethanol industry. Barley has a very good fit in the ethanol industry; the ethanol production from barley fits very well. So there's an opportunity there, although I think that we're past making the ethanol side of things the focus area.
When you talk about opportunities for barley—I've said it earlier—the craft brewing industry has absolutely exploded. Certainly, when I talk to the maltsters, there's more and more demand for malt barley through these small craft breweries.
In my opinion, as the image of barley becomes more focused on being a healthy food, there's going to be more and more opportunity to expand the barley acreage, especially in Canada.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Lisa, are there any other consumer products out there involving barley that you would know of that Brian hasn't mentioned, or do you see any other opportunities that are out there?
4:25 p.m.
President, Canadian Agri-Food Trade Alliance, General Manager , Alberta Barley Commission
I think the biggest opportunity for food barley marketing relates to barley flour, which Brian mentioned, as well as to using barley in other food products such as risotto. Quick-cook barley is one that is in development. The big push for barley right now for us is to create a food barley market that makes sense. To do that generally means barley flour with wheat flour. We are developing a large-scale bakery blend that could be used in all different marketplaces. We're also going to be focusing on developing recipes for food service size operations, and then it could explode anywhere.
If you have three micrograms of beta-glucan per serving, that would meet the Health Canada health claim requirements, which means we can start marketing it as a healthy food as well, so there is unlimited potential because right now the market is so small.
The other thing that we keep not mentioning because it is minuscule overall is that barley malt is used in many food products. If you look at your Rice Krispies, there's a reason that there's now gluten-free Rice Krispies, because in the regular Rice Krispies there's barley malt and in the gluten-free there isn't. Although barley isn't gluten-free, it's low gluten, which of course is another marketing opportunity.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Brian, this is just an overarching theme again, the half-full theme being what I'm going to ask you about.
You see the potential of CETA overall because you're a farmer and you said you farm other grains too. What's the sense of the farmers out there who you've talked to about the agreement? I'm sure there are a lot of unknowns to them, and they don't know what's all there, but what's the overarching attitude towards CETA in the farming community?
4:25 p.m.
Chairman, Barley Council of Canada Working Group
Farmers are very optimistic. What I'm hearing from the farmers I talk to is that we need trade, we need to export our product. Certainly, every agreement that we can sign in the world marketplace is good for Canadian agriculture.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Francine Raynault NDP Joliette, QC
We know that barley is used to feed hogs, and we hope that pork producers will be willing to increase their production, or at least send what they are currently producing to Europe. However, none of the 27 countries of the European Union are among the 10 biggest export markets for Canadian pork. How will you ensure that our pork is sold in the 27 countries of the European Union, while enough barley is being produced to feed the hogs and export some to Europe?