Evidence of meeting #63 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Moss  President, Alliance for Children and Television
Madeleine Lévesque  Director, Alliance for Children and Television
Jennifer Dorner  National Director, Independent Media Arts Alliance
Kirwan Cox  Member, English Language Arts Network
Ian Ferrier  Member, English Language Arts Network
Yanick Létourneau  Executive Committee, Quebec Chapter, Documentary Organisation of Canada
John Christou  Vice-Chair, Documentary Organisation of Canada

7:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the 63rd meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are undertaking a full investigation of the role of a public broadcaster in the 21st century.

This evening we welcome the Alliance for Children and Television, the Independent Media Arts Alliance, the English Language Arts Network, and the Documentary Organisation of Canada.

Welcome, folks. We'll go in order for the presentations. If we could keep our presentations relatively close to ten minutes or so, that would be great, but we haven't got a timer on it. We're interested in hearing what you have to say.

Mr. Moss, would you'd like to go first, please?

7:35 p.m.

Peter Moss President, Alliance for Children and Television

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

My name is Peter Moss. I'm president of the Alliance for Children and Television. Before we begin our presentation this evening, I would like to introduce my colleague, Madeleine Lévesque, executive vice-president for content development at Nine Story Entertainment in Toronto, and a board member of the alliance.

The mandate of the Alliance for Children and Television is to positively affect Canadian children's lives by using advocacy, recognition, and training to enrich the screen-based media they experience. In our view, the content of children's programming should be both relevant and entertaining, stimulating the intellect and the imagination, and fostering openness towards others. It should also be an accurate reflection of the world in which children grow up, respecting their dignity and promoting learning.

The alliance represents a group of individuals and organizations from across the country that are highly committed to ensuring the development of television programming that will be of interest to our children and our youth, and that will contribute to our cultural development as a country. Set up over 30 years ago, in 1974, the alliance benefits from the expertise of Canada's best creators, artists, craftspeople, educators, producers, and broadcasters of children's programming, which is available on an increasing number of media platforms.

Personally, I've been involved in the broadcasting and entertainment business for well over 25 years. I've held the positions of creative director of children's programming at CBC Television, vice-president of programming and production for YTV and Treehouse TV--both children's channels in Canada--and more recently vice-president of programming and development for all the Corus television channels. I'm currently an independent producer of children's programs and other programs.

We're very pleased to be here today to take part in what we hope will be a new beginning for the CBC-SRC. We strongly believe in our national public broadcasting system, and particularly in our national public broadcaster. Ultimately, the main reason we are here today is to present to the committee the very important needs and views of Canada's children, a perspective that is often overlooked when we're talking about Canada's broadcasting system, its goals and its responsibilities.

As the committee is no doubt aware, the CBC-SRC will have to go before the CRTC some time this year to renew its licence, which is due to expire in August of 2007. We believe your committee has a unique opportunity in drafting your report to propose strong recommendations to both the government and the CRTC as to what should and could be the goals and objectives of the CBC-SRC for the coming decade.

At the outset, the alliance wishes to affirm its full support for a strong CBC-SRC as we move forward into the 21st century, especially as it concerns the needs of young Canadians looking for quality programming that is developed and broadcast with them in mind.

We believe the CBC and SRC have a mandate of public service that makes them distinct, in that their programming should be in the public interest and not in the commercial interest. CBC-SRC has a unique role to play in reflecting the increasing ethnocultural diversity of our country's citizenship and providing access to Canadian stories that will contribute to the building of a unique Canadian society. Many of Canada's children are a reflection of this new ethnocultural reality, and we believe that CBC-SRC has a responsibility to help them grasp on to innovative programming, showing our distinctiveness and our values, which includes the celebration of the rich diversity of our country.

7:40 p.m.

Madeleine Lévesque Director, Alliance for Children and Television

As the committee knows, the key to broadcasting is content, and this applies just as much to children's programming as it does to news, sports, entertainment or drama. But the facts are clear: the proliferation of technology and information is not just completely changing the way Canadians access the information they are seeking, it is also greatly increasing the amount of information that is available. This allows for more mobility and individual choice, but for television, particularly for conventional broadcasters including the CBC/SRC, it means a significantly increased fragmentation of audiences.

Notwithstanding this reality, based on the latest CRTC data available, the average number of weekly hours of television viewing by Canadians has continued to increase since the 2001-2002 broadcast year, moving from 23.7 hours to 25.1 hours in 2004-2005. Most interesting is the fact that the largest increase in television viewing between 2001-2002 and 2004-2005 is children between 2 and 11 years old, going from 16.3 to 19.2 hours a week, and teens from 12 to 17 years old, going from 16.4 to 18.6 hours a week. This latest data from the CRTC clearly shows that, although young Canadians do spend more time chatting on their computers, they are nonetheless still watching television, apparently even more than before.

Canada's Broadcasting Act clearly states that:(i) the programming provided by the Canadian broadcasting system should (i) be varied and comprehensive, providing a balance of information, enlightenment and entertainment for men, women and children of all ages, interests and tastes.

But what do we think of the role of the CBC/SRC in this climate of technological change in program delivery and the increased fragmentation of audiences? As mentioned previously, we do not question the need for a strong CBC/SRC, but it is important for us all to consider what the CBC/SRC must do to maintain its relevance in the 21st century.

7:40 p.m.

President, Alliance for Children and Television

Peter Moss

In the past, the CBC-SRC has been at the forefront in the creation and production of children's programs that have, among other things, won a number of national and international awards. CBC-SRC used to be a creative incubator for new Canadian talent in this area; however, in recent years CBC-SRC seems to have lost some of its enthusiasm for creating and developing children's and youth programming.

CRTC was quite clear in what it expected from the CBC-SRC when it said, in the last licence renewal, that

A wide variety of children's programs is available to English-speaking Canadians on commercial, educational, specialty and pay television services. Notwithstanding this availability, because the CBC reaches almost all Canadians, it has a unique responsibility to provide informative, educational and entertaining programming directed toward Canadian children and youth, and to foster the development of the artists who represent the future of the television industry.

We strongly believe that CBC-SRC has a responsibility to invest in developing programs for young Canadians, in addition to seeking out ways of reaching our children and youth through new technological innovations. With such investment, the CBC will not only train a new generation of Canadian talent, but it will also develop the loyalty of new audiences in the future.

The extensive study entitled “The Case for Children's Programming”, in which the alliance participated last year with the CFTPA, the National Film Board, and the Shaw Rocket Fund, which was released in February 2007, clearly demonstrates a downward curve of funding within the Canadian broadcasting system for the production of Canadian television programming for children, moving from a high of $380 million in 1999-2000 to $283 million in 2005-2006. This was a drop of more than 25% in a very short period of time.

During the same period, the share of total production budgets for children's programming, when compared to total Canadian television programming budgets, went from 22% of the total to 16% of the total. In addition to this, from 1998-1999 to 2005-2006, the average budget for a 30-minute program for young Canadians fell 11%, from $224,000 to $200,000 in constant dollars.

We believe that CBC-SRC should be doing more and spending more on children two to eleven years, and on youth eleven to seventeen years, on original programming that recognizes the important role television can play in forming the attitudes of young Canadians who are increasingly coming from different parts of the world to contribute to Canadian society.

We strongly recommend that the committee send a clear message to CBC-SRC about the leadership role it should be taking in developing and broadcasting high-quality programming that will not only be of interest to our youth but also challenge their intelligence and inform them on subject matters that will contribute to their development as proud Canadians.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, the Alliance for Children and Television has the expertise, the ability, and the will to contribute effectively to the Canadian broadcasting system, and particularly in this case to work with our national public broadcaster, the CBC-SRC, to develop new initiatives that will ultimately benefit our children across the country.

Let there be no doubt in our position: The CBC should be called upon to be doing more for children's programming and providing our children with interesting and challenging content that will contribute to their intellectual, social, and cultural development.

This completes our oral presentation. We look forward to responding to any questions you may have.

Thank you.

7:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you for that.

Now we will move on to Ms. Dorner.

7:45 p.m.

Jennifer Dorner National Director, Independent Media Arts Alliance

Good evening.

I'd like to start by thanking the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage for this opportunity to present on behalf of our members and the diverse communities we represent.

The Independent Media Arts Alliance is a national network of 84 non-profit independent film, video, and new media production, distribution, and presentation organizations representing over 12,000 artists and cultural workers across Canada. The IMAA is now 25 years old, and since the beginning has worked to improve the means and access for independent media artists at every stage, from funding to production, distribution, and exhibition.

First and foremost, I would like to underline the important role the CBC has as the primary cultural broadcasting institution for Canadian arts and culture. The CBC is an important place for the production and presentation of independent media artworks, in addition to being a primary source for the diffusion and promotion of our events and reporting on our activities. The CBC is key to audience and market development for the independent media arts sector.

I'm going to jump ahead here and talk a little bit about the Canada Council for the Arts, because a lot of our members rely on Canada Council funding to survive.

The Canada Council for the Arts receives approximately $150 million annually from the federal government that is then invested into artists and organizations that create and disseminate cutting-edge artworks that endeavour to reach a broad Canadian audience. It stands to reason that the federal government should invest in the promotion and diffusion of these works through our national public broadcaster.

Television programs such as Zed, and Socket, which aired last summer on CBC radio, featured young Canadian artmakers, and plugged listeners in to current cultural and aesthetic issues. Not only were these programs instrumental in building new audiences for our sector, they were interesting and, I found, really fun shows. Unfortunately these programs are no longer running.

The trend of cutting arts programming when the CBC faces funding challenges is short-sighted. We urge the federal government to acknowledge the long-term benefits of supporting programs that feature independent media arts by providing increased stable funding to the CBC.

We also feel that the CBC is not able to fulfill its cultural mandate with consistency within each region and within each artistic discipline. It is felt that the majority of arts programs focus on larger commercial productions. In some regions, the programming does reflect the media arts sector while in other regions it's next to impossible to get any reporting on our events. It is felt that the CBC would be far more successful at reaching its mandate if it were not so dependent on commercial revenue.

In certain regions, the CBC has been very proactive in getting involved with indigenous and diverse communities through training and development, sponsorships, joint programs, and the CBC website. For example, in Manitoba, CBC participates quite extensively in the first nations community. We would love to see that sort of initiative happening across Canada.

The CBC can go a long way towards promoting emerging artists, artists from diverse cultural backgrounds, and indigenous artists. The mandate of the CBC states that it sets out to “actively contribute to the flow and exchange of cultural expression” and to “reflect the multicultural and multiracial nature of Canada”. Increased funding would enable the CBC to address the specific needs of the indigenous communities across Canada. We feel strongly that the indigenous community should be consulted in that process.

In response to the inquiry about new media and its impact on public broadcasting, we feel there's tremendous potential in this area. The growth in media arts is rapid. More and more artists are working with new media. This is due to the popularity of media art as a form of audiovisual expression in today's culture.

Canada’s youth are exposed to and become familiar with the Internet, video, television, and other technologies long before most other forms of visual communication or artistic production. As a result, many young artists are moving to the media arts as their form of creative expression.

In addition, to access programming, more and more Canadians are turning to new platforms and new formats, such as the Internet, cellphones, and PDAs. This impacts how CBC is able to carry out its mandate. This new communications environment has different boundaries than those regulating the radio and television sector and enforced by the CRTC.

As a free marketplace environment, satellite, Internet, and mobile broadcasting have enabled private broadcasters to infiltrate these new platforms for which the increase in demand and range of options dominates over quality in programming. Given this, there's the risk that CBC's ability to fulfil its mandate is challenged by a move into a less-regulated new-media paradigm.

It will be the vital role of the federal government to fund these new media initiatives to ensure Canadian cultural content has a strong presence within these new formats.

A more diversified and broad-reaching set of technologies will also benefit Canadians. New communication networks should be viewed as tools that could help to bridge communities--for example, the indigenous communities in the north and the more southern populated regions of Canada.

New formats are presenting the potential for CBC to advance and further its mandate. The CBC will be able to target audiences on a regional, cultural, ethnic, or linguistic basis while building a national consciousness and identity that reflects our diverse society.

Some CBC programs maintain podcasts that must continue to be developed and available online. These initiatives not only reach new audiences within Canada, they bring Canadian content to the world.

Canada is one of the most technologically sophisticated countries, and we are in a position to be at the forefront of the digital media revolution, which would benefit Canadians. It also benefits artists, making possible many new economic models for production and marketing.

This being said, we would like to point out that there should be a mechanism in place to ensure that Canadian artists are being paid for the work that they show, no matter what format it's presented in.

In addition, it will be important to ensure that no matter which platforms are used, the content is available across Canada and most importantly to Canadians of all socio-economic backgrounds.

One of the strengths of CBC radio and television has been its ability to reach Canadians in all regions via the airwaves. The federal government should investigate ways to ensure means of and access to new media for all Canadians.

To conclude, federal funding permits the public broadcaster to present programming that is an alternative to that of the homogenized corporate broadcasters. A soundly funded public broadcaster provides our democratic system with a balance of perspective that must be reflected in the information that is publicly disseminated.

Thank you. I would be happy to answer any questions.

7:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you for that.

Now we go to the English Language Arts Network. Mr. Cox, would you be the spokesperson, please?

7:50 p.m.

Kirwan Cox Member, English Language Arts Network

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank this committee for coming to Montreal. I know it's a big operation to leave Ottawa. It certainly makes it a lot easier, I think, for all of us here to be able to meet with you, so it's appreciated.

I'd like to introduce our delegation from ELAN. Ian Ferrier is a writer representative on the board of directors. I'm a film and television representative. Guy Rodgers is our executive director, and Anna Fuerstenberg is a theatre representative.

ELAN is the English Language Arts Network of Quebec, and it has reached a milestone this month. We now have a thousand members.

You may say, “A thousand members of English-language artists in Quebec? Impossible.” You may wonder who these artists are. You've seen or heard of our work, if not recognized our names.

We are musicians such as Oscar Peterson, Kate and Anna McGarrigle, Oliver Jones, Arcade Fire, Rufus Wainwright, and Susie Arioli--the current chair of ELAN--and her band.

We are writers of plays, crime novels, and poetry such as David Fennario, Louise Penny, MacArthur prize-winner Anne Carson, Leonard Cohen, and Mavis Gallant.

We are dancers such as Margie Gillis, Vincent Warren, and Lin Snelling, a former chair of ELAN.

We are painters and video artists such as Betty Goodwin, Ghitta Caiserman-Roth, Nelson Henricks, and Ingrid Bachmann.

We are actors such as Clare Coulter, Christopher Plummer, Walter Massey, and Jack Langedijk.

Of course, we also work in film and television. We are producers such as Arnie Gelbart and Kevin Tierney, whose film Bon Cop, Bad Cop broke box office records in Canada.

We are directors such as Brian McKenna, Colin Low, and John N. Smith, who is best known for coming back to Montreal after directing the hit Hollywood movie Dangerous Minds, with Michelle Pfeiffer.

Of course, some people, from Norma Shearer to William Shatner to Donald Sutherland, never came back. Producer Jake Eberts keeps a cottage in the Eastern Townships and donates to McGill, so he is here in spirit.

I took the time to list all these names so that you know who we are--a vibrant official-language minority that has an impact across Canada and around the world. We only wish that many of us didn't have to leave Quebec to make a living doing what we love to do and can do so well when given the opportunity. As I read in The Globe and Mail this morning, “Most people work to make a living, but artists make a living in order to work.” I thought that was an appropriate comment.

Exactly 75 years ago, public broadcasting began in a room like this, before another parliamentary committee. A young Graham Spry spoke five words that clarified the issues and galvanized those parliamentarians. He said that Canada faced a simple choice in broadcasting, “the state or the States”.

Today let me say, as loudly and clearly as possible, that we support public broadcasting. We support it unequivocally and passionately, as creators and as viewers and listeners. As Canadians, we need public broadcasting because it connects us to every corner of our country and to ourselves. It provides a diversity of viewpoints and programs that we cannot get on commercial TV or radio. We hope that someday, CBC television will become a public broadcaster just as CBC radio is.

Right now, chronically underfunded for decades by short-sighted Liberal and Conservative governments, the CBC has been driven to maximize commercial revenue. The more commercial revenue the CBC must make, the more it compromises its public service mandate and the goals of the Broadcasting Act.

The CBC simply does not have the funding to fulfill its mandate under the act. I think Parliament--the government of the day--has to look in the mirror when it wonders what can be done.

Yet it is not possible to look at the CBC in the 21st century in isolation. We must look at it as part of the broadcasting system. The English Canadian broadcasting system is a mess.

Three years ago I did a study called Through the Looking Glass: A Comparison of broadcast licence fees in Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States. I discovered that Canadian broadcasters receive the lowest per capita TV advertising revenue among the countries studied. Why? Probably because of spillover advertising from the United States. In turn, among those countries studied, English Canadian broadcasters pay the lowest licence fees as a percentage of budget. Why? Because the public subsidies designed to support independent Canadian production have ended up indirectly subsidizing the broadcasters. They can afford to reduce the licence fees they pay for Canadian content and still meet their CRTC obligations. I suggest the CRTC as well should be looking in the mirror.

What do they do with the money saved by paying low--world-record low--licence fees? Here the private broadcasters differ from the CBC. The private broadcasters use the money saved in underpaying for domestic programming by overpaying for American programming at auction in Los Angeles. That's driving up the cost of these programs to a record $688 million last year, which was 12% higher than the year before.

In the end, English Canadian commercial broadcasters pay more for foreign programming than they pay for domestic programming, unlike any other broadcasters in the developed world. We are a record-setter in that regard.

When private broadcasters spend two-thirds of a billion dollars—and I did say billion—in program money in Los Angeles instead of Canada, the independent Canadian producer and the creative community here must absorb the cost. The situation has been getting worse over the years for Canadian producers. The average independent English Canadian program budget has fallen by 41% in constant dollars from 1984 to 2001.

As we can see, there is money in the commercial TV system to improve the quality and quantity of Canadian programming, but it needs to stay in Canada. We need private broadcasters to spend more on Canadian programs than they spend on foreign programs.

Generally speaking, the CBC does not compete with private broadcasters as long as it follows a domestic programming strategy while they follow a foreign programming strategy. Our private broadcasters in fact have even given up the freedom to program their own prime time schedules to benefit from simulcasting American network programs.

We need a public broadcaster that is not driven by commercial objectives of the private broadcasters but is publicly funded. That means significant and dependable increases in parliamentary appropriations, not more advertising.

Here in Quebec, CBC radio is especially needed by the arts community to hear news about what is happening in our disciplines. We need radio production in Montreal that uses our talent and that speaks to anglophones throughout the province.

With the abdication of cultural programming on CBC television, CBC radio is our lifeline. It does more than any other broadcaster, but erosion of funding has cut its quality. CBC radio needs more public funding, not advertising, as the Association of Canadian Advertisers has requested before this committee.

We need more TV program expenditures by the CBC and more decision-making here. We need better communication with the CBC. We need to see the CBC's executives on a regular basis so that relationships can be developed. Unlike you, they leave Toronto not very frequently.

We would like an advisory committee between the CBC and the production community that can grow up and manage a national terms of trade agreement with independent producers.

We would also like the Canadian Independent Film and Video Fund budget increased. That is the one production fund that is not controlled by broadcasters and therefore spends money in the regions on the smaller producers. Dollar for dollar, it is the most important source of production funding in English Quebec.

Should increasing the CBC budget be a parliamentary priority? Yes--at least more so than increasing the military budget--because in the 21st century, we need to redefine our idea of national sovereignty. The 49th parallel is a media border, a cultural border, not just a geographical line. We can only defend our country and the minds of our people with TV and radio programming that helps us see ourselves and our country, not someone else's. We want to work, and we want to see our work on our screens, big and small, without having to go to Hollywood to be paid with our own dollars to create someone else's vision.

That's the end of what I have to say. I'd like now to pass the microphone to Ian Ferrier, a writer representative from ELAN. He'll talk about radio.

8 p.m.

Ian Ferrier Member, English Language Arts Network

Thank you, Kirwan.

Thanks to the committee.

My name is Ian Ferrier, and until last year I was president of the Quebec Writers' Federation, which represents English-language writers in Quebec. I also serve on the executive for the English Language Arts Network.

I'd like to interject just for a minute on behalf of CBC radio. It is the medium that has had the most effect on the careers of the poets and the writers and performers I know, in paying them for work to be presented on the air, in promoting the work of the English-language literary community to our minority here in Quebec, and in presenting Quebec English literature to the rest of Canada.

When I go to the Eastern Townships south of here, or into the Gaspésie, CBC radio is the voice and core of the English-language community in Quebec. In places where the numbers of English speakers are low and the culture is threatened, everyone listens, and CBC is how they define what the English community is.

In Montreal, CBC radio is the voice of Quebec English literature, because, with very few exceptions, the commercial stations just don't carry literature. If my writing colleagues and I have any celebrity in this province, it is because of CBC radio. They invite us on the air, talk about our books, present our work to the English audience in Quebec and to the larger Canadian audience, who avidly listen to shows like WireTap and who find out from Canada Reads that Montreal's Heather O'Neill has written one of the hottest books of the season.

It is the station that shows that it pays to be literate, and by doing so it promotes literacy as no other broadcaster does. CBC sponsors contests for writers and presents prizes to writers. They were at the Blue Metropolis literary festival and the Festival Voix d'Amériques and Spoken Word Festival. I can say without exaggerating that without CBC radio, much of Quebec English-language culture would be unavailable, even to the community in which it is created.

In Quebec, the core mandate of CBC radio has been to present the best of English-language culture to the minority English-language community, and to show that community all of the smaller communities of which it is composed. From this core, the mandate extends into giving English speakers more insight into the French majority who surround us and who are among us, and, as more and more regional programming goes national, into showing the range and excitement of Quebec English culture to the rest of the country.

The fact that funding has not increased for CBC radio is an effective cut for each year that this policy remains in place. It means that each year there are fewer producers, fewer shows, more reruns, and less work being heard by Canadians for Canadians. For radio in particular, this is critical, as it is right on the verge of becoming instead of an ephemeral medium an archival medium. Each week the CBC receives calls asking “How do I find copies of WireTap or Ideas” or “ How can I hear that music special that was on Roots Montreal last week?”

The CBC's mandate--and the key to CBC's future--is to be in a position to present content to its listeners when they want it, how they want it, and where they want it. In the future, the key portal for CBC to fulfil this mandate will probably shift to the Internet. This means that the show a producer worked on for months won't disappear after a broadcast or two. In an ideal world, it will be available to any CBC listener who wants to hear it. In the process, an authoritative archive of our culture will be created, which people can download and listen to any time they like.

All of this costs money. I think the best thing you could do would be to fund the CBC such that it is not effectively cut each year, so that it can take on this challenge and extend its range into this new world where the excellent work it does will have continuing relevance to anyone in the world who has access to the Internet.

Thank you.

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you for that.

Now we go to our last presenters, from the Documentary Organisation of Canada, Mr. Létourneau.

8:05 p.m.

Yanick Létourneau Executive Committee, Quebec Chapter, Documentary Organisation of Canada

Good evening, members of the committee. We would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to present our views. My name is Yanick Létourneau and I am Chair of the Executive Committee of DOC Québec, the Quebec Chapter of the Documentary Organization of Canada.

Documentary Organisation of Canada.

The Documentary Organization of Canada is a national, bilingual, non-profit, professional organization that represents more than 650 independent documentary filmmakers across Canada. The members range from individual filmmakers to owners of companies that employ more than 50 people.

Our presentation contains six points. I would like to make it clear that our remarks apply equally to Radio-Canada and to the CBC, unless otherwise indicated.

8:05 p.m.

John Christou Vice-Chair, Documentary Organisation of Canada

I'm the vice-chair of DOC Quebec, and actually the chair of the lobby committee for the national board of DOC as well.

The types of documentaries we're talking about here today are point-of-view documentaries. That is the majority of the types of films our members make. These films present a strong point of view of the filmmaker or someone appearing in the film. They're not journalism. They're not always balanced films, but they're always creative. They're driven by passions. They're often entertaining, and they're usually provocative. They play in festivals around the world, on television screens, and when we're lucky they get into theatres, which is somewhere they need to be more often.

Canadian POV documentaries present a vision of Canada, not only to Canadians but to the whole world. They give voice to a unique Canadian perspective, to important urgent social issues, such as war, politics, the environment, human rights, and more. There is a tremendous hunger that is growing for these types of films. As an example, Hot Docs has just had a 33% increase in its audience this past April.

Some examples of these types of documentaries areThe Corporation, Roger Toupin, Shake Hands with the Devil, Manufactured Landscapes, and the recent Quebec hit and Jutra winner, À force de rêves . I can go on and on. The list is long.

These films shape our national identity and they export our unique Canadian perspective to the world. They are films that can't be made by in-house production by Canadian broadcasters, whether they're public or private. These types of films can only be made by the independent production community.

8:10 p.m.

Executive Committee, Quebec Chapter, Documentary Organisation of Canada

Yanick Létourneau

These documentaries cannot continue to be made without a strong and stable national public broadcaster. A public broadcaster has neither the same mandate nor the same objectives as a private company, since it must work in the public interest. It cannot be subject to the dictates of ratings, nor must it seek to please advertisers. A strong public broadcaster takes risks and invests in projects that are first and foremost in the public interest.

Documentary filmmakers want their films to be seen, and they do get seen. The examples John mentioned earlier have all been successes in theatres, at festivals and on television, in Canada and elsewhere. By chasing ratings to attract advertisers rather than working in the public interest for Canadian viewers, the CBC/SRC distorts its mandate and its programming. The frantic race for the biggest audience cheapens programming and forces our national broadcaster towards content that caters to the lowest common denominator, as in the private sector: reality shows, singing contests, game shows and the like. Programs like that are low-risk and cheap to make.

Auteur documentaries and POV documentaries are hard to make and can be risky, both financially and politically. But when they are supported and broadcast properly, the odds of their success increase tremendously.We feel that these kinds of documentaries are the most successful in helping to fulfil the CBC/SRC mandate, which we understand to be as follows: the CBC/SRC should be distinctly Canadian, should provide a means of cultural expression, should contribute to our national consciousness and should reflect the multicultural and multiracial nature of Canada in both official languages.

Yet in the past few years, our organization, DOC, has seen an alarming decline in documentary programming on public television, particularly in English on the CBC. Documentary programming has declined from 263 hours in 2002-2003 to 122 hours in 2005-2006. One by one, documentary series have been cut from the main network, for example The Passionate Eye, Life and Times and Witness, while others have been reduced. CBC cut Opening Night, the only documentary series for the arts. And while the documentary An Inconvenient Truth was breaking box office records in 2006, the highly popular show The Nature of Things was downgraded to a limited summer series, with no official word about its return.

Its independent producers have been waiting for 18 months to hear how many new programs will be commissioned for the current season. How is this possible when the environment is at the top of everyone's agenda, and David Suzuki has been identified as the most popular man in Canada?

8:10 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Documentary Organisation of Canada

John Christou

The third point we want to make is that the CBC should not be driven by ratings. Due to consistent and endemic underfunding, the CBC is now forced to rely on advertising revenue to operate, and by extension the current management team has been forced to chase ratings in an effort to increase advertising revenue. By chasing ratings, the CBC is now forced to act like a private broadcaster, which we feel hampers its ability to fulfill its mandate according to the Broadcasting Act, and therefore lessens the public benefit of the CBC.

The ideal solution to this problem is increased stable long-term funding. This is our preferred solution. If the CBC's funding is not increased or cannot be increased in this manner, we propose that the opposition between its reliance on ad revenue and its public benefit mandate be understood and recognized so that safeguards can be built into the CBC's mandate, which would not allow for it to be chasing ratings. We would like language in its mandate that basically downplays the importance of advertising dollars, and that says that the size of the audience should not be what drives programming decisions. If eyeballs were the driving force of the CBC, then it should basically just program Hollywood movies every night--as it does every summer--which are consistently the highest-rated shows on the CBC at this point. But we don't want to see our public tax dollars going down to Hollywood either, as our colleagues of ELAN were saying. That's not really the role of a public broadcaster.

Taking these facts into consideration, we feel that there's a danger in the coming months and years ahead that we could fall into this trap of confusing the public institution with its transitory management and the overall importance of public broadcasting. DOC is concerned that with all of the CBC's difficulties, if the institution of public broadcasting is shut down, it will never be started up again. That would be an enormous loss to the country, and to the film and television production industry. We feel that excluding ratings from the CBC mandate would help safeguard against any future management teams falling into the same trap the current management has fallen into.

8:15 p.m.

Executive Committee, Quebec Chapter, Documentary Organisation of Canada

Yanick Létourneau

Canada's independent documentary industry is a creative success story. Canada has long been known and recognized for the quality of its documentaries. They are among the world's best, most relevant and most compelling. Our documentaries are world travellers and our best ambassadors overseas. Thanks to them, the world sees a vision of Canada, and our unique point of view on international issues.

We feel that in-house production services at either public or private broadcasters cannot make films like those previously mentioned. All those films are the work of a single voice, a creator, an author with his own point of view. This voice is not subject to market forces, nor to political influence, a particular concern in an organization that is affiliated to the government.

These documentaries are developed for the most part by small and medium-sized independent production companies, thereby ensuring the diversity of points of view and approaches that marks the richness and variety of Canadian documentary filmmaking.

We recommend that the number of hours and amount of money spent at CBC and SRC on in-house documentary programming be substantially reduced, and that the figures be publicly disclosed.

8:15 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Documentary Organisation of Canada

John Christou

The last recommendation we'd like to make is that Canadians have mandatory BDU carriage of CBC and CBC Newsworld and of the sales approved of The Documentary Channel, as well as a reasonable subscriber fee for each channel. The educational networks should also be granted the same status. It should be required that the majority of the extra funds raised by this mandatory carriage be invested in Canadian programming. If this is not implemented, there is a danger that when deregulation hits the industry, the viewership and resources, particularly for CBC Newsworld, would take a major hit, leading to a significant loss of commissioning dollars and subsequently of commissioned Canadian films.

In summation, I want to say that we feel that CBC should return to its mandate: news, documentary, arts, and only the strongest Canadian drama. I also want to reiterate our support for a strong CBC, a strong public broadcaster. At its best, the CBC can define what it means to be Canadian, and it can be our country's ambassador to the world. We sincerely hope that short-term problems at our public broadcaster don't cloud its national and international importance. Canadians need the CBC, and so does the Canadian documentary production industry.

Thank you very much on behalf of DOC Quebec for the opportunity to present.

We welcome your questions.

8:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

I would like to thank everyone for their presentations.

Now we'll go to Mr. Scarpaleggia for questioning.

8:15 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry I missed the first portion, which I believe was the presentation by the Alliance for Children and Television. The CBC seems to have a niche there. Its children's programming or schedule is just great. It's high-quality and kids seem to love it. Is it true that it has a niche?

For example, if you turn the TV on in the morning for your kids you go to PBS or CBC or Radio-Canada or Télé-Québec. You sort of gravitate toward these channels. Does the evidence bear out this idea that there's pretty good listenership or viewership at those times for kids' programs?

8:20 p.m.

President, Alliance for Children and Television

Peter Moss

No, not at all. In fact, you're in a minority if you choose CBC or PBS, particularly PBS. Treehouse TV is the most popular pre-school channel in Canada. YTV, Teletoon, and Family Channel far and away surpass the CBC in terms of ratings and viewership, in terms of quality, in terms of variety, in terms of the kinds of programming that are there.

Where the CBC is lacking is in providing exactly what you say they should be providing, which is kind of our point: that the leadership of the industry used to be in the purview of the CBC; they used to provide the creative drive, they used to provide the leadership that said this is the standard everyone must achieve or strive to achieve. The opposite has happened, and they have allowed children's programming to slip back in priority and back in resource allocation as well.

8:20 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

What do they need to do to bring the standard back up--more in-house production?

8:20 p.m.

President, Alliance for Children and Television

Peter Moss

I don't think it's a question of more. We're not talking about more in terms of hours; we're talking about more in terms of attention. You have two broadcasters in the children's sector sitting here, in terms of Teletoon and formerly YTV and Treehouse TV. You can tell when a broadcaster--

8:20 p.m.

Director, Alliance for Children and Television

8:20 p.m.

President, Alliance for Children and Television

Peter Moss

Formerly, yes--ex-broadcasters, recovering broadcasters.

You can tell when a broadcaster puts heat behind a project or heat behind an initiative. What's required from the CBC is to take on the mantle of saying we will provide this leadership for the industry, something that hasn't happened in a long time. What that looks like is to say we'll commission new shows widely; we'll set an agenda that speaks specifically for the kind of programming we want to see--and we can talk about that at another time, or now if you like---and that makes sure the schedule is refreshed regularly and that the schedule is open and accessible to all forms of the population we have, from one side of the country to the other, and that we use the opportunity as the CBC. We have the opportunity to talk to the children of Canada with one voice at one time, and at the moment we're not saying anything. We're not choosing to say anything.

8:20 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

It would seem to me it would be a good strategy on the CBC's part to invest the effort or money, if necessary, in this type of programming, because I would think if a kid gets used to watching CBC as a four- or five- or six-year-old, they tend to feel a connection to the broadcaster later on in life.

My other point is I have a sense that everyone here today shares your vision of the CBC. I think all of us do. What I'm struggling with is the need for.... I don't want to call it a compromise, because that's pejorative, but in reality, how do we...? You've come to us with kind of a purist's point of view, and it sounds like you're saying CBC has to be all about great ideas and the ideas that you produce, which I'm sure are very good ideas. You're saying we need more money to produce our ideas for the CBC and for Canada, and that's great, because we need quality programming. But at some point, especially when you have these perpetual minority governments, unless stable and increased funding for the CBC is entrenched in the Constitution, parliamentarians have to decide what the appropriation is going to be. If Canadians are not watching any more, for whatever reason, then they have trouble justifying those decisions.

At one point I was very much in favour of getting rid of commercials on CBC television, and then I started to think that the people from the advertising council made a good point: that a little bit of advertising is kind of like a barometer to see how relevant the programming is to the public. I mean, if people aren't watching, you're not going to get any advertising.

So how do we maintain this kind of accountability without sacrificing the main ethic of the CBC, which is high-quality programming, diversity of voices, alternative points of view? And what's wrong with Hockey Night in Canada? I know it's not highbrow, but it brings eyeballs to the CBC and it's a connection we all have on a sort of visceral level.

8:25 p.m.

President, Alliance for Children and Television

Peter Moss

May I make a comment? I almost couldn't contain myself.