Canadian Heritage Committee on April 11th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Order, please.

I make apology right off the bat for us being a little late. This morning our witnesses were a little late. Now the committee is a little late this afternoon.

Thank you very much for taking the time out of your day to come to speak to us.

We have Mr. Paquin and Mr. Boucher here from the Les productions Rivard.

Whoever would like to go first, please feel free.

[Louis Paquin, Executive Producer, Les productions Rivard]

I want to thank the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage for giving us the opportunity to provide you with our comments on the CBC's mandate. It is not often that you come to Winnipeg, and I want to welcome you. I will stick to my written text, so that my ideas will be clearer and more direct and my speech will be shorter.

I am co-owner of Productions Rivard, an independent film and television company. Our business was set up in order to ensure a greater presence of western French speaking communities within the Canadian film industry. We already have approximately a hundred productions. They are in various areas, documentary, variety, drama and education. Since it was established, the number of the company's employees has risen to 30 and that of contractual people is now over a hundred on a regular basis.

The firm, Les Productions Rivard plays a leadership role in the Franco-Manitoban cultural industry. We provide work and opportunities to authors, producers and other content generators. We cooperate with the other members of the cultural industry. We borrow our actors from theatre companies and we enlist the aid of some writers, composers and singers. We provide work to hundreds of craftsmen.

Such has been the role of CBC during the 1970-1980 decade. During that wonderful period, local television produced soap operas, variety programs, documentaries, public affairs and youth programs. Then its role changed and it finally almost disappeared in view of the budget cuts and the growing complexity of the telecommunications sector. Budget cuts and the decisions that followed had a disastrous effect on our community with regard to our capacity of telling our stories and contributing to the national dialogue.

It is essential that the committee be aware of the impact of government's cuts on the ability of the CBC to discharge its mandate and on the communities which rely on the CBC to reflect Canada's diversity. “No TV, no country” wrote Geoff Pevere, the famous historian of Canadian motion pictures and long time programmer of the Toronto International Film Festival. Television has this unique ability to allow Canadian to share their experiences. With regard to the creation of an identity and a national conscience within a country as large and diversified as ours, television has been a determining factor.

The comment made by Geoff Pevere could probably apply to artistic production in general. It remains that television has carved for itself an enviable place. It has the ability to channel the expression in all the arts and all the communities, whatever their size. It helps develop ties between all Canadians and to bring them closer to their roots while providing them with food for thought and grounds for discussion, pride and hope.

I will now speak about the role of the CBC.

Television defines the values that we wish to leave to our children and grandchildren. Let us also mention how this industry plays a leading role when major Canadian cultural policies are being developed. If CBC has a role it is to give a voice, a face and a mirror to the Canadian cultural and social texture. As opposed to other broadcasters, the mandate of CBC is not first and foremost commercial. Our public broadcaster cannot play this role alone, especially when it is located at the core of a metropolis which has to fight for its creative territory.

The House of Commons must continue at all costs to support the national mandate of the corporation. If CBC must factor in business interests and audience rating, it cannot do so at the expense of its rationale. The government must ensure long term financing to CBC so that it can achieve national results. It is imperative that the government recognize the exceptional dynamics of the link between itself, the corporation and the general public. In the Canadian context, this deep connection promotes a productive dialogue. But all of course must be able to participate.

The fact that CBC has gradually withdrawn from local production has had quite a few negative effects. I am certain that you have heard a long list of complaints during these hearings. But this withdrawal has also had some positive results.

Independent production came out during the last decade and it went a long way to expand the horizons of Canadians. These production companies developed in Quebec but also in several parts of the country. Les Productions Rivard is soon to celebrate its 12^th anniversary.

My concerns however are greater than those of a producer. Here, in Winnipeg, we are committed to build the capacity of a community with regard to TV production. We are also a training school. A program shown at 7:30 on Monday night is the tip of the iceberg. It is the result of a creative approach requiring professional ability. It is the reflection of creative people, but also of a society really alive. Independent production outside Quebec today represents a condition sine qua non to the fulfilment of CBC's national mandate but independent production cannot do anything without a broadcaster. The broadcaster must have the resources necessary to fulfill its ambitions.

In that sense, the decisions of our government and of our public television, which seems to marginalize the regions, are contrary to the national mandate. They also represent a refusal to recognize the place of the official language communities.

Let's talk about television in Quebec.

The success of the Quebec industry remains, for Les Productions Rivard, a model and a source of inspiration. That industry has set itself apart by offering to its public diversified and high quality programs in his own image. Nowhere in the world can we find such osmosis between television and viewers, between creators, performers and their public.

The Quebec industry has a particularly good track record in drama series. The public also had the good fortune to see the expansion of documentary and variety programs making it possible to discover new realities and new talents. As far as children's programs are concerned, the public discovered programs especially created to appeal, entertain and teach.

Worth noting is a fact which is of particular interest to us as producers: Quebec creators and artists found in public television an extraordinary challenge. Quebec writers, comedians, musicians and film-makers regularly work for television. The small screen gave them new opportunities to express themselves and a second to none window on the world. The success of television in Quebec is the result of our corporation's commitment.

The state of television in Quebec reveals the potential of our public television in minority setting. In spite of criticisms, we recognize the impact, the vision and the contribution of our corporation in Canada. Alone CBC has set quality standards in the communication industry and the cultural industry generally. Which has been accomplished in Quebec can now be extended to other French speaking communities of the country and we need the CBC to do so.

As the saying goes, the devil is in the details. For us, it is important to boost the corporation on two fronts: first as a tool of broadcasting where there is room for local regional and national broadcasting. Second as an agency aware of its structuring role when it comes to developing a regional contains from the regions.

In spite of the concerns one may have regarding the imposition of quotas and quite specific guidelines, I think it is important to look at the details. The mandate, as established by the government, leaves too much room for interpretation. I would recommend that more specific directions be introduced regarding CBC's commitment to broadcast over the entire Canadian territory. Furthermore, the federal government should remind the CRTC of its duty which is to require CBC to broadcast over all the territories in the basic services provided by cable operators.

Les Productions Rivard recommend to the federal government to add to the contribution agreement to CBC a provision aiming at increasing the broadcast of contents emanating from all French speaking areas. And that these contents not be limited to newsreels but that they should also includes variety and documentary programming as well as fiction films, magazines and youth programs. Such framework would make it possible to reflect the conditions and the needs of official language minorities and to incorporate francophone Canadians within the large francophone industry which should be that of Quebec and the regions all together. Such framework would also allowed the CBC to discharge its national obligations with its audience.

Telefilm Canada, the Canadian Television Fund and other funding sources have made adjustments in recent years to integrate community-based projects into the television landscape. It's fundamentally important that the SRC follow their lead and incorporate into its action plans strategies that focus positively on the regions.

By looking to independent regional production companies, not only is the SRC meeting its goals in terms of quality and diversity, it is also achieving savings in that investing in public television enables producers such as ourselves to secure funding from other sources and to maximize the impact of the initial funding received.

In spite of the efforts on the part of a number of managers, federal budget cuts and SRC priorities have combined to minimize the presence and capabilities of the regions. The effect of this has been to marginalize communities and to create the impression that they are incapable of contributing to the creative and production processes. The history and successes of the regions have been ignored, thereby compromising artistic expression and weakening regional infrastructures.

Community reliance on the personal convictions of the SRC's internal champions must change. Relations with Montreal must be strengthened through the introduction of clear policies and goals to be attained in the short and long term. The champions will always be there, but they must have the support of the organization at all costs. Dependence and the resulting internal and external tensions would be eliminated if a contribution agreement clearly identifying the hoped-for results in the area of regional production was put in place. The regions' role cannot remain forever open to negotiations. Public television must structure its resources in a way that is in keeping with its mandate.

The most positive outcome of the concerted efforts made in recent years is without question the decision in 2004 to dedicate 10% of the Canadian Television Fund's francophone envelope to French-language production in minority regions. This has led to the acquisition of other important and essential tools and sends out a signal that the Canadian Television Fund is committed to production in Canada's francophone regions. As such, Les Productions Rivard would like to present three recommendations:

That the government affirm its commitment to public television and invest adequately in the SRC so that it can carry out its mandate;

That, given the government's expectations with regard to regional production, a reasonable portion of SRC funds be allocated to independent production activities and be invested in production outside Quebec for broadcasting on local, regional and/or national channels;

That the public broadcaster be bound by its mandate to broadcast various programming genres -- news, documentaries, dramas, variety and youth programs -- with francophone content originating from francophone communities outside Quebec.

These recommendations represent concrete options for resolving problems that francophone minority communities have been dealing with for several decades. Canada's francophones have built their schools, their health services and their cultural, communication and economic development institutions. They exercise their right to speak their language and express their unique cultural diversity.

The audiovisual production sector is another sector that needs to be harnessed in order to support and consolidate these assets. Its position remains fragile in light of the small numbers and the isolation from major production centres. Measurable, stable and ongoing political and institutional support is a definite condition for achieving success.

Before I wrap up, I would like to give you an example of how the SRC could fulfil its obligations toward the regions. Recently, a cooperative venture proved to be very successful.

Les Productions Rivard, in conjunction with the SRC, produced a major series to showcase the Festival du Voyageur 2007. Entitled Pour un soir seulement, the series showcased the talents of various artists from different fields and often, artists with different styles. This series, which was comprised of 18 half -hour programs, gave the studio and viewing audience an opportunity to discover new talented performers and to witness artists performing together for the very first time. The series reflected the diversity of performers from across the country and their connection with one another. The SRC helped to bring together in Winnipeg in the middle of February over 117 performers to tape 18 programs. Efforts of this nature must continue.

Artists from Quebec and from elsewhere were able to witness firsthand the energy of the francophone community and to see just how much Manitoba's francophone community values culture. We proved our ability to welcome artists from other regions and to produce a series for the national network, all the while contributing to the development of our community. Regional production resulted in an important program for the SRC and, according to many artists, this would not have been possible anywhere else but in Manitoba.

Producing a series of this nature was made possible because of the SRC's mandate. You should not lose sight during your deliberations of the fact that this mandate provides a window to the future and inspires producers as well as consumers to explore all facets of our collective heritage.

You can always review this mandate and clarify procedures, but for heaven's sake, do not take away from us public television, because it belongs to all of us. At times, it may seem distant and unfocused, but its mere presence gives us hope.

Members of the committee, can you help us?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Monsieur Boucher.

[Daniel Boucher, President and Executive Director, Société franco-manitobaine]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's never easy to speak after an expert, but I will do my level best.

Members of the committee, on behalf of the Société franco-manitobaine, or SFM, I want to thank you for this opportunity to present our position on the mandate, role and impact of the SRC on our community.

Let me begin by recalling the mandate of our organization. The SFM, the official voice of Manitoba's francophone community, has a mandate to ensure the growth and development of this community and to demand full rights for it. Together with its partners, the SFM plans, facilitates and promotes the overall development of the francophone community.

The SRC plays a critically important role in ours and in all communities from coast to coast. No one can argue that the SRC has had a direct role in the development of our community for a number of years now. The SRC has long been in many respects the sole vehicle for francophone media for many of our communities.

Today in Manitoba, we have an opportunity to access other media that serve our communities in special ways. However, there is no question that the SRC has earned a special place for itself as a communicator and partner in our community's development.

CKSB, the SRC's radio station in Manitoba, has been broadcasting over the airwaves for over 60 years. It offers us a window on our community, our country and our world. This station is a reflection of most of the activities in which our community is engaged. It broadcasts quality programs produced right here in Manitoba, programs that strengthen our identity and our community. With its morning, noon and afternoon programming CBC Radio Canada focusses on the issues and priorities that matter to our community.

CBC Radio Canada must have the resources it needs to continue offering quality programming to our community. We would like to see more air time set aside for local programming. We would also like most decisions involving local programming to be made at the regional level, bearing in mind the specific nature of our community. The recent decision to relocate reporters with CBC radio in Saint-Boniface to the studio on Portage Avenue has raised some concerns within the community. Is this the beginning of the end for the historic facility in Saint-Boniface? Too often, decisions to streamline operations for profitability's sake are made far away from the regions and a corporate philosophy which puts a priority on dollars and cents fails to take into account that often, investing in the regions is less cost-effective. While a local production may be more costly an endeavour, its impact in terms of training and community visibility cannot be measured in dollars and cents. We are neglecting to take into account the adverse effects of cutbacks at the regional and local levels where in our opinion, facilities are already understaffed.

SRC television also plays a key role in the community. Television is a partner in community development, whether it be Téléjournal Manitoba, which provides a daily glimpse into the community or local productions that showcase our communities. RDI provides a window on the rest of Canada and showcases the talent, dynamic energy and contribution of Manitoba's francophone community to the rest of Canada.

The SRC's local team works diligently to present an accurate picture of community life. However, we worry that the SRC does not always adequately carry out its mandate as a public broadcaster from coast to coast. While we recognize the importance of the Quebec and Montreal markets, we want a corporation that is a truly national broadcaster, one that gives all Canadians an opportunity to enjoy francophone content that reflects the collective experiences of all of Canada's francophones.

The SRC has a very unique role to play in our communities and in the vast world of broadcasting. It is vitally, indeed crucially, important that the SRC be a truly Canadian entity designed for Canadians by Canadians. Content must be truly pan-Canadian, produced by members of local and regional communities. Despite some similarities, the voice of a francophone from Western Canada is different from that of a francophone from Quebec, New Brunswick or Newfoundland. We all have a unique message to convey, even if we do share the same language and culture.

Since the cutbacks in the 1990s, we have observed changes at the local level in SRC productions. These cuts immediately resulted in a sharp drop in local productions and cultural programs. Opportunities for developing local programs now appear limited. It is critically important that this trend be reversed and that the number of hours of local programming be increased. We have independent production houses that are more than capable of filling the void left by past cuts. The SRC must champion local and independent products and act as a pan-Canadian partner and broadcaster.

The SRC team in Manitoba has made great strides because it advocates a partnership approach. It is also very important that our productions be shown on a regular basis across the country, in addition to RDI programming. We don't deny that many more products do and will continue to originate in Quebec. The quality of Quebec productions is impressive. However, we are seeking to have a greater voice within SRC's production sphere to ensure that the reality of francophones nationwide is better reflected. Productions originating outside Quebec would complement Quebec content very nicely.

Manitoba boasts a very rich history. Its community has the ability to contribute to the SRC's efforts. Whether at the production, artistic or news programming level, we have developed solid teams and quality products worthy of being exported across the country. We have a history to share with others and we need the SRC's support to relate that history to Canada and to the world. Nevertheless, we are eager to discover and learn new things, and we benefit from programming produced by francophone communities outside Quebec. The SRC can act as a bridge for communicating with other communities across the country. It is important for us to ensure that our voice is heard by all media components of our Crown corporation.

Although RDI provides quality programming, a number of francophones living outside the Winnipeg city limits are unable to tune in because they do not have cable service. We realize that this is not the SRC's responsibility, but rather the responsibility of cable companies. However, we do regret the fact that when RDI hit the airwaves, the SRC did not request that the service be mandatory from coast to coast.

At the same time, the federal government has a responsibility to ensure that all Canadians have equal access to the same quality service, regardless of where they live in Canada. A two-tiered or multi-tiered system must be avoided.

The point that we are trying to make here is that it is important for the SRC to work with communities to ascertain their needs, concerns and views on a Crown corporation that is part of our day-to-day lives, and that contributes tremendously to the development of our community. At the local level, we often work with SRC managers to improve programming and to make it more accessible to the community as a whole.The SRC must remain on the cutting edge of technology to ensure that Manitobans have access to quality programming for their viewing pleasure from anywhere in the province.

Canadian values are non negotiable and we hope that the SRC and the Government of Canada will be mindful of the importance of preserving and especially, of strengthening the SRC in our regions. The corporation must be a reflection of the dynamic spirit and contributions of the entire population of Canada.

To our minds, Canada is a bilingual nation from coast to coast. Given the number of francophones living outside Quebec and the growing number of immersion program graduates, it is important that SRC programming be available from coast to coast. The federally funded corporation has a very clear, direct mandate relating to fundamental Canadian values. It should be remembered that one of these values is that Canada has two official languages. This must transcend financial considerations. This value must be part of the federal government's message and be reflected in its actions. Indeed, the federal government has a duty to support our Crown corporation by giving it the resources it needs to lend a voice to official language communities across Canada.

Finally, the SFM believes that the SRC has a clear mandate to reflect Canadian values. The SRC must develop in an innovative way while respecting competition from the private sector. It must emphasize its partnerships with community stakeholders in order to enrich programming content and expand its broadcasting range. Armed with these guidelines, the SRC will be strong enough to withstand North American influences and to continue to carve out a place for itself in Canada and around the world.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much for that.

Ms. Keeper.

[Tina Keeper, Liberal, Churchill, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to hand over my time to Mr. Simard.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I would also like to thank our invited guests. It's always a pleasure to be here in Winnipeg. Committee members believes it is important to travel to different locations.

My first question is directed to Mr. Paquin.

As I see it, last year's lockout was an opportunity for all of us to gauge the importance of the SRC. In Western Canada, service in French came to a halt. I for one have no doubts that the SRC is critically important. I think we need to discuss the corporation's role.

You stated that in some respects, the SRC's role was to hold the fabric of Canada together. You also stated that the corporation's mandate was not necessarily the same as that of private broadcasters.

In your opinion, is the SRC moving too far in one direction? In other words, does it feel that it should be competing with private broadcasters?

[Louis Paquin]

As I see it, SRC officials see the debate between private and public television as a double-edged sword. People inside the organization very much appreciate the fact that everything doesn't hinge on audience shares and advertising sales. However, they worry that if audience shares and commercial success is suddenly set aside one day, the public might wonder why billions are being invested if no one is watching SRC programming.

I can appreciate the formidable challenges that they are facing. The SRC has a national mandate and receives government support. I'm concerned on two levels. I believe this committee is very important in that it provides directives and a mandate to the SRC. SRC program content must be a reflection of the entire country. The regions must be supported to this end. Otherwise, the whole situation is like a double-edged sword for us.

SRC officials can save money by centralizing operations in Montreal. Fifteen or so years ago, the SRC took a step back and communities lost their production capability.For the past five or six years, I've been hearing that the regions are not able to provide network content because they lack the proper infrastructures. The fact is that these infrastructures were taken away from us.

The SRC needs to be given a clear mandate to ensure programming content originating in the regions. That must come from us, in order to put an end to internal bickering over operations in Montreal and regional operations. The SRC must devise some strategies so that within the next twenty years, the regions produce programming content. In order to achieve this end, the corporation must cooperate with independent producers.

As I mentioned, the Canadian Television Fund and all other financial institutions modified their rules to ensure that a program originating in Saskatchewan, Alberta or Manitoba receive the same funding as a venture originating in Montreal, whether or not it is broadcast locally or on the full network.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

I'd like to respond.

You both alluded to the adverse effects of cutbacks. Mention should also be made of the SRC's lack of sensitivity toward the regions. When he testified before the Official Languages Committee, Mr. Sylvain Lafrance mentioned wanting to make some very positive changes. I believe that these changes are happening. However, either Mr. Lafrance or another witness pointed out Quebeckers may not be interested in regional productions. The majority of francophones live in Quebec and yet, a recent program on the voyageurs attracted a significant audience share in Quebec.

Is it possible to produce programming here in Manitoba that might interest Quebeckers?

[Louis Paquin]

We produced a series entitled Destination Nor'Ouest, not for the SRC, but for TVA. An audience of one million tuned in each week. The program recounted a voyage by canoe between Montreal and Winnipeg. I maintain that we need to produce programming locally, nationally and regionally. We can develop programs that specifically target the Montreal audience, but these do not have a great deal of value added. If a program is produced entirely in Montreal, the broadcaster will wonder why the program must be ordered from Winnipeg. We need to develop programs for local audiences. From time to time, these programs can be aired on the network. For example, we produced a program on Henri Bergeron, a SRC announcer who is from Manitoba. We also produce programs for young people. We are capable of producing a range of interesting programs that could be aired on the full network.

I don't want to belabour this point. Sylvain Lafrance and René Fontaine are very attuned to our situation. That's why I believe policies must be formulated. The problem becomes apparent when you take a closer look at the SRC. Let me give you a concrete example.

I was speaking with a corporation employee who informed me that so far this year, she had worked on two projects with regional offices. She told me that she had been a SRC employee for 33 years and I was rather surprised to hear her say that she was just now finding out that the regions provided program content. The situation leads me to believe that a policy must be put in place to allow all corporations employees, and not just management, to forge closer ties with the regions. I mentioned champions. However, what's going to happen when they leave? Therein lies the problem.

We're counting on you to formulate policies of this nature, somewhat like the Canadian Television Fund did with the support of Heritage Canada. CTF officials decided to allocate 10% of all funds to productions originating from outside Quebec. I don't necessarily want to specify quotas, but I do think the funding proportion should be clear.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Separating programming produced in Quebec from regionally produced programs, setting directions, having your own budget and people who are more attuned to the regions: are these options that you are considering?

[Louis Paquin]

Not exactly. I think we need to win the battle, that is get closer to Quebeckers. They have a great deal to offer. Quite simply, it needs to be made clear that the regions are part of the corporation. In terms of a budget, perhaps you need to be more specific.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good day, sirs. I'm delighted to finally meet francophone producers from Manitoba.

What do you estimate to be the size of Manitoba's francophone population?

[Daniel Boucher]

There are approximately 47,000 francophones in Manitoba and 10% claim to be bilingual. Therefore, Manitoba is home to about 110,000 people who speak both official languages.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Boucher, unless I'm mistaken, you stated that the SRC was facing some major financial challenges. You didn't say so in so many words, but you implied that this was the case.

Would you not also agree that the SRC has some major responsibilities by virtue of its mandate, namely to produce quality programs in both official languages and perhaps even to enter into partnerships with independent producers?

[Daniel Boucher]

I do feel that the CBC/SRC has a vital and broad role to play in many areas. This large corporation is involved in many ventures. We believe that it is critically important to forge these partnerships. After the cutbacks of the 1990s, we've not managed to get back what we lost.

However, we have managed to right the ship, thanks especially to independent local productions and to other measures as well. We have quietly expanded our local programming. There is still much to do and the regions have a great deal of potential when it comes to producing programming likely to be of interest to a Canada-wide audience. As such, we think the SRC deserves more support in order to continue carrying out the task at hand.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

You said two things that are extremely important. I'd like you to search back in time.

When you talk about the 1990s, to which year in particular are you referring? To 1990 or to 1994? We looked at the CBC/SRC's mandate during this time period. What particular year were you thinking about?

[Louis Paquin]

As far as production is concerned, during the 1970s and up until 1984 or 1985, many different types of programs were produced. The community was pumped up like never before. Daniel Lavoie was a product of this era. A certain kind of energy was in the air and professionals wanted to work in the culture and communications fields.

After 1984-1985, cuts were made and several minor programs were produced in Western Canada. With the advent of the Canadian Television Fund, tax credits and independent production in 1995, we arrived on the scene and once again began producing programs. However, our partners weren't the SRC, but rather TFO, TVA, Astral and others. They were so far removed from local production that even local management had given up on the idea. Any thoughts of getting into local production had been set aside because this had been in some respects the exclusive domain of the SRC for many years. Even independent producers were wondering what I was up to, because they had more or less abandoned the field of production.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

So then, if I understand correctly, Franco-Manitobans can take the credit for the dynamic nature of francophone programs in Manitoba. Is that correct?

[Louis Paquin]

They didn't accomplish this on their own. Policy changes occurred with the Canadian Television Fund after the federal government stepped in to ensure that the fund was attuned to the situation, that Telefilm...

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

The involvement was minimal, Mr. Paquin. You said that this represented approximately 10% of the total amount ...

[Louis Paquin]

Yes, but that's an enormous amount.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

In your opinion.