Evidence of meeting #28 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Welcome to the 28th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.
Our first item of committee business is the notice of motion from Maria Mourani. I think everyone has received the motion.
The motion reads as follows:
That the Heritage Committee undertake a study on the living conditions of artists and issue recommendations on measures the federal government could take to improve these conditions.
Would you like to speak to the motion...?
Yes, Mr. Abbott.
3:35 p.m.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Mr. Chair, I wonder if I may offer something that hopefully will be helpful.
Considering that we will be taking a look at how we're going to get organized with respect to the CBC and other matters of business, and considering that this motion by Ms. Mourani obviously is something very long term and will take up a whole lot more than eight future meetings, and that's what we're talking about, I'm wondering--I'm asking a question here, I'm not even advising--if we should consider the second order of business, which is how we're going to get organized on the CBC; take a look a future business; and then consider Ms. Mourani's motion. Perhaps we could have a discussion about it, but we might want to table the motion simply because we will have used up the time between now and the end of June.
Hopefully that is a constructive suggestion. I think the second order of business will likely use up all of that time, in which case it might be wiser for us to then take a look at Ms. Mourani's motion, the advisability of it...and perhaps doing it in the fall, if we were to do that.
3:35 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I understand my colleague's concerns. I am very aware of the fact that we do not have very much time left, unfortunately: there are but eight, or perhaps ten meetings to go. I would nevertheless like us to discuss the motion even if we wind up having to study it upon our return in the fall. I have no problem with that.
This is a very important issue that will mean our meeting with a certain number of witnesses. I do not believe that two meetings would suffice, because this is an issue that involves various sectors, whether we are talking about writers or sculptors. It is a rather hefty file.
As Mr. Abbott was saying, this study will most certainly require several meetings. I would suggest that we discuss the motion and that we confirm today whether or not we will be studying this matter. If we find that we do not have enough time, our work in the fall could begin with this. We could even begin our planning for the fall session.
3:40 p.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Thank you, Chair.
I just want to say that I agree with Madame Mourani. I think it's a very important study to undertake. I'm glad she's brought this motion forward. I think the situation of artists' income is something that should command our attention here at this committee.
I agree with her, too, that it's unlikely that we'll get to it this spring, but I think it should clearly be on our agenda so that when we return in the fall we know that it's one of the things we have to look forward to. Over the summer months, the committee staff can also help us prepare for that study come the fall.
So I think it's very important that we agree to this today and make preparations in light of that commitment.
3:40 p.m.
Liberal
Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to support this. I support it wholeheartedly. I wish I'd brought it forward first, before Maria.
I think the living conditions of artists are deplorable. The average income for most artists is about $24,000 a year. They have absolutely no access to any benefits whatsoever, EI or otherwise. They have no access to retirement income. Many of them--for instance, the artists who write plays, write books, or produce--find that they may spend two years with zero income at all doing that work. Then, when they do get the income, they are taxed fully on it for that year. So such things as income averaging should be discussed.
In many countries of the world, in Europe--in Ireland, for instance--artists are seen as integral to a country's culture. They are treated with a great deal of respect, and honoured. We don't seem to do that here with our artists. So I really support this wholeheartedly.
Jim brought up the issue of when we will do this. I think we could look at it in the summer, because I think it will take some time. It's something that will require a really good, solid study, with good recommendations, concrete and doable, to improve the lives of artists in this country and to show that we value innovation and creativity in a 21st century economy.
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I think in some ways we're duplicating the work of other committees in Parliament that have looked at this issue. There was a huge Senate study on poverty that looked at the issue of a guaranteed minimum annual income and issues around that.
My view is that maybe we should focus on studying something else in the fall, as opposed to this specific issue, because this is more tied to income levels and poverty and it's not specific to artists. While many artists may be living below the poverty line, it's not because of their vocation; it's because of the fact that they don't make enough money. That's not specific to them as artists, because many other Canadians find themselves in the same situation. There's been much study done as to what the potential solutions are, whether it be a guaranteed annual income, whether it be increasing the working income tax benefit, or whether it be other measures the government could take.
The point I just want to make here, Mr. Chair--
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Just a moment. There's a point of order over here, and then we'll come back to you, Mr. Chong.
3:40 p.m.
Bloc
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
3:40 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
You say that Mr. Chong is discussing the motion. Are we discussing the motion or are we talking about whether or not we are going to discuss the motion?
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
--Ms. Fry spoke to your motion. I think Mr. Chong is speaking to the motion in a little different way.
3:40 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Mr. Chairman, I have not discussed my motion, I have not even presented it yet. Might I at least present it?
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
3:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Then what we'll do is dispense with Mr. Chong and we'll let you...and then we will deal with the motion.
What I want to say to this committee is that we dealt the other day with four motions that probably are going to take upwards of six to eight months to do. Now we have another motion coming before us. They're all important. Are we only going to discuss motions, or are we going to decide where this committee is going to go and what we are going to work on? That's what I want to say.
If you want to present your motion, present your motion, and then we'll discuss your motion and we'll deal with it.
3:45 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Mr. Chairman, could everyone be given a copy of the motion? Thank you.
The motion reads as follows:
That the Heritage Committee undertake a study on the living conditions of artists and issue recommendations on measures the federal government could take to improve these conditions.
We wish to study the living conditions of artists in particular, and not those of the general population. Why? Because, unfortunately, only 9% of writers in Canada manage to live on the copyright royalties they receive for their work. Unfortunately, copyright royalties are not systematically exempted at the federal level, as they are in Quebec.
Authors and actors are considered to be self-employed workers and they therefore are not entitled to employment insurance. For example, you will see some actors get one, two or three contracts in the course of a year, and they therefore receive a certain income. After that period, they may not get another contract for one or two years. Unfortunately, they must pay their taxes, just like everyone else, for the year in which they are paid, whereas in countries such as France and Great Britain, they could spread out their income tax over five years. Artists in those countries pay their taxes, but it is spread out over time.
Let us look at another example. The budget for the Canada Council for the Arts is unfortunately still at the same level, namely approximately 170 million dollars. This is the organization artists call upon, be they sculptors or painters, in order to obtain grants for the pursuit of their art.
It is my belief that a study of the living conditions of artists is essential.