Evidence of meeting #3 for Bill C-18 (41st Parliament, 1st Session) in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was farmers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Allen Oberg  Chair, Canadian Wheat Board
Ian McCreary  Former Director and Farmer, Canadian Wheat Board
Kenneth A. Rosaasen  Professor, University of Saskatchewan
Stewart Wells  Director, District 3, Canadian Wheat Board
Henry Vos  Former Director, Canadian Wheat Board
Ron Bonnett  President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Jeff Nielsen  Former Director, Canadian Wheat Board
John Knubley  Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Greg Meredith  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

8:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Hoeppner.

November 2nd, 2011 / 8:35 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here with us this evening.

You were speaking about the advantage that an open market will have for western producers in terms of the price of wheat.

I want to go to another advantage. I represent thousands of farmers in the riding of Portage—Lisgar, a very strong agricultural-based riding where agriculture and value-added industry are incredibly important. We have Can-Oat. We have Bunge. We have processing of sunflower seeds. We have processing of pretty well every kind of grain—except wheat and durum, obviously.

I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit and just explain the following for the average non-farmer who is maybe sitting here or watching. How has the monopoly put shackles and chains on value-added industries being established and developed in western Canada, and how will taking those shackles off provide so many more jobs and opportunities for farmers? I ask because the bottom line, sir, as you know, is that they want to put money in their pockets and we're seeing them do that in every sector except wheat.

Could you please explain that?

8:35 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

We have seen with the growth of the canola industry, soy bean industry, and corn industry that Manitoba is rich with a diverse range of agricultural products. However, the biggest one I would point to in Manitoba was seeing facilities like Can-Oat pop up in Portage, following the removal of oats from the board in the late 1980s under my good friend, Charlie Mayer, and hire 120 to 130 people and process some half a million tonnes of oats a year. We have actually seen wheat, durum, and barley acres in Manitoba shrink to the point where they may contribute 10% of the Wheat Board pot, and we've seen a huge growth in oat acres and acres of other crops, because farmers can then turn to them and get cashflow from them.

Any farmer who is concerned about their marketing expertise has only to look at the other side of their farm where they do their marketing of their canola, or their livestock, for that matter—and we know they can do it. We should look at the growth of value-added investment and so on, as I outlined in my opening comments and others have talked about, going forward with the removal of the single desk. We certainly have other examples of how the removal of oats has done a tremendous job for Manitoba. We look forward to more of those types of situations happening.

8:35 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

I just want to follow up. Are there examples? In my riding of Portage—Lisgar there was a small group of farmers who wanted to open a pasta plant and were not able to because of the restrictions. They moved literally 10 minutes away to North Dakota. But we've been told by other witnesses that really doesn't account for a lot, that there really isn't a lot of opportunity for western farmers to do that.

Can you tell me if there have been other instances where we have lost business to the States because of the monopoly?

8:35 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

The same situation has happened across the whole Wheat Board area, as we've seen.

The Wheat Board has this idea that any processing has to be done at the point of sale, not at the origin of the commodity. Canola crushing has put the lie to that. Can-Oat has put the lie to that. Everybody else does it so that the transportation becomes part of the finished cost. It certainly makes a huge difference to farmers' bottom lines. The most any of us pay on our farms for input expenses is transportation. I know the board crows a lot about the great deals they've done with CN and CP. Rightly or wrongly, I'm still paying way more in transportation than I should, because I'm not allowed to value add.

When I put durum in a bin, which I have to do under the Wheat Board system now, I notify the board that I want to make pasta out of it at my own facility, if I have one, and I have to do a buyback from them. I pay freight and elevation charges to port, even if it hasn't left my bin. Then I go back to them, and they might be paying me eight dollars. I'll use round numbers. At the same time, they'll come back and say they want me to pay twelve dollars, when it hasn't left my bin yet. They'll ask for 12 dollars for that 5,000 bushels of durum, and then you pay the freight and elevation to port—they'll set that number—and then you can finally do what you want with your own durum.

It's no wonder people have torn out their hair and thrown up their hands and have built across the line in North Dakota. That's where our durum is going. All those jobs are sliding south. Most of Canada's durum ends up in Italy via the pasta trade of American brokers. We don't even sell it directly, which is ridiculous.

That is going to change.

8:40 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you. Do I have a little more time?

8:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

You have a minute, Ms. Hoeppner.

8:40 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

No other government has been as supportive of the Canadian north as this government, and I'm very fond of Churchill. I went there with my Manitoba caucus a year and a half ago.

We're very proud to have the Port of Churchill in our province. Can you speak a little to the unprecedented support that we have given, unlike any other government, to the community of Churchill?

8:40 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

We recognize the value of that northern port. It's a deepwater port. It certainly fits in with our northern strategy. As the mining sector develops, there is going to be diversification of usage for that.

I've seen media coverage of Mike Spence, the mayor of Churchill, who has talked about the tremendous potential of Churchill. We agree with him. That's why, in this piece of legislation, we are coming forward with $5 million per year over the next five years for a $25-million pot in total that will provide incentives for other commodities, not just the Wheat Board commodities. Last year there were two boats loaded with pulses that moved out through Churchill.

So we know the opportunity is there. They have some concerns, and there are some criticisms of the rail line. It needs some work. Certainly, there is a lot of work to be done to make it a world-class facility, but the beginnings are there. The stabilization is there. We want to make sure that we have the incentives in place. As I have said, we've gone beyond the Wheat Board crops to provide incentives for others to take a look at that and make sure they have the ability to move those commodities up and to make use of Churchill for certain aspects.

A couple of years ago, we allocated $38 million in one of our budgets, $14 million of which went to the airport—which is now open and shiny new—and the rest to the port. We haven't spent a lot of that yet; we're waiting to see exactly what they're going to do with it. We'll extend those deadlines. We'll make sure they will have the ability to build more capacity, if that is what it's going to take, to make them a pull port rather than a push port, and to make use of that rail in the winter. We'll certainly work with them every step of the way. We have continued that incentive to make sure they still have the ability to draw grain up through there.

8:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Thank you, Minister.

Your time has expired, Ms. Hoeppner.

We're moving to Mr. Valeriote, please, for five minutes.

8:40 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Thank you, Minister, for appearing before the committee.

Your position is no surprise to the Liberal Party, but I'm going to ask you specifically about the following. You said in Minnedosa in March that there wouldn't be any attempt to impose dual marketing on the Canadian Wheat Board unless a majority of producers voted for it. You told them that in what was described as a campaign-style speech. You know the quote from the Manitoba Co-operator: “Until farmers make that change, I’m not prepared to work arbitrarily”, said Ritz. “They are absolutely right to believe in democracy. I do, too.”

Now having said that, you were elected. Everyone knows that you regard 39% of the vote to be adequate for you to bring about these changes. We know your answer. You've said it many times.

Yet there are the pleas of farmers, in begging for the stability the Wheat Board offers, and in begging for the clout that the Wheat Board offers over railways, producer cars, and large grain companies. They have asked time and time again and pleaded with you. We've petitioned you in Parliament to hold your own plebiscite, if you don't believe in theirs and figured that it's just an expensive survey. Those pleas have been ignored.

Having said that, I'll take you to the legislation. My questions to you, Minister, are specific, and I'm asking you to be specific in your answers, with a yes or no. Your answers in question period are that you have faith in farmers.

8:40 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Absolutely. We all do.

8:40 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

And yet in clause 12 of the legislation, you won't allow farmers to elect themselves as directors. And then later on in clause 42, when they're supposed to transition into a private board, a private corporation, you refer to the three specific pieces of legislation through which they would make that application—and quite rightly—but then you say, unusually, because any other farmer who'd like to incorporate certainly doesn't need your permission, “Oh, by the way, first you're going to have to send me your application and I need to approve it before I'll let you apply”.

So on the one hand, you propose that you have all of this faith in farmers, and then on the other hand, you take control of that corporation away from them. I find that quite contradictory.

So my questions are these. First, yes or no, will you let farmers elect themselves to a voluntary wheat board so that this the board can be by farmers for farmers? Second, yes or no, will you allow the removal of that clause requiring the approval of the farmers' applications through your department, so that farmers can be like any other Canadian and have the freedom to go and make their own application for incorporation under legislation they choose?

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Mr. Minister.

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

I agree with you Mr. Valeriote on faith in farmers. I still can't get my head around the fact that you have more faith in Ontario farmers, in allowing them—

8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

I'd like a yes or a no answer, Minister.

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

No, no, no, it's my turn.

8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Yes, yes, yes, this is my time. I asked you for a yes or no answer.

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gerry Ritz Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Okay, let's try again.

You have faith in Ontario farmers to market their own commodities. I have faith in western Canadian farmers to be able to do the same thing.

8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Excuse me, Mr. Chair, a point of order.

I've asked him a specific question—

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

You're doing a point of order on your own time?

8:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Yes. You directed this committee to focus its questioning on technical issues about the legislation, and I'm doing that.

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Okay.

8:45 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

I'm asking for a yes or no answer. I don't want him to be evasive. I expect him to answer the questions, yes or no, on whether he will allow farmers to elect or not elect the directors, and whether he will allow them to choose their own legislation through which they'll incorporate, without his permission.

I don't need a sermon by him—