Evidence of meeting #47 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbc.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Judith Flynn  Chair, Manitoba Arts Council
Douglas Riske  Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council
Dave McLeod  Executive Director, Native Communications Incorporated
Sharon Bajer  President, ACTRA (Manitoba)
Claude Dorge  Secretary, ACTRA (Manitoba)
Rob Macklin  Branch Representative, ACTRA (Manitoba)
Rea Kavanagh  Vice-President, ACTRA (Manitoba)

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Good morning.

What a lovely day here in Winnipeg. I'm glad other people have had problems finding the right place. You just made my day. I'm forever having problems finding the right place.

We are very pleased to be here in Winnipeg this morning for meeting number 47 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), this is a full investigation of the role of a public broadcaster in the 21st century.

This morning we welcome Judith Flynn and Douglas Riske from the Manitoba Arts Council.

Judith.

9:15 a.m.

Judith Flynn Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Thank you very much for inviting us to make this presentation. We're more than pleased to be able to do so. As you know, we have a strong stake in culture, and we hope the CBC does too.

The CBC is one of our most important national institutions, not only presenting Canadian culture, which I'll get back to in a minute, but on the radio, at least, providing a national forum. In many ways, Canada as a nation is an unnatural construct. With the bulk of its population spread out in a thin band along the U.S. border, the natural movement of people and goods is north and south. Our national institutions were designed to link east and west--the railways, the Trans-Canada Highway, and of course the CBC.

In its early days the CBC was an important showcase for Canadian talent, one of the few that existed. Some of you, probably not many--nobody here is as old as me--might remember the stage series that was on Sunday nights. It was a wonderful show that showcased talent like John Drainie, Tommy Tweed, and others whose names I can't remember. The thing is, they were our stars. Their voices were recognized from Halifax to Vancouver. To a considerable extent, CBC radio continues in that tradition, and through its local, regional, and national programs it has created an infrastructure that lets different parts of the nation tell their stories to each other. This is part of the important education of our children and our citizens. It's through the sharing of our stories that community identities are clarified and confirmed.

Who can forget, for instance, Morningside and the late Peter Gzowski, shows like Cross Country Checkup, Tapestry, Quirks and Quarks, and As It Happens? These are nation-builders, and I could name more.

CBC television, however, is another story. While it is to be commended for important presentations like Canada: A People's History, which is a wonderful series, and its coverage of the recent events at the Vimy Ridge monument, it's becoming more and more like American television every day. Quality shows like Da Vinci's Inquest, Intelligence, Opening Night, and This is Wonderland are cancelled and replaced with more and more American-style reality shows.

To attract the advertisers it needs to support its programming, CBC television tries to appeal to a mass audience. That audience, they know, is mainly attracted to American television, which seems to be getting cruder and more brutal day by day. Is that the kind of course we want the CBC to follow, an imitation American channel?

Like CBC radio and the BBC--and I will shock you--I think CBC television should be commercial free. Perhaps we can buy licences as they do in Britain. It would probably never fly. One thing cable television has shown us is that people will pay sometimes quite significant amounts in order to be able to watch television. A better way still would be the government giving CBC enough money to let it play the role that its founders intended.

The CBC also plays an important economic role, in that in many communities it is the crucial professional organization that validates and pays professional artists for their work, who, believe me, are not overpaid. This enables the artist to remain in and contribute to those communities as they work in any number of arts-related fields and industries. This is an industry that creates work. As an arts council we have gone through pages of statistics after statistics to show job creation and so on, and they're out there by the thousands if you want to look at them. Anyway, it returns far more than its fair share to the community.

The CBC in Winnipeg has presented many of our clients. The Manitoba Chamber Orchestra and the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra are obvious examples, as are the playwrights who've worked in radio drama in Winnipeg, and the actors, singers, and technicians. Along with the support provided to professional artists by the arts councils in various provinces and territories, the CBC work allows local artists to put down roots in the community and share their knowledge and commitment to excellence. The CBC also frequently provides especially promising young performers with their first national exposure.

We cannot underestimate the impact of the various documentaries that have emphasized the arts and culture of this country. Through these, many of us have come to value the arts and to understand the public value of the arts in our nation and in each community.

Just as an aside, when I was about 15 years old the CBC had a Saturday afternoon program on folk music. People went up into the Appalachians and recorded it. I found it fascinating, and I never missed a Saturday afternoon. I think you underestimate the capacity of youth to listen to the CBC, and what that can do. My mother had a grade 8 education. When we talked about books, I would be surprised at how much she knew about some Victorian writer. She told me that the CBC was her university.

We know that we can't go back to the good old days of when the CBC played a vital role in helping to keep the nation united and informed during the thirties and the war years. But we can share a vision of a new CBC, one that has at its heart a commitment to the arts and culture of the many regions, providing a national stage. We need a CBC that is committed to the sharing of this country through the exploration of its stories and dreams, sharing them with each other and the world. It is only through this that we will continue to grow--grow new ideas, new directions. It will be done not by copying and mimicking but by challenging ourselves as a confident and mature nation that values both its past and its future.

Thank you.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you very much for that.

We will turn to Ms. Keeper first.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Flynn, for your presentation.

I'd like to ask you a question based on one of the comments you made early in your presentation, that the TV portion of CBC is another story.

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

Unfortunately.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Many reports over the years--over the last 12 years, I'd say--have said that the CBC needs to serve the public interest, that their dramatic programming, and all of their programming in television, should be alternative to the private sector.

You talked a lot about that in terms of fulfilling what you believe should be a mandate for the CBC. Could you elaborate a little bit on what kind of specific recommendations you may have in terms of CBC television?

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

I'm recommending that you get rid of those reality shows. I know they're cheap, and often just imitations of American television. I don't think we should imitate American television, because I don't think that fulfills the CBC's mandate. A lot of the stuff that's shown on American television debases its audience.

So I would reject that completely.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

I guess the other piece of that would be funding. One of the studies presented by the CBC in terms of television has shown that the CBC is poorly funded compared with other public broadcasters around the world. In fact, compared with about 20 countries in the western world, it is in the bottom third.

You talked about a time when you felt the CBC was fulfilling its mandate.

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

That was radio, and it still is.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

In terms of radio and its programming, what do you think it provides Canadians that television does not?

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

As I said, I think it provides them with a national forum. If you listen to Cross Country Checkup on a Sunday afternoon, people are phoning in from all over the country. The same thing happened with Peter Gzowski; people from different parts of the country talked to each other, and I think that's extremely important. There's even a program that helps some of us monolinguists learn something about French, which is certainly a good thing to do.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

You are with the Manitoba Arts Council, as you have expressed. I have a background as an artist as well, and in terms of the economic spin-offs, you talked about that and the opportunity for CBC as a public broadcaster to serve the artists in the country.

Could you elaborate a little bit more on that?

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

I'm not sure what you mean, Tina.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Do you see the CBC as an opportunity for artists in the country, a forum for them as well?

9:25 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

Definitely for Canadian actors, like the ones who were employed in This is Wonderland, which I just loved and you cancelled.

9:25 a.m.

Douglas Riske Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council

Perhaps I could speak to that.

My background too is in the theatre and the arts. I have moved over to what they call the dark side now in terms of being a funder and working for a provincial agency; however, in my 30 years in the regions I really relied on the CBC as the kind of foundation that I think Judith referred to.

But more than anecdotally, it is crucial to that synergy and the kind of ecology that you have across the country in terms of nurturing writers, directors, and actors, telling again stories of those regions and sharing them. We've lost a lot of that synergy because of the changes in CBC television, where the focus has become.... Yes, there still are some works done across the country, but the focus remains now on Toronto and to some extent Vancouver, although not even Vancouver has much anymore.

I can only again relate that there was a time in Calgary, as we were growing as a community, when the CBC was absolutely crucial, through its radio drama and then through its television productions based in Edmonton and to some extent in Calgary, to help create an enormous blossoming of the arts, believe it or not, in Alberta. They are blossoming, to a great extent, and they've come a long way in the last 30 years to 40 years. I think the vision now is on how to build on that and not let it go. What is the best of the past in terms of this synergy that exists between a public broadcaster and not-for-profit arts organizations, as well as--and I think we must not forget this--the cultural industries? Much of our cultural industry that has been developed in the regions in film and television has relied upon those who have been trained and brought through a CBC system. The kind of quality work that we now see, which is highly regarded by American film companies, has come about because they were trained in Canada and worked on fine-quality productions in Canada. How do we find that next formula, or the next mix of events and opportunities, so that the CBC can actually be a catalyst, if not a facilitator, if not a leader, in terms of the kind of work we expect?

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Tina Keeper Liberal Churchill, MB

Thank you very much.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you.

Ms. Bourgeois.

9:30 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

I just wanted to see who you were, as I have no sense of the direction of sound. So that's you there? Okay.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Good morning madam, good morning sir.

Since I am a francophone and originate from Quebec, I attribute a great deal of importance to the cultural and economic aspects of this study.

Earlier, Ms. Flynn, you mentioned that there were some important cultural matters at stake and that CBC television was increasingly copying American television. Moreover, you say in your brief that Canadian viewers are fascinated primarily by American television which seems to be becoming increasingly vulgar and brutal.

I'm going to ask you a rather particular question. Is the CBC, and are our Canadian artists and producers, in touch with the tastes, needs and wishes of the viewing audience? Can the situation rather be explained by the fact that Canadian viewers have no other choice than to subscribe to American cable television?

9:30 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

Douglas, you could answer that.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Would you like me to repeat my question?

9:30 a.m.

Executive Director, Manitoba Arts Council

Douglas Riske

It's a very serious question.

Let's say this. In the not-for-profit arts, we have run into this through arts education falling off the table, and to some extent one could say that young people's experience of the arts through CBC television has been lost. A generation or two may have been lost to American television, or maybe more. But in terms of reintroducing that experience for young people in Canada, that could be in fact a very important factor in rebuilding Canadian interest in its own stories--not CSI Calgary, but new stories about the past. I think even the extraordinary docudrama that was just done over the last two days on Vimy Ridge was an extraordinary mix of cultures and young people mixing with the past and experiencing the past in a way that I don't think we've seen on any American series, ever. It was a truly original Canadian experience.

I think those are the kinds of things that will connect again with our youth. We have to rebuild their connection to Canada, and maybe it has to start in the schools, with young people's work, as well as with the CBC producing young people's work, that is relevant to children in Canada.

9:35 a.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Madam, sir, you're facing quite a challenge. Your Canadian culture is at stake. It is becoming Americanized. You say that cable television has taught us one thing, and that is that viewers are sometimes ready to pay quite a bit to see the programs of their choice.

Since the cable broadcasting invasion can be deregulated, I don't think that Canadians will have a choice. I wonder how you and the Canadian artistic community react in the face of this invasion of Canadian culture.

9:35 a.m.

Chair, Manitoba Arts Council

Judith Flynn

One thing the CBC can do is to employ more Canadians. I don't think we can do much about the swamping of television by Americans. You are so lucky in Quebec that you don't have to do that. But if we could employ the artist, I think that would be one step in the direction against the American television.

Incidentally, a lot of Americans listen to Canadian radio because it has something to say.