Evidence of meeting #4 for Bill C-11 (41st Parliament, 1st Session) in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was radio.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Skolnik  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Musicians
Don Conway  President, Pineridge Broadcasting
Ian MacKay  President, Re:Sound Music Licensing Company
Aline Côté  President, Les Éditions Berger, Association nationale des éditeurs de livres
Jean Bouchard  Vice-President and General Manager, Groupe Modulo, Association nationale des éditeurs de livres
Cynthia Andrew  Policy Analyst, Ontario Public School Boards Association, Canadian School Boards Association
Michèle Clarke  Director, Government Relations and Policy Research, Public Affairs, Association of Canadian Community Colleges
Claude Brulé  Dean, Algonquin College, Association of Canadian Community Colleges

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

And thank you all for being here. I enjoyed your presentations.

Mr. MacKay, you've proposed an amendment that would repeal the $1.25 million exemption. Is that correct?

9:50 a.m.

President, Re:Sound Music Licensing Company

Ian MacKay

That's correct.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Mr. Conway, I think you talked about actually expanding that. How would repealing that affect your small radio station?

9:50 a.m.

President, Pineridge Broadcasting

Don Conway

I think I've already mentioned the state of affairs last year. Last year, to be fair, it was retroactive tariffs. We were nailed with retroactive tariffs. Maybe the big guys can swallow it, but it hurt the little guys like us who live on cashflow. It created a non-profit situation.

When we live that close to the profit-loss line and we have to determine whether or not we can hire another person here to do this, even though we really need to, if you're going to take away the $1.25 million, that's substantially going to impact on my being able to hire somebody else. If I can't hire somebody else, I can't grow my revenues. If I can't grow my revenues, I can't pay the artist anymore.

So you either cut off the leg over here or allow me to grow over here—one or the other.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Mr. Conway, your business has obviously changed, and your business model has changed. As it is, technology changes; everything changes. It's changing things for artists, it's changing things for producers, it's changing things for broadcasters like yourself.

A recent change that's growing in radio, from what I've been told, is the impact of satellite radio. Have you seen satellite radio damage your ratings, or does the fact that you focus so much on local content protect you from that?

9:55 a.m.

President, Pineridge Broadcasting

Don Conway

We live right beside Toronto. There are 40 radio stations that come into our little Cobourg-Port Hope-Northumberland market. Our station finished number one and number two. We play the same music those guys do. The only thing is, if there is a snowstorm, they can't tune to CHUM-FM in Toronto to find out what's happening to their bus number. That's why we finished number one and number two. That's the same model we're now taking to our new station in Peterborough. That's the only way a local radio station can survive now. They've got to be 100% local. That's why we don't even subscribe to a national news service. All of our news is generated locally. They go to the town meetings. They make local newscasts.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

So if you lose some of the support from the subsidy—you have kind of a niche market—is that going to make it difficult for you to operate in the profit margin?

9:55 a.m.

President, Pineridge Broadcasting

Don Conway

Absolutely. If I can't hire somebody right now, it's going to delay it down the road because I'm going to have to put what I would pay that new staffer over here to the tariff.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Thank you.

Mr. Skolnik, can you talk about piracy and how piracy has recently affected your clients?

9:55 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Musicians

Bill Skolnik

That's not in our brief because it's actually handled by the CCA brief, which has also been put in there. Of course, it's a concern. It's something we worry about, but we looked at different ways of dealing with it. We're grateful for the government putting in some of the aspects to try to contend with it. We don't think it's enough. We don't think necessarily that it's going to help. I defer to what's in the CCA declaration rather than my own.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Conway discussed the 30-day erase issue, which is going to cause them some labour issues, trying to hire somebody else to put in place or reassigning someone because of their short profit margin. Do you think this is an effective plank in this bill? They have to re-record things after 30 days. What's your opinion on that?

9:55 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Musicians

Bill Skolnik

I don't even think there should be a 30-day exemption. I think you should just pay. I support our artists, and I support getting them re-paid.

It's interesting to me, and I understand that this is an extra cost perhaps, but why us? We're the product. We provide the content. Why not go to the power company and say that we need a break on our rates because we've used so much?

I have no objection to subsidies. I just don't think they should come off the back of the artist. That's the last place it should come from.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

You expressed support for the moral rights clause in the bill. Do you want to expand on that?

9:55 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Musicians

Bill Skolnik

Sorry, I didn't hear you.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

The moral rights clause.

9:55 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Musicians

Bill Skolnik

Would you like to hear about that?

9:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault

As briefly as possible, please.

9:55 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Musicians

Bill Skolnik

The moral rights clause gives you the right to control where your product goes, where your performance goes. I think the most extreme example, and it's possible, but if it's not controlled, somebody could find their music underscoring a commercial for the Nazi party or a porno film. Nobody wants that, and that can happen. It's not the intention, but it needs to have more control. I'm giving you an extreme example, but that's an example.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault

Thank you very much, Mr. Skolnik, Mr. Conway, and Mr. Armstrong.

Now for the next five minutes of questioning, Monsieur Nantel.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you everyone for being here this morning.

My questions will be quick.

Mr. MacKay, we worked together in the mid-1990s for Sony Music Canada. At that time, two things happened. One was very bad for the music industry and for creators, and the other was very good for creators; one was Napster, and the other was neighbouring rights, which came out at that time, if memory serves.

I think Re:Sound deals specifically with neighbouring rights. It is important to remember that the radio industry in Canada is still protected compared to American radio, for example, when it comes to broadcasts. Broadcasters here have protection. I would like to know if other protected markets have similar rights in terms of paying for the public use of music. Is the cost of playing music on a radio station in Canada a bargain compared to the cost of playing music in other countries?

10 a.m.

President, Re:Sound Music Licensing Company

Ian MacKay

Yes. I think you could say it is a bargain.

If you look at other Rome Convention countries, all of whom have neighbouring rights, the rates there are not subject to subsidies or not subject to legislated reductions. That is something unique to Canada. Our overall rates on radio are lower than those of most other territories around the world.

10 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Thank you, Mr. MacKay.

I would also like to ask Mr. Conway a question.

Clearly, your radio stations broadcast music, but they are also involved in community activities. So your music bill cannot be huge. If you were broadcasting only music between ads, you would pick up a huge tab for music. But you don’t play that much music, so your music bill is not huge.

This bill reminds me a lot of what my mother used to say: it is robbing Peter to pay Paul. In order to make sure that it does not cost you anything and that the artists do not get royalties for mechanical copies, which are made on the radio, you are asked to waste your time by making backup copies every 30 days so that you don't have to pay.

You don’t like that procedure and I can't blame you. The artists would like to be paid. Your stations clearly do not play a huge amount of music, so would you be ready to pay a bit more for the music that they do play? I am not talking about mechanical copies, but the performance, meaning when the songs play on the radio. Would you be ready to pay more to not have to deal with the rest of this mess?

10 a.m.

President, Pineridge Broadcasting

Don Conway

If I understand the question correctly.... We are a music station. The three radio stations that we do own are music stations. When we talk about local, it's what we put in between the pieces of music that is local.

I'm not quite following where the questioning is going on....

10 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

I'll say it again.

You tell me that you play a lot of music, and that every time you speak you talk about snowstorms and local issues, which is great. I would probably listen to your radio station if I were in your market.

What I'm asking you is if you're so bothered about asking one of your employees to make backup copies every 29th day, would you agree to pay a little more when you play music to compensate for this? Which one would you choose? Since music is truly important in your programming, you don't want to spend that time. Are you willing to pay a little more when you play the music?

Mr. MacKay was telling us that we have fair rates and that they are actually lower than those for most international situations. Would you agree to pay more in order to pay less, let's say, for mechanical rights?

10 a.m.

President, Pineridge Broadcasting

Don Conway

First of all, thank you very much for asking the question in English. I appreciate that.

We pay all the copyright fees that are asked of us. What we don't particularly approve of is having to pay multiple times to keep copies. The purpose of the presentation I gave today to tell our story was to say that we're not keeping multiple copies. We download it. We play it. That's it. If you want to call them backup copies, you back up a server. I don't know if that's really a copy.

I'm not quite following how else we would pay more, because we're already paying all that is asked of us. All I'm saying is I just don't feel we should be paying multiple times when we're not making multiple copies. We're not a big organization. Maybe in Toronto, Montreal, Winnipeg, and Vancouver they have to make multiple copies of that to protect themselves. In our little station, it's one computer down to this computer. We don't play off any other things.