Evidence of meeting #5 for Bill C-11 (41st Parliament, 1st Session) in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Secretary, Board of Directors, Canadian Independent Music Association
—retail stores, Sam the Record Man going bankrupt.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
4:45 p.m.
Secretary, Board of Directors, Canadian Independent Music Association
It happens. You can't deny that it's happened. It's happened, it's reality, and this is what the cause was.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Andrew Cash NDP Davenport, ON
Listen, sir, I've been in the music industry for 25 years. I understand there have been some serious issues, and I want to underline respect for the struggles that are happening in the industry—
4:45 p.m.
NDP
4:45 p.m.
NDP
4:45 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault
Thank you, Mr. Cash.
Thank you, Mr. D'Eith.
Now moving forward, Mr. Calandra.
February 29th, 2012 / 4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON
Ms. Seline, are you supportive or against TPMs, technical protection measures?
4:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
I've listened to some discussions of TPMs and I've heard that they're extremely ineffective. There are many different kinds. I think it's irrelevant, quite frankly, as a discussion. I would really like to see the levies, quite frankly, because that's concrete.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON
Okay. So you'd like to see levies on pretty much whatever we have, like BlackBerrys. There are a lot of people using computers.
4:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
Yes.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON
What about if you remove TPMs and you remove levies? How do you think that would impact creators?
4:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
I think, effectively, for TPMs, some exist, some don't—
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON
I'm not asking about one; I'm asking about both. If there is no provision for either, how would that impact creators?
4:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
Well, then there would be no control and there would be no remuneration.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON
That's probably a bad thing.
How do you feel about Liberal members of Parliament—and thankfully, there are not a lot of them—telling their constituents that they can remove technical protection measures, they don't have to put levies to protect artists, and the creators would still create and there would be no change in the circumstances of any creators and it would not be a big problem--that they could do both without impacting your creators or the artists? How do you think the people you represent would feel about that?
4:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists Representation Copyright Collective Inc.
I think we'd beg to differ.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON
Okay, let me just move on.
Mr. Lawford, you seem to suggest that the day after this bill is passed everybody is going to be putting on digital locks. Of course in the bill it allows the Governor in Council to remove technical protection measures if that's deemed important. And I'm assuming you're aware of that part of the bill. But how do you anticipate that the creators would be protected? And why should a creator not have the ability to decide whether they want their work protected or not?
4:45 p.m.
Counsel, Canadian Consumer Initiative
They do have that ability. They have that ability right now to put a digital lock on if they wish. However, if I am making a copy for the purposes of time- or format-shifting or backing up, I'm using it in a private sphere and I've paid once to get it into my home or my private sphere. As far as we're concerned, that artist has been compensated, so there's no need to ask for further compensation. TPMs will allow further compensation requests and raise the price of digital goods and content for consumers.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON
You're suggesting, then, that the artist or the creator does not have the right to decide how they're compensated. In this instance, because you're suggesting that we don't have a levy, you're suggesting that the artist doesn't have the right to decide how they're compensated for their work, that only the consumer should have that right, and still the market wouldn't change?
I could be wrong on this, and maybe there are examples, but I don't know of a lot of music CDs that actually have locks on them right now. I don't know of any. I'm sure maybe one or two exist, but overall I don't know of many that actually have them. So why must we assume that as soon as this bill is passed, there are going to be technical protection measures over everything, and that the Governor in Council or the government would simply allow that to happen and allow consumers to be shafted in the way you're suggesting?
4:45 p.m.
Counsel, Canadian Consumer Initiative
Well, because the economic incentives are to create more and more levels, if you will, of compensation for what consumers want to use it for. So I can very well see locks going onto CDs that will not let you copy to an iPod unless you pay extra to do that.
Now, some business models will come about and consumers will be happy to pay for them, but—
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON
Sorry, I have to stop you, because I have only 30 seconds.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON
This is more of a comment from my friends in the music industry. Are you really suggesting that the loss of $22 million is going to collapse the Canadian music industry, that there will be no more artists creating music, and that this will be the end of Canadian music? That's what you seemed to be suggesting.