Canadian Heritage Committee on May 10th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage and our study on the review of national protocol procedures.

We're very glad to have with us today the panel that we do.

First, from the Funeral Service Association of Canada, we have Scott MacLeod, Sue Lasher, and Brian McGarry.

From the Hotel Association of Canada, we have Tony Pollard, president.

Allan Cole is a mortuary affairs contractor for Department of National Defence and RCMP.

From the Correctional Service of Canada, we have Don Head, commissioner.

And from the International Association of Venue Managers, we have Richard Haycock, general manager.

Welcome to all of you. The way this usually works is that you'll have about seven minutes for opening remarks. Then we'll go into a time for questions and answers. We're scheduled to be in this meeting until about 12:50 p.m., when we'll have some committee business.

With that, I'll turn it over to you, Tony. Welcome. It's good to see you again. We look forward to your remarks.

The floor is yours.

[Tony Pollard, President, Hotel Association of Canada]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'm delighted to be here. I was delighted to receive the invitation last week to come here.

I look around the room and I see a lot of my old friends, including Gord Brown, who is a hotelier as well as a member of Parliament. Maybe we should put Gord over here and me over there somewhere.

[A voice]

It depends on which party.

[Tony Pollard]

I'm completely apolitical. I do this for a living.

Again, thank you, Mr. Chairman and all members of the committee. It's an honour and a privilege to be here with you today to talk about national protocol issues.

At the outset, I'd like to say that hotels have extensive knowledge and expertise on protocol procedures; there's no doubt about that. At the same time, we're leaders in providing service delivery to all folks, including VIPs and distinguished visitors. This isn't new to us. Frankly, we go back to Canada's founder and first governor, Samuel de Champlain, and the Order of Good Cheer. We're pretty good at what we do most of the time, I'd like to think.

Very quickly I will provide some background for you. I didn't want to miss the opportunity.

In 2010 tourism generated about $73.4 billion in total revenue, but 80% of that came from the domestic market and about 20% from exports. Tourism contributed about $20 billion in federal revenue. I always like to say whenever I appear before a committee that we're the good news folks. We actually bring in revenue for the government. We have about 600,000 jobs in Canada.

The lodging sector, which is what I specifically represent, did about $16.4 billion in revenue in 2010. We employ about 284,000 people. We paid out directly to the feds about $3.2 billion in taxes.

The total value of all of our assets across Canada is about $43 billion. Mr. Brown is one of the owners of part of those assets.

Let's get down to the question of what we're doing here.

Before giving you a summary of the protocol procedures that we have in hotels, I want to emphasize that it's always the guests whom we turn to for direction on their specific needs and requirements. That's our standard operating procedure. We find out from them what they need. Frankly, as long as it's legal and moral and falls within the agreed upon budget, we will typically deliver what it is they're looking for.

I will give you an idea of what some of the protocol items are that we have in hotels.

First and foremost, safety and security is our number one priority. It always has been and always will be.

We have protocols on the assignment of floors and rooms, including the rooms above, below, and beside a suite in question, depending upon who it is, where they're from and what their requirements are.

We have military requirements in hotels. Case in point: the Chief of the Defence Staff has to have a corner room that faces southeast to be able to have satellite hook-up.

I'm trying to give you a feeling for some of the concerns and interests we have.

We have protocols on exits and entries into hotels. Quite often you will find a situation whereby the individual in question doesn't want to go through the front door. We have protocols for that.

For security and scanning, we have protocols in place to take care of those issues. Fortunately, we live in Canada, but I'm sure most of you have travelled to places like Asia or Africa where you will see different types of protocols vis-à-vis whether you can drive up to the hotel or whether you have to park outside because you don't want to have any terrorist threats. We have those in place.

Moving on, there are orders of precedence, who takes precedence over whom. It's similar to that in the Government of Canada, if you're a member or a cabinet minister, whether you're PC, etc.

We have protocols in place for receiving lines as to who appears where. You folks have seen that.

With regard to interpretation, there are very strong protocols. We see those right in this room.

With regard to recognition of honoured guests—how does that work? There are protocols there.

There are protocols for signing ceremonies or for dealing with foreign dignitaries. We have protocols for flags, for which flag gets placed where and how, for which one is higher or lower, and for where they sit.

There are table designs and room layouts, similar to those for this room. There are protocols in place for those.

There are protocols for toasting.

There are protocols for cross-cultural fundamentals. How do you deal with various groups from around the world? What do we have there?

There are protocols for handling the press and media representatives. How do those work? What happens if somebody wants to go in and you say “No”? We've seen that before.

There are significant protocols regarding coordination with police forces and who does what, when, where, and how.

Two items that are always of paramount concern....[Technical Difficulty—Editor] We have to adhere to that. It's always front and centre. When it was introduced about 10 years ago, I remember it was a major item for hotels: what you could ask for, what you couldn't ask for, what you could get. Then we have the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which obviously is a piece of legislation that prevails.

Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I would be delighted to take any questions you have and to see how we can help. I understand the process, and I understand you're trying to move forward to establish new protocols. From the hotel side, we'd be delighted to be of assistance, in whatever way we can, and later, when questions come up, we'd be delighted to be of service.

That's my presentation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Pollard.

Now we'll hear from the Funeral Service Association of Canada.

The floor is yours.

[Scott MacLeod, President, Funeral Service Association of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm Scott MacLeod. I'm a funeral director in Fredericton, New Brunswick, and I understand, Mr. Chairman, you're from New Brunswick. I'm honoured to be here.

With me today is Sue Lasher, who is our vice-president from Calgary, and Brian McGarry, who is our expert in protocol of funeral service. You might know Mr. McGarry. He's a local funeral director. He's written a book that's just been released, From Paupers to Prime Ministers: A Life in Death. I'll be interested to hear what Mr. McGarry has to say in a moment.

The Funeral Service Association of Canada is perfectly positioned to provide communication to our membership. We represent about 80% of all deaths in Canada, and we have a fantastic communication method to get anything for any directive you may have for our members. We'd be glad and honoured to provide that. We also have a good rapport with our provincial regulators, and we have contact with non-funeral directors as well. We'd be honoured to be a conduit to all funeral homes in Canada.

Although it's not the purview of this committee, we would like to mention that we are in discussions with Minister Blaney about Veterans Affairs concerns, current funding rates of the Last Post Fund. The fund is a not-for-profit organization that delivers funerals and a burial assistance program to eligible Canadian veterans. Fund levels for these funerals have not been adjusted since 2001, and rising costs have meant that funeral directors across Canada have been subsidizing the cost of veterans' funerals. We need a long-term solution to that. Just as we do for statesmen and stateswomen, we want to support our veterans.

I would now like to introduce Mr. McGarry as our expert in state funerals.

Brian.

[Brian McGarry, Funeral Service Association of Canada]

Thank you.

Perhaps, if I may say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

In case we might possibly take our work lightly—the global “we”—we've been flabbergasted, frankly, at the response by the public to these two books that were released a week ago. We've had over 1,100 folks purchasing them.

Just as an aside, that part of it all goes to charity.

But here's the point. I'd like, if you'd permit, Mr. Chair, to leave you a copy of both the album and the story. It's not all about state funerals, but there are two significant chapters that are in fact about state occasions as they apply to funerals. I'd be more than happy to leave those with the committee.

When you have a spare moment—I know you don't have many spare moments, honourable members—it's not a long dissertation, but I think it will give you some notion of how we've gone through this. We've been involved with something like 22 state funerals or partial state funerals. My colleague Don Renaud—who's behind me here—looked after Pierre Trudeau's service on our company's behalf. We go back to Mackenzie King, way back in 1950.

So I would like to leave that thought with you. We do have also, if you would permit me to table it with you, a manual—maybe it's on file already—written by Sergeant Major Eric Young, retired RCMP, that applies primarily to RCMP funerals but also flows over into other aspects of state occasions.

Maybe it's better to chat at question time. I think I'll leave it at that for now. I'd be more than delighted to have these distributed later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. McGarry.

We will now move to Mr. Cole.

[Allan Cole, Mortuary Affairs Contractor for Deployed Department of National Defence and Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, my name is Allan Cole. I am a funeral director, a mortuary affairs specialist, a logistics specialist, and even an event planner of sorts.

I am a proud member of the Funeral Service Association of Canada; however, the work I do, to some degree, is significantly different inasmuch as I have occasion in many circumstances to work directly on behalf of the government.

I followed my family's heritage and in my grandfather's footsteps and became a funeral director 34 years ago. I was raised in this profession and have been mentored by some of the most respected individuals in funeral service across Canada.

It is indeed an honour to have been asked to appear before this esteemed committee. During my career, I have served and participated in some of the most solemn events and occasions witnessed in Canada. I have been honoured to be a part of funerals for municipal and provincial police officers, our national police service, serving military personnel and veterans of all branches of service and all ranks, politicians, and high-ranking government officials.

Throughout my career I have facilitated observances of rituals, customs, traditions, and protocols. Some of these practices and considerations are of religious or cultural significance and dictate observances brought down through the ages to commemorate a life lived or to celebrate a person's lifelong accomplishments.

Death has always been commemorated with ritual and ceremony. Every culture has evolved with its own traditions around the matter, from the mummification of the ancient Egyptians to the massive pyre afforded a Viking chieftain.

Many burial customs were devised superstitiously to guard against the evil spirits thought to have caused the person's death. Chants, bell ringing, candles, and even gunfire have all been used to ward off these phantoms. Such practices have varied extensively with time, place, and religious beliefs, but many persist today as signs of respect toward not only the deceased but the grieving family that has lost a loved one.

To my knowledge, there are several directives or guides for the observance of appropriate protocol but no one single source from which we could derive the Canadian way of commemorating the loss of a uniformed person or dignitary, or celebrating their lifelong accomplishments.

Many Canadians have made tremendous contributions or have paid the ultimate price, and the way we commemorate their lives and service is in the national interests of all. That commemoration should be steeped in tradition and adhere to a national protocol that reflects our national heritage and is clearly identifiable as Canadian.

The Canadian Forces has its Canadian Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial. The Royal Canadian Legion has a guide for funerals, which includes the Legion tribute and process for such a tribute. It includes music and identifies participants, order of services, and more. The RCMP has its own guide for the regimental funeral, perhaps the current incarnation of the work done by retired corps Sergeant Major Eric Young, as Brian alluded to.

Public Works and Government Services Canada has a ceremonial guide that refers to state funerals·and protocols concerning such things as flags and guards.

At the provincial level there is a variety of guides and documents produced to direct what protocols should be observed. As I said, there's a variety of them, but no one single voice.

My firm has been honoured to serve as the mortuary affairs component for the Canadian Forces and the RCMP for many years. We facilitate the repatriations for fallen serving members from all over the world. I have conducted military funerals and burials in Canada and at the Commonwealth war graves cemeteries in France, Holland, Poland, and Belgium.

All of the repatriations since the beginning of the Afghanistan deployment were orchestrated as a joint effort between my firm and members of the Canadian Forces in Trenton, Ottawa, and Toronto. The tragic losses in Afghanistan represented many of the circumstances in which very public arrival ceremonies in Trenton resulted in some unique applications of military protocol and ceremonial considerations.

Of course, there was no precedent to refer to concerning the repatriation ceremony. Almost all of it was developed over time and became well organized and repetitive with the frequency of the requirement. Early repats began with the padre leading the casket from the aircraft to the hearse, with no families present. Then it was decided that padres should be present but not move with the remains, and families should be invited to the arrivals of their loved ones back in Canada.

Early on, there were many heated discussions to facilitate the repat ceremonies because there was no set protocol, no financial considerations to address the needs of travelling families, and no recognized authority to sort out the problems and solutions.

The Canadian Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial does not and did not provide for the playing of the bagpipes for most, or the use of a bugler instead for those fallen from the Van Doos regiment. Section 4 of the CF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial, entitled “The Unloading of a Casket from an Overseas Aircraft”, clearly states at point 3, “No band shall be in attendance”. But clearly, the introduction of a piper or bugler added to the respectful and dignified ceremony that quickly became part of a Canadian tradition known as the repatriation ceremony.

Further, the guide does not provide any direction for ceremonial considerations for attending family members.

Further, there was no basis in protocol for the establishment of the Highway of Heroes. However, this singular, uniquely Canadian practice put our method of honouring our fallen on the international stage. This tradition, as it was practised so many times, provided an outlet or a vehicle for ordinary Canadians to salute the men and women of the Canadian Forces and their families for the tremendous sacrifice they made on behalf of all of us.

I believe this singular event, while it was tremendously comforting to the families of the fallen, spawned a feeling of national pride and patriotism the likes of which we have not seen since World War II. The support for our Canadian Forces and our men and women in uniform reached an unprecedented level.

I personally believe fully in the merits, purpose, and benefits of having a nationally recognized protocol for funerals. With every one of these remarkable events, we recognize remarkable Canadians, and by doing so we make a contribution to the history of this great nation. Having a nationally recognized protocol is essential on a go-forward basis for the ongoing establishment and maintenance of our ceremonial traditions and processes.

However, having been involved for over a decade in the implementation of these various initiatives to memorialize, on a national stage, remarkable Canadians, I've become aware of some of the difficulties with interpreting protocol on a one-size-fits-all basis. The concern is that not everybody fits the circumstances that are drawn out in specific protocols.

I believe we need clear direction, with examples of how the protocol is to be implemented and with examples of variations that can be substituted as warranted. This direction should be from a singular national voice that serves as a keeper of the records for traditions, practices, and protocols.

I was asked to oversee the burial at Beechwood for our fallen from Afghanistan. Extensive direction concerning this sort of service is available from the Canadian Forces; however, this guide was written for a time when the funeral process was very different. Today in Canada, approximately 60% of our population opts for cremation rather than earth burial. The number of non-denominational, non-Christian, and non-religious funerals is growing proportionately with our population growth.

At Beechwood Cemetery here in Ottawa, they began to use an ark to carry the urn of a deceased person and to use four pallbearers to convey the urn from the hearse to the grave. This became an accepted practice at our National Military Cemetery. However, if this piece of equipment is not widely accepted or available in other cemeteries in Canada, this protocol then becomes impractical and in many cases impossible. Even the current flag-folding protocol, as it appears on various sites, I don't believe has ever been blessed as the Canadian way of folding our Canadian flag.

I'll share a brief story to demonstrate the importance of this. The flag protocol—the one that is widely used but not yet approved—as it's demonstrated on various federal websites is not easily accomplished with the flag that is provided by the Canadian Forces. The flag identified with the NATO stock number was a nylon flag and subsequently very slippery for pallbearers to grasp and fold crisply. We designed—our company designed—and produced a heavier canvas bunting-type flag that was far more conducive to this. It is now used widely throughout Canada and has become an industry standard as a casket flag. This is just an example to show only that the protocol or standard didn't meet the need satisfactorily and was not suited for the application.

For this reason, I would respectfully suggest that any future guidelines that are written or implemented should be a result of significant and extensive consultation and participation with stakeholders and experts such as funeral directors, clergypersons from all faiths, and those who have participated recently in ceremonies. Further, dissemination of the information should be online on the DHH website for all to see as needed. In addition, the historical significance, the origin, and the basis for the practice or tradition should be recorded so we don't lose sight of the reasons for why we do the things we do.

I thank you all for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Cole.

We now go to Mr. Head.

[Don Head, Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada]

Thank you.

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I'm feeling a little out of place here amongst the hoteliers, venue managers, and funeral directors. I hope there's no hidden message there.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Don Head]

And please don't take any message by the fact that I'm here with you.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Don Head]

I'm pleased to have the opportunity to appear before you today as part of your study on national protocol procedures.

At the Correctional Service of Canada, we're proud of our long and distinguished history of contributing to public safety. As you may be aware, our history dates back to 1835, and as such there's always been a sense of pride and honour associated with contributing to the public safety of Canadians.

As part of this, the Correctional Service of Canada is committed to honouring the tradition of ceremony and has taken action to ensure that this remains a priority for years to come. Today I'll provide you with a summary of the protocols or guidelines we follow within the Correctional Service of Canada.

Over the last several years, I've asked my agency to ensure that we are following proper protocols on a regional, national, and international basis. CSC is often called upon to participate in local, national, and international events, and as such we have taken steps to ensure that the participation of our staff and ceremonial units follows consistent protocols that portray a proper and respectful image of Canada and the Correctional Service of Canada.

In relation to the questions of the committee, it's important to note, Mr. Chair, that CSC does not have any formal manuals or guidebooks detailing protocols to be followed for events such as funerals or state visits. Consequently, my staff work with colleagues from the Department of Canadian Heritage as well as our partners within the Public Safety portfolio.

As you know, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and Canadian Forces have well-established manuals that CSC references for such ceremonies and events. That being said, the Correctional Service of Canada has established two formal protocols, one for our change-of-command ceremonies and one for the half-masting of the national flag of Canada within CSC, which was developed in partnership with the Department of Canadian Heritage.

Mr. Chair, change-of-command ceremonies are an important part of CSC's history. They represent the formal symbolic passing of responsibility, authority, and accountability of command from one correctional leader to another, whether they are wardens, regional deputy commissioners, or district directors. The ceremony provides the outgoing leader an opportunity to say goodbye to their staff and the incoming incumbent an opportunity to meet the women and men who contribute to the public safety of Canadians. By establishing proper protocols for these events, CSC has maintained an important tradition that dates back to our early history.

In addition to these protocols, CSC has developed a number of informal guidelines for our ceremonial unit. They include guidelines for the ceremonial guard as well as our volunteers in the pipes and drums unit.

Mr. Chair, if I may, I would take a few moments to talk about these important initiatives. CSC's ceremonial guard is filled on a voluntary basis. It consists of employees from across the country who often volunteer their personal time to participate in such events as graduation ceremonies, Remembrance Day parades, community events, and the national police and peace officers memorial in September. These women and men are proud of the work they do and the communities they serve on a daily basis.

CSC's pipes and drums unit is also filled on a voluntary basis by a combination of Correctional Service of Canada employees and community members. Individuals purchase their own equipment, which can cost upwards of thousands of dollars, to participate in this ceremonial group. I'm proud to have them as representatives of our organization.

It should be noted, Mr. Chair, that the safety and security of our staff, the offenders, and communities are never jeopardized as a result of staff participation in these units or ceremonial events. Decisions about attendance at events are made by the institutional head, always ensuring that the safety and security of our institutions and communities take priority over the attendance of staff at such events. In the vast majority of cases, staff actually volunteer to participate at these events on their own time.

In closing, I'm proud that CSC has made significant progress in defining the ceremonial protocols and procedures for our organization. I'm extremely proud of the work that the women and men within CSC do every day, and equally proud of how they represent the agency and Canada at events and ceremonies.

I can assure you that maintaining historical customs and following proper ceremonial protocols will continue to be of great importance to me and my organization.

Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to answer any questions you or the committee members may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Finally, Mr. Haycock.

[Richard Haycock, General Manager, International Association of Venue Managers]

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am proud to be here today representing the International Association of Venue Managers, an organization that is headquartered in Coppell, Texas, a suburb of Dallas.

I've been a member of IAVM for 24 years. I have previously served on the board of directors as a district vice-president, as chair of the professional education council, and as chair of the board of education. I currently serve as chair of the membership committee. For the next 30 days or so, I'll continue to be the general manager of Lansdowne Park here in Ottawa.

The mission statement for IAVM states: to educate, advocate for, and inspire public assembly venue professionals worldwide.

The International Association of Venue Managers is an organization committed to the professional operation of amphitheatres, arenas, auditoriums, convention centres, exhibit halls, performing arts venues, racetracks, stadiums, and university complexes. The IAVM provides leadership development, education and research, life safety and security training, and networking resources for the industry.

The association currently serves over 3,800 members worldwide, with approximately 3,000 of those being in North America. We have approximately 150 active members in Canada.

For the purposes of this committee's review of national protocol procedures, it is expected that other contributors to this review will delve into the ceremonial components of such events. Accordingly, the IAVM will provide its comments from the broader perspective of the venue as the event host.

From the outset, it is critically important for all parties involved with the event to have a shared understanding of the environment in which the event is being staged. This would include such things as: cultural influences, whether they be local or regional customs or those having more national or international scope; religion; current events, those being the circumstances leading to the occasion; and the background or history of the key figures involved. This shared understanding puts the venue in the best possible position to contribute to the group's common vision of success.

Whereas some ceremonial components may lend themselves well to a more standardized official protocol manual, it is not practical to think in terms of a standard official manual for event planning. Event planning is a fluid process; it's not an end state. You work toward establishing a planning framework or a guideline, representing your best practices for planning and organizing all applicable venue services.

There are certain fundamentals, of course, that you would want to address, including such things as admissions, parking and traffic, communication, catering, and furniture and equipment.

From the venue perspective, the objective is to honour the ceremonial program and support it by providing a comfortable, safe, and secure environment. Regardless of the venue, the overarching key consideration at all times must be the safety and security of all participants and attendees.

IAVM is an acknowledged international leader in the world of venue management, perhaps most notably through its Academy for Venue Safety and Security, AVSS.

The academy is an intense five-day training school in security planning and life safety management for the public assembly venue management industry. Using classroom sessions and tabletop exercises, AVSS takes students through an in-depth approach to all types of emergencies that can occur at public facilities.

The program encompasses a clearly defined four-stage safety and security planning process: risk and threat assessment; emergency preparedness; security operations plans, procedures, and protocols; and training plans and activities for venue event and security staff.

Another example of the expertise IAVM has developed over the years is that following the events of 9/11, IAVM responded aggressively by developing three best practices planning guides: one for arenas, stadiums, and amphitheatres; one for convention centres and exhibit halls; and one for theatres and performing arts centres. These best practices form the principles for the Academy for Venue Safety and Security's emergency preparedness and planning for venues, teams, leagues, events, and activities.

IAVM readily acknowledges that Canada has successfully hosted numerous world-class sport and entertainment events. There is a wealth of experience across the country at the federal, provincial, and local levels.

IAVM has a strong, ongoing working relationship with national bodies in the United States, including the Department of Homeland Security and the American Red Cross, and would embrace any opportunity to work with Canadian officials in the development of a national event planning and security template that could support all types of official functions or events under the auspices of the Department of Canadian Heritage, as well as Public Safety Canada.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you.

Now we will move to our question and answer time. The first round is seven minutes for the question and the answer. Members often ask questions right up to that seventh minute and then turn it over to the witness who has no time to answer.

Members, you're responsible for your time. If you want the witnesses to answer, make sure you leave them time to answer and everything will go fine.

This is a seven-minute round, and we will begin with Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Now I feel pressured.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank all of our guests for being here. The study we're doing is tremendously interesting, and the different suggestions and backgrounds you're bringing here today are going to be very useful for the study.

Mr. Haycock, you mentioned a couple of times that your organization of venue managers has developed a strong relationship with the Government of the United States for security, event planning, and structures, but that currently doesn't exist with the federal Government of Canada. Are you saying there's a better, stronger, and closer relationship between your international organization and the Government of the United States?

[Richard Haycock]

I'm reluctant to admit that we do not have a strong relationship with the federal government or the provincial governments. We have a relatively modest number of Canadian members within the association, but that should not undermine or understate the interests of the association in serving the membership worldwide. I know for a fact that there is a very specific interest in developing stronger relationships here in Canada.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

I shouldn't say a strong relationship, because that has a negative connotation. I mean more of a structured relationship, where you're working with them on security issues for different types of venues.

You said your organization has developed three separate planning guides. Convention halls is one, and you have another one for theatres and performing arts centres. When you developed those guides, did you work with government officials in the United States and Canada, or was it something your organization just did in trying to work within existing frameworks you have with officials?

[Richard Haycock]

A task force was developed within the association, drawing upon the expertise of members across the board. I can't recall with certainty whether there were any Canadian venue managers as part of that particular task force. There was certainly involvement from American emergency officials. Those guidelines or best practices documents are available to all of our membership, including those of us here in Canada, as a member-only download.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

My background is in school administration; I was a school principal. I know that after 9/11 there was a huge emphasis on emergency preparedness for anyone managing a facility, no matter what the facility was. There were different code-coloured scales for different types of things that could take place.

Is that the same as what you have experienced as a venue manager? Has a lot more emphasis been put on emergency preparedness in the last decade, decade and a half?

[Richard Haycock]

That is true, without question. The more rudimentary elements of event planning are things we tend to take for granted, and some of the examples I gave in my presentation.... Life safety and security have taken on an entirely different dimension since the events of 9/11. It's unfortunate that events such as that need to serve as a catalyst sometimes for things to become more proactive.

Certainly within the association a number of programs are ongoing. We've developed protocols for mass sheltering. If you recall, following the incidents in New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina, our public assembly venues were called into action for temporary housing.

When you have a large number of displaced people in any community, we represent the physical infrastructure that is most readily available to make that accommodation. So it was a natural extension for which we were not initially well prepared as an organization or as individual venue managers. That has been addressed.

We have the protocol for mass sheltering. We have an arrangement with the American Red Cross, for example, for addressing the registration of displaced persons using a ticketing platform, of all things—as simple as that. Work is continuing on many fronts.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you.

One of the things you mentioned, Mr. Cole, is that there are a lot of different guides and protocols out there for many different organizations, but there's no one source. You mentioned the term “the Canadian way”, particularly in the area of funerals of fallen officials. I would take from what you say that there's a need for that; that is a role for the federal government.

[Allan Cole]

I know other people have appeared before the committee. I work very closely with Stewart Kellock, the sergeant for the Toronto Police Service, who came to you and said the same thing, that during a variety of events that we have been involved in, we sought direction from any source in terms of where we could refer to come up with the right way to do things in keeping with Canadian standards and protocols. We found there wasn't a comprehensive document.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

With the remaining time I have left—there's probably not too much of it—could you all agree or disagree, maybe in a couple of quick comments, if we were to make a recommendation that we should try to have the Canadian way—some sort of central program or framework. One of the other things people brought to us is that you have to keep that flexibility. Would you agree that if we made that a recommendation, we would also have to recommend that this is a framework, and you have to maintain flexibility for things like funerals, for example, contacting the family and meeting the family's wishes? Is it safe to say you would all agree with that?

[Allan Cole]

Yes. In particular, the multicultural fabric of our nation dictates that we have to have that flexibility to address the variety of needs identified in the Canadian population today.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

You all would agree there is a need for some sort of central document, but not something that binds people too tightly? Is that fair to say?

[Allan Cole]

Absolutely.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Armstrong.

Mr. Nantel.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for participating in our study.

First off, I want to congratulate you, Mr. McGarry. We can clearly see how passionate you are about this topic. About a week ago, I believe, your book launch was celebrated at Ottawa City Hall. Congratulations.

I would say the funeral industry is certainly built on protocol; protocol is at the core of its activities, from ceremony to mourning. As you pointed out—at least I think it was you—protocol marks symbolic passings and helps allay our fears when someone departs this life.

What I am about to say is addressed to those of you who are directly involved in funeral services. I would imagine that every day, you are faced with a wide range of demands, given the different beliefs that people have. What do all those demands have in common, even though they vary from religion to religion?

[Brian McGarry]

Thank you for the question.

From the very formal aspect, the community involves many leaders of various religious faiths who attend, even though it might be a funeral for a Christian. In Ottawa, you might see Rabbi Reuven Bulka there. From that perspective, I think we're saying already we respect the family's beliefs, but we also respect all of you who are here today, even those who may not have a Christian background or whatever. So we do that. Of course, we meet with the family along with a member from Heritage Canada.

Perhaps I will let others respond. I would like to come back to Scott after your question for a very brief comment.

[Scott MacLeod]

To add to that, the challenges are vast for funeral directors today. As Brian has commented, the challenges we face are not just religious beliefs but family conflicts. You have issues within the family that we have to cope with. For example, we have had families that can only—the husband and wife are separated, so they come at different times. They don't want to sit beside each other. Those are just small examples of what we deal with every day. Of course, there's the religious belief. That could be handled through the funeral part of the service. That's specific to that area. In relation to the visitation, the receiving line, and all those details that are important to the funeral service, it's critical that we communicate with the family and have their input into what will happen with this state funeral.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you.

I will let you answer the question you wanted to answer.

[Brian McGarry]

I just wanted to augment what the Honourable Scott Armstrong was saying. We shouldn't at all discount the security aspect in funerals now. I'm going to give you a very quick two examples.

One is John Diefenbaker's funeral at Christ Church Cathedral here in Ottawa. We were seated and we were ready for the clergy to start the service when, lo and behold, there was a bomb threat. The church had already been swept by the RCMP, by the local police. They were quite satisfied, but who ultimately decides? So I took it upon myself, along with Graham Glockling, who some of you may know from Heritage.... Joe Clark was the Prime Minister at the time. We went to his seat of honour, of course, and he was right near John Diefenbaker's casket, so we said, “Sir, this is the situation. What do we do?” To add a little humour, he said, “The only guy who can hurt me in here is actually in the box.” What he meant was that the police have looked after it, they've taken care of it, and I think we'll take our chances on that.

Secondly, very quickly, it happens more often than we'd like. In Montreal, with Pierre Trudeau, as we were moving to city hall, again there was a threat that there was going to be a bomb at city hall. Your man in the RCMP, Sergeant Major Mercier, I think it was at the time—he's retired now, a very capable guy—stopped the procession and they did their immediate checks, whatever they entail, quite a lot I think, and he said proceed. We were actually stopped for maybe close to a half hour.

I just wanted to underline, sir, what you were saying and the importance of that now in today's world.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you.

Actually, Mr. Cole was referring to some holes and variations that are uncertain in many situations concerning the military. Unfortunately, DND could not come as witnesses, so they may have, according to the other witnesses....

Those people may have coordination issues, but the military service seems to be quite adequate.

Mr. McGarry, your book demonstrates the fact that protocol runs quite smoothly here in Ottawa. In coordinating the various aspects involved, you consult certain references, and usually those are experts, thankfully. You don't just become an expert. You have subject matter experts, and at the other end, in the protocol offices themselves, you also have people who know what they are doing. It all seems to work well.

[Brian McGarry]

This shouldn't be a criticism, of course, of Heritage Canada, for instance, or the RCMP, not at all. I think it's the inconsistency when something happens.

Most recently, with the Honourable Jack Layton, it involved two cities, two funeral directors. We were only in a supportive role; Rosar-Morrison in Toronto had the lead role. There was a bit of inconsistency, but I think we came across your expert in Toronto in the city police and we were able to coordinate.

So it's not a criticism so much as some sort of website so that someone can go to immediately and get some base instructions to start the process.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Actually, on the Heritage website, it is true that protocol is under “Anthems and Symbols”. I guess protocol should be a separate thumbnail.

[Brian McGarry]

I think so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Nantel.

Just as a note, Mr. Nantel, the Canadian Forces and the Legion are going to be appearing later.

Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I'm not going to take too long, given your directions. We have so many witnesses, so I'm just going to get my questions out at the beginning and I'll let all of you answer the questions very simply.

Number one is a question I asked our last witnesses, which was, if we're looking at one source that is flexible yet somewhat uniform, as in how we deal with protocol across the board for everything you do, who should handle that? Who should be the one to do that?

Also, we talk about the frustrations, and that interests me. You mentioned your frustrations. What frustrates you the most when dealing with protocol, when dealing with your clients? You take the fine line between what the client wants or what the family wants and of course the rigidity or uniformity across the board in how this type of thing is handled.

[Tony Pollard]

Thank you very much, Mr. Simms.

From a hotel point of view—and I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all when I say this—we go to the guest or the client when they approach us, and so long as what they are asking for is legal and moral and we've agreed upon a budget, then we will typically do just about anything at all to make your life comfortable and happy.

Your question is about where we run into difficulties, about what is the biggest hindrance. The Government of Canada is our single largest client. The government represents between 11% and 12% of all of our business, including you folks. There is not one single thing where we say, “Oh, my goodness, this is a problem.” We have most of it pretty much figured out—our industry has been around for thousands of years.

I can't say that there's one single thing. Bureaucracy sometimes can become a little bit of a pain—which it is to all of us—but typically, most people have it figured out. What do they need? What do they want? What are the requirements? Some people are better educated on it and more experienced than others, but I can't really say that there's one single item.

That's a long answer to....

[Scott MacLeod]

I think the challenge that the funeral service deals with today is that the client or the family we are dealing with comes in to make arrangements as an open book almost. They're not prepared for the scenario. They're not prepared for this to happen, and the funeral homes can really help to direct them. So if there were a set protocol that we said was a standard across Canada for a state funeral and asked if they were comfortable with it, I think the majority of families that have come through our funeral homes would accept the majority of that or a high proportion of that.

That is our challenge in funeral service, in that families will come in and have a basic idea, or they want one little thing that has to happen because “Dad always mentioned this”, but then we have to work around it. We have to say okay, and then ask “What about this and this and this?” and get to that final service plan. So a standardized template would be fantastic to present to a family. I think they would be open for that.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Do you have any suggestions on who would do that?

[Scott MacLeod]

Well, it has to come from a central location. At the FSAC level, of course, we'd be glad to assist in any way we can.

[Sue Lasher, Vice-President, Funeral Service Association of Canada]

I don't have a lot more to add to what Scott said, but obviously every service we do has a sense of protocol to it, I think. Obviously there are the different cultures and religions that we deal with all day, every day. I guess the important thing that I just want to keep coming back to is the flexibility for the family's needs. Sometimes they kind of get lost in all the protocol.

[Brian McGarry]

In Ottawa, we look very much toward Heritage Canada, obviously, and currently to the two Kevins, as I call them—Kevin Vickers and also Kevin MacLeod. As you know, they are the Sergeant-at-Arms and the Usher of the Black Rod. They are wonderful people to work with—Heritage Canada is, too, by the way.

Just to give you one example where there's a hard...well, we found the Canadian compromise. That's what we turned to when Mr. Diefenbaker died. As you may be aware, he wasn't that fond of the new Canadian flag and had left instructions that it was not to be on his casket. I'll get to the great Canadian compromise—you'll see it in the book. We ended up actually having the two flags—not proper protocol, but we had to do something—stitched together and the two flags were actually on the casket.

So these are the surprises we get, and particularly from a family dynamic, as you keep referring to. His stepdaughter was not too pleased that this was created right at the time of the funeral, but we got through it. But we needed someone to turn to, and we needed someone to be the boss. Usually it is what I'll call the chief of ceremonial oaths—at the time, Graham Glockling, back in the Diefenbaker days. There was some discussion, but there's a point of entry, and to me—and I'm sure my colleague will have others—it's Heritage Canada that we are really.... They and the family are who we are working for.

[Allan Cole]

I agree completely. The “who”, in my opinion, is history and heritage.

You asked about frustration, and I wouldn't characterize what we do as resulting in frustration. We're used to opposing viewpoints, and we've become very adept at creating options and alternatives, which is what we have to have in dealing with our Canadian population.

I would reiterate what Brian said to highlight the idea of some key points that would serve as a starting point, in terms of these being the key elements of what we see, and then we see how that fits. So the family will make their determination as to whether they want the body present or the body not present for the funeral, whether to have cremation before the ceremony or after the ceremony, whether they are honouring the deceased in a casket or in an urn, how the flag is to be positioned when there is an urn—these sorts of things—and create variations and options. As Scott said, we in our community would be delighted to help you understand the variety of options that are available to address the current scenario as we find it in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

I gave you an extra 30 seconds, and that's a wrap.

Mr. Calandra.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses.

Mr. Cole, you mentioned something interesting with respect to folding of the flag and the type of material that should be used. It might seem like a very small point, but also something that could cause a great deal of embarrassment in a community or in a place where they may not have that knowledge.

Just as an aside, I received a letter from a gentleman in Vaudreuil, Quebec. He had researched the protocol for destroying a Canadian flag. I'm not sure if it's true or not, but apparently the protocol calls for burning the Canadian flag in order to destroy it. But of course, with the new materials that most of the flags are made of, that's probably not a very good idea. It's an example of protocol maybe needing to be updated.

More specifically, Mr. Cole, are there other little things like that? I know you probably don't like to talk about repatriation; it's not an easy thing to talk about. Are there other little things that you've come across that if we wrote down and supplied to other people, we would avoid embarrassment at very significant ceremonies, be they for fallen firefighters or police officers across this country, and it's as simple as writing it down?

[Allan Cole]

Absolutely. I've had a variety of circumstances. I won't relate the specifics of most, but I've had a flag blow off a casket during a ceremony where a great deal of respect and reverence was paid to placing the casket on the grave. Everyone was gathered, as they were to have been. The bearer party was in the process of beginning to undress the casket and remove the flag, and a wind came by and blew the flag away. We thought afterwards about a variety of things we could and should have done to avoid that. But it's exactly that, the lessons learned, if conveyed appropriately, would avoid that sort of circumstance.

As Canadians like to follow the letter of the law and they like to do what is written on the piece of paper, I can tell you there have been a variety of circumstances when we've gone ahead. We've had a cremation of the remains, taken the cremated remains in an urn, and then placed it back into a full-size casket so that we could follow protocol in terms of this being how one appropriately addresses the funeral service for someone in uniform. We had reduced the remains of the individual down to that size, yet they were carried on their shoulders in a box that was half the size of this table.

So there is a variety of things, and we would be delighted, as a profession, to share with you some of the key elements that we think could help you avoid the pitfalls of any embarrassment that would befall that sort of circumstance.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Mr. Head, you talked about your members. Your members work very long hours in very difficult circumstances and situations. Why would they volunteer their time to do this?

[Don Head]

I think it's truly a reflection of what the staff believe in. They believe in service to their country. They believe in service to their community and really want to show that. Showing up at some of these very important ceremonies in a ceremonial uniform is part of their way of showing respect to their colleagues, and to their colleagues who have fallen. It's something that's really personal for them.

I think anybody you find who wears any kind of uniform is of that same mindset. They wear a uniform because they're providing some service to somebody. In this case, they provide public safety services to Canadians. They feel proud of that. They feel proud of showing the fact that they are part of that kind of organization. And they feel the need to show, as I say, respect for colleagues, particularly colleagues who have fallen in the line of duty.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

One of the underlying principles or motivations for protocol and getting it right is that it's an ultimate show of respect for your country. It's a way of unifying your country, and it's a show of respect for somebody who has sacrificed, in a lot of instances, for their country.

To get it wrong or to not talk about it could ultimately be the ultimate sign of disrespect, when you have the ability to actually get it right. Would you agree with that?

[Allan Cole]

I do completely.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Officers fall not just in big communities in large venues. When an officer is killed in the line of duty in a small town, it puts a huge strain on.... Often they go to a hockey arena to do it. The timeframes are very short. I would assume that they would have absolutely no ability within the very short timeframe to ensure that they're getting it right, because of all the stresses they're being put under.

You said an event planning and security template would be something we should perhaps be working towards. Are there examples we could take from, for example, the United States with respect to security planning, to use as a template to help start our own studies here? How do we help these smaller venues? Canada for the most part is made up of small communities. Outside of the large cities, most of these events are going to take place in very small communities. I guess the same would go for the hotel question. How can we start bringing this together quickly?

[Richard Haycock]

Mr. Chairman, I think the observation is right on point. One of the reasons we have a relatively small number of Canadian members in our association is that so many of the subject venues are in small communities with modest budgets and modest means. They're not able to participate in the same way.

I don't want to overstate the quantum of it, but having a national template, if you will, a Canadian resource these folks can go to, in my opinion, would be of tremendous value to them. Under those types of circumstances, there's already a tremendous amount of stress.

I know that here in Ottawa not too long ago, when we honoured Constable Eric Czapnik, the service was held in our venue. It was one of the most amazing events, in over 30 years in the industry, I've ever participated in. That all came together in a span of 9 or 10 days. It was truly amazing.

It takes, as I'm sure other members of the panel could recognize, a tremendous amount of effort.

Again, it's not likely to be a one-size-fits-all kind of solution, but here are the key things. In a smaller local area you're not likely to be faced with the same levels of security concerns you may have here in the nation's capital, for instance. Some of the key things are to have something that is perhaps scalable and something that provides the basics and at least gives them an opportunity to get started. Often, they simply don't know where to begin.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Now we're into our five-minute rounds.

Mr. Cash.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here.

I'm just curious, Mr. Haycock. How many Canadian members do you have?

[Richard Haycock]

We have approximately 150 currently.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

This is an international organization, so how many American members do you have?

[Richard Haycock]

We have almost 3,000.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Just to refer back to a question from Mr. Calandra, I think part of the question is whether we are borrowing some traditions from the United States. I've often heard the other side asking whether we should be developing our own, so it's interesting that the member would ask for some guidance from American protocol and systems.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

I think it's important to clarify that it was specific to event planning and security, not to Canadian traditions for protocols. There's a touch of misrepresentation by the member about what I asked the witness.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Carry on, Mr. Cash.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

I wanted to ask Mr. Cole something.

In general, what I'm hearing here is that protocol is important and complex. We have some experts in funeral procedure here, and we all know that one of the most delicate moments in people's lives is when they are at funerals for their loved ones. It's a very vulnerable time. You and your colleagues execute your duties exceptionally well. I've been to many funerals—alas—and I've noticed a high level of professionalism. You've established this protocol of professionalism based on what? How have you gotten to this place of delicate diplomacy?

[Scott MacLeod]

Mr. Chairman, funeral service has evolved, obviously, to where it is today. Generations before us started with building furniture. A lot of funeral homes were initiated through a need for a casket, so a casket was designed. I won't go back through all the history, but slowly there was an evolution towards a service, and someone in the community needed to provide that, so the furniture builder became the go-to person.

In more recent history, though, funeral service has been evolving more and more away from faith and churches. I know in our own funeral home, about 70% of our services are done from our chapel. The main reason is that there is no church connection for a family. That situation is increasing. And with cremation services and direct cremation services, that's all changing too. In the last 10 years there's been a big shift in funeral service, and that is continuing into the future, and that's directed primarily from and around the funeral home.

I've been to many funerals myself, outside of my facility, conducted by other funeral homes. I'm very interested in how something has become a custom in an area, when I don't have it in my area, so there are very unique ways that things happen. A prime example is that for many years we would rest in family homes in a rural community and we would go directly to the church. One family decided they would like to have the minister come to the home and have a prayer at the home. From then on, that became the custom. So there are multiple ways in which things happen.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

In other words, protocol or customs are living things, in a way. They are evolving constantly as we evolve. You can trace, on many levels, the vast changes in Canadian culture and society by how we honour those who are deceased, I would think.

So if we fix this stuff and make a hard core rule that says, “This is how we do this, this is how we do that”, are we boxing ourselves in? Do we need the flexibility if we're talking about some protocols here? How important is that? Are we talking about a guidebook, or a framework, or some place where we can go on the web to find out how to do certain things, or are we talking about getting down to the nitty-gritty of each particular step?

[Scott MacLeod]

I really believe that we need a template—I might call it that—or a guideline. The challenge for families is, what's appropriate and what's the right thing to do here? I hear that a lot in the funeral service.

Even though they have their own idea or, as I mentioned before, they might have a certain custom that dad or grampy always wanted, they still want to do the right thing, and they want it to represent their loved one well in the community. At services, they want to be proud of the event. They want to be proud of that moment in time for their loved one.

We give a lot of direction as funeral directors. That's what we do when people ask if this is okay or if that is okay, or if they can do this or do that. So anywhere they can go to outside of us and be able to say that here's a template for a state funeral.... That would be I think very important. But again, make it so that it's adaptable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

That will have to be it, Mr. Cash.

[Andrew Cash, NDP, Davenport, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Mr. Hillyer and Mr. Calandra, you're going to split your time.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

To start off, Mr. Haycock, your members understand that there's a difference between security and planning and the respect we show—the Canadian traditions we show—when we're burying a recognized fallen hero.

[Richard Haycock]

Yes, Mr. Chairman, without question, and I will speak as a Canadian member of this international association. We always have to apply filters to the information we receive from abroad. It's not unlike going from jurisdiction to jurisdiction within the United States. When we step out of that country and we look at our own needs, we have to apply filters so that we are making it more applicable to our local circumstances, as I mentioned earlier.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

I just wanted to make sure, because my NDP colleague doesn't seem to understand the difference between safety and security and the Canadian traditions that we're talking about in national protocol.

With that, I'll hand it over to Mr. Hillyer.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Pollard, in regard to the protocol at hotels, you mentioned a whole bunch of areas for which protocol is a concern, but to what extent, in your experience or from talking to your colleagues, do guests or space renters look to the hotel management for guidance around protocol when they're trying to set up something? Do they ask what to do in that situation?

Also, to what extent would protocol procedures be useful when a group already knows what protocol they have in mind and tells you what resources, materials, and labour they need to put the protocol in place?

[Tony Pollard]

Let me give an example. Let's say, Mr. Hillyer, that you want to do an event in a hotel and you really aren't too sure what to do. You've never dealt with a hotel before. We will walk you through all of the various steps. I don't want to be disrespectful, as I said before, but remember that in hotels—and this is going to sound very unCanadian—we're in business to make money.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Tony Pollard]

That said, in a hotel, you have banquet managers, sales managers, and sales teams, and we generate revenue by asking if you would like to have a meal served. You say, “Oh, very good, thank you very much.” We ask if you would like to have entertainment, which we can arrange. You say, “Very good, thank you very much.”

For example, let's say you have a podium. You say that you have with you a federal member of Parliament or a provincial MPP or MNA, or whatever, and you ask where you put the flags. We'll tell you where to put the flags and in what order. We have all of that.

But what I will go back to is that we have people in place who are paid to upsell. Again, it sounds very unCanadian, Mr. Chairman, but we have people in place to walk you through everything you need to do. Now, if you want to do something very untoward.... As I said before, so long as it's legal and moral, we'll do it for you. We have people in place.

I would tell the committee that if you're looking for protocols in a hotel, we can help you with all these various steps. For this submission today, I just put down a whole bunch of things that we do, but we'll help you walk through that.

But I want to reinforce that one of the things we would do first if it were something for the state would be to ask whoever is organizing if they have talked to Heritage Canada. If it's a funeral, the very first thing the hotel person would ask is, “Who is arranging the funeral?” Then they would say, “Let's speak with Mr. McGarry, Mr. MacLeod, or Ms. Lasher...”. We aren't funeral directors. We will go out to wherever the expertise is.

But within the hotel itself, Mr. Hillyer, we can walk people through each and every step of the way.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Do you have any comments on that same question, Mr. Haycock?

[Richard Haycock]

Fundamentally, as was mentioned earlier, the clients who are coming into our venues are our guests. We too are intending to make money—although most don't—and there certainly is a very strong desire to meet clients' needs in every way, shape, or form, given certain parameters. We have access to all the same sorts of resources as the hotels have. Typically the biggest difference between us is perhaps capacity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Hillyer.

Now we will turn to Mr. Dubé for five minutes.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mainly, I want to come back to the whole funeral issue. I am fascinated by the desire to do the right thing—perhaps “proper” would be a better word. I'll give you a personal example. Someone in my family passed away a few months ago, and we added touches to the funeral to celebrate that person's life, not all that different from what was done when our former leader, Mr. Layton, passed away. It was my grandmother's brother who died. After the funeral, my grandmother said it was a good thing that the priest had been flexible, making it possible to add touches that ordinarily would not have fit with a traditional ceremony.

I appreciate how important tradition is. It involves a ceremony and a certain level of decorum or protocol—our topic of study. There has to be room for some flexibility, however, and in listening to you, I got the sense that you all agree on that point. All the witnesses we heard from previously considered it an acceptable compromise, contrary to what some people claim. I hear a lot of talk about the mistakes that were made, protocol procedures that were not followed. And yet, it all seems to run quite smoothly most of the time; there are some fine partnerships at work.

If we consider protocol for state funerals, for instance, would you say you work well with the people involved, be they at Heritage Canada or the House of Commons? Have you encountered problems in the past that may have prevented you from arranging a proper funeral service, particularly a state funeral?

[Brian McGarry]

I guess the short answer is no, or at least not in our experience. We've had wonderful professionals from Heritage Canada and....

I've forgotten the name before Heritage Canada, but même chose.

There have been a couple of issues raised here, though, and you've alluded to them whether you realize it or not. Our industry is of course very different from the hospitality industry, the hotels or the other colleagues here. There may have been a time when we were trained to upsell. That's gone, it really is, and thank goodness.

The point I'm coming to is that we should be obligated now, as funeral directors, because we have so many imported caskets and products...and that's fine. I mean, we can get our products wherever we want. I do think there is an obligation on our part, however, and it's happened twice in our experience, to be transparent to the family about where the product came from, whether it be from China....

And there are caskets coming in from China. My wife is Asian, so I'm not criticizing my wife, believe me.

I think there's an obligation to say, in the selection room, that this one is a Canadian-made casket, that one is from the U.S., etc., and let the family decide. Some families frankly don't care, but I can think of two families who did care. It caused a very awkward situation.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I don't mean to cut you off, Mr. McGarry, but I don't have a lot of time. I would like to know how that affects protocol. You say there should be better consultation with the family. How exactly does that tie in with specific regulations? Since we're dealing with families and their wishes, there has to be some room for flexibility. In short, what you are saying is that the process of consulting the deceased's family needs to be improved.

[Brian McGarry]

Yes, that and flexibility, as I think Mr. Cole and my colleagues alluded to earlier on. We're in a society now that is not what it was when I started—50 years ago; I'm in a rut, guys and ladies.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Brian McGarry]

No one will hire me anywhere else.

But no, sincerely, your question is absolutely correct: flexibility is the order of the day in our work.

As it happened in Quebec, if I may add very quickly, when René Lévesque died, his body was cremated and put in the casket, just like you referred to. That was his wish. Now, as far as the ceremony went, it was the usual.

So we have to be prepared to acknowledge those requests by the families. Flexibility is the answer.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I have one last question. You said you work well alongside the various authorities involved. Let us consider a military ceremony for a soldier who died tragically overseas and is being repatriated. As I understand it, the Department of National Defence already has very strict protocols in place, in light of all the military traditions, and that is perfectly understandable. We will have an opportunity to meet with DND officials later. So if you have a good partnership with them, I gather that they could consult people when a military ceremony is involved, and then hold a more traditional ceremony. Take a well-known situation that happened recently, Mr. Layton's funeral. His family was consulted and a more flexible ceremony took place. With cooperation, the right balance can be found, can it not?

[Allan Cole]

I would answer that in a couple of ways. First, generally, when you witness the funeral or the ceremony that unfolds in front of you, it will be seamless. Whether we've had to negotiate a variety of options and make adjustments and try to adapt, when you see it unfold it's always going to be like, “Boy, this is perfect.”

An example that comes readily to me was the case of the memorial service to commemorate the tragic loss of the four soldiers who lost their lives in Tarnak Farms in Afghanistan, the original losses in Afghanistan, the first four, who were tragically killed by friendly fire from the Americans. Individual funerals were held in the communities where they came from.

An enormous memorial service was undertaken in a large venue in Edmonton, because they were all members of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. That ceremony was spectacular. I witnessed it on television, and there were aboriginal aspects to it, there were drums that appeared out of the darkness—there were a variety of things, as I try to recollect. The organizers of this were artful with the tremendous tribute they paid to those soldiers; however, in my recollection it was not in keeping with standard protocol and that sort of thing. That's fine; however, when you go to duplicate that 15 years from now, or you say, what did we do the last time, if it doesn't reference specifically the protocol or the traditions or the normal practices that we view as part of the Canadian way of doing things, you lose track of what you did the last time.

I'm trying to explain it as best I can, and that would be my answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If we do establish a framework, who should do it and where should it be located? A couple of you have touched on the fact that you already coordinate and work with Heritage Canada.

I'm going to start with Mr. Head. In your presentation you said CSC has established two formal protocols, one for change-of-command ceremonies and one for the half-masting of the national flag of Canada within CSC. And you developed those in partnership with the Department of Canadian Heritage. Can you explain to me the process you worked on with them to establish those protocols. How did you do that?

[Don Head]

Most definitely. Thank you.

We reached out to them on where there needed to be protocol. I think one of the interesting things this committee is examining, or should be examining, is the definition of protocol. I hear the word being used quite a bit, and I would argue some things are not protocol; they're customs, approaches, or processes.

Protocols for us are a little different. When we talk about protocols we look at things such as our national symbols. I believe there need to be protocols for how we use and display our national symbols. When we engaged Canadian Heritage around the half-masting of the flag, we wanted to make sure we respected the protocols that existed. Was there any opportunity, in terms of flexibility, for doing anything differently, particularly related to the death of our own staff while on duty? So we worked with them on where there was absolute protocol that needed to be followed, standards that had to be respected, and where there was some flexibility. That was a really important piece.

We found Canadian Heritage very willing and forthcoming in helping us through that piece. There are some things we believed were protocol, only to find out they weren't. With other things they confirmed, “Yes, this is the way they need to be done.” I think for us and the committee it's just a matter of understanding the definition of protocol and what absolutely is protocol.

Others have commented on having some kind of framework or guideline. I think that's a very interesting approach. As it relates to protocol, I think it should be defined as where there is no opportunity to deviate. When we're talking about national symbols, they should be defined as protocols, but other things should be defined as guidelines and best practices.

Many of the very knowledgeable people around the table here who work in service industries talk about various practices and customs, and some good practices. I think one of the difficulties for organizations such as mine, or other uniformed organizations, in going forward and trying to do things is trying to find out some examples of those best practices. Unless you know Mr. Cole or Mr. McGarry, or know the right people to call, you're sort of left to your own devices to come up with things.

So when you go forward, if you look at establishing something, I think the right place is Canadian Heritage. If you're going to talk about protocols related to national symbols, then also look at putting in place something that is accessible in terms of best practices or approaches, or things that could be considered.

I think Mr. Cole's point earlier about the flag was a really good one. Outside my office are the names of all the employees in our history who have been killed on duty. I've been to many of their funerals, particularly back in the late 1970s and the early 1980s. The most recent one was when we had a staff member murdered in the Northwest Territories. We worked very closely with Canadian Heritage on the funeral because the minister was coming. We worked very closely with the family to respect their wishes. We adopted an approach where we would offer the flag to the family. But we found out very quickly, after going through a dry run, that folding a vinyl flag was impossible. We ended up finding a cloth one that could be starched so we could do it. Starching the flag seems a little strange, but it needed to be done so it could be folded and presented in the proper way. That's the kind of thing you don't know unless you know people like Mr. Cole or Mr. McGarry, or you find out through experience. Then you say, “Okay, next time we can't do that.”

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

If you hadn't done a dry run, it might have caused an awkward moment there.

[Don Head]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Armstrong.

Mr. Thibeault has five minutes.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll start with the funeral directors, since I know you'll probably be the last people to ever let me down.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

I had to. I've been waiting so long to use that.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

[Scott MacLeod]

We've heard it before.

[Tony Pollard]

I haven't.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

We've been talking a lot about making sure the family is informed. The family really has the final say. You see it on TV, advertisements about funerals and being prepared for them. I don't know if every family wants to have that conversation yet. I don't know if we're there in terms of people wanting to talk about funerals, talk about death, all of that. I know 80 years from now, I don't know if any of us...well, we have a few MPs who may be around in our caucus—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

—but it's one of those things where you truly need to be flexible because things are changing. I've spoken with my wife and said that if I happen to kick the bucket over the next little while, I don't want a funeral. I would truly like to have a celebration. If my mother were around—she passed away a few years ago—she would not have had that. We would have had a funeral no matter what I said, but it's a celebration.

Interestingly enough, Ms. Lasher, I stumbled on an article in the Toronto Star from a few years back where you were quoted about hearing a motorcycle heading out of a chapel at the end of a service and that shocked you. At the same time, you recognized the need for flexibility.

Mr. Head, I like the way you described how we should be looking at the difference between a custom and a protocol, and looking at the definition. Do we need to have such strong flexibility, what we've been talking about, to ensure that the family's wishes are there, but at the same time do we need some protocol, that there's a phone book rather than a rule book as to who you can contact or who you follow up with to ensure that the protocol is being met, but that there's flexibility for the family? Would that be fair?

[Sue Lasher]

I've had experience with the Calgary Police Service. We've done many services for them. They definitely have a protocol they follow. I always feel just a little sorry for the family because it seems as if they get lost in it, and that's always been...I'm sorry, I'm a funeral director and that's where my heart is. That's what we've all been trying to convey here.

Definitely I think there is a difference between protocol and custom. I agree with the gentleman at the end of the table. A little flexibility needs to be there so that the family doesn't get lost.

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

That's very important. Thank you for that.

Mr. Cole, you look as if you're chomping at the bit to say something.

[Allan Cole]

I agree entirely that we have to maintain this level of flexibility. However, there are going to be some key elements such as the flag. What can we do with the flag? The following four points are ways in which you can celebrate a life lost with the presence of the Canadian flag, and here's how you can display it. Here's the method by which you can fold it and present it to the family. Whether you have cremated remains or remains in a full-sized casket, you would have honorary pallbearers. Where do they sit? When do they come into the event, be it religious or otherwise? Where would dignitaries sit, and in what order would they sit?

[Glenn Thibeault, NDP, Sudbury, ON]

Mr. Cole, I only have five minutes, so I'm sorry to.... What you're saying is we should be looking at updating some of the protocols we have, especially when we hear from all of you in relation to the problems we're having with nylon flags. So updating our current guides or our current, as I call it, phone book, rather than the rule book...having those updated I think is important, but again, the flexibility for families so that they don't get forgotten at the end of the day I think is truly important.

Mr. Cole, I thank you for all the fantastic work you've been doing in relation to the repatriation ceremonies. My community, and I think any community right across the country, has celebrated the lives of our soldiers who have given so much. It's been fantastic just to be able to be part of it and to see what you've done. So I tip my hat to you, and I'm sure on behalf of all of us we say thanks for that.

Jumping to you, Mr. Head, can you reiterate some of the differences you see between custom and protocol? Can you give an example of how you would see a protocol and a custom, and what shouldn't we be differentiating?

[Don Head]

I think protocol, as others have pointed out, would be involved for such things as how to deal with the flag, how to deal with the order of precedence. Those, to me, are protocols. Those are things that need to be respected. There needs to be a standard approach, and really there should be no deviation from that.

For customs there is flexibility. I think as some of the knowledgeable people around the table have indicated, if you have somebody of aboriginal ancestry who has passed away, right now there's really no place to go to look at how you incorporate that into a traditional kind of ceremony. Seeing that as a custom that respects the individual and respects the wishes or desires of the family would fall into that kind of category.

When I'm talking about customs, customs grow and change depending on the people of the day and the demographics of a community, and they reflect the needs at that time, but protocols are things that don't change. For me, anything that is related to national symbols or to orders of precedence should not change. To me, those truly reflect the Canadian way. This is a Canadian thumbprint on whatever approach or ceremony you're pursuing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Thibeault.

Mr. Calandra.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you.

I'm kind of hearing that those who interpret protocol don't want it written down and that those of you who are tasked to carry out the interpretation seem to benefit from certain written-down guidelines. That is the dilemma we are faced with.

There's no greater honour—it doesn't matter whether it's for a fallen soldier, somebody's grandparent, or whoever it is—than to be selected to carry out someone's last wishes. That has to be the biggest honour any of you could get. Doing it wrong when you have the ability to get it right doesn't fall upon the person who interpreted it. It falls upon you if you get it wrong.

Mr. Cole and Mr. McGarry—and all of you can comment—nobody in any way, shape, or form is suggesting that if basic principles are written down, anything becomes so rigid that you'd say, “Here's a state funeral. Take it or leave it.” None of us on this side are suggesting that in any way, shape, or form.

Mr. Cole, if we wrote anything down as a guideline, are you in any way suggesting that it couldn't be deviated from?

[Allan Cole]

It has to be deviated from in order to address the variety of needs we're faced with. Absolutely it has to have that degree of flexibility. As a professional I would say that we always consider any of these to be a zero-defect mission. We can't do it twice. There is no such thing as a practice run. It's once over the target, and it had better be perfect. We all strive to ensure that that's the reality. From time to time, something might go amiss, but, God willing, it's so minimal that it doesn't reflect on the overall dignity and respect afforded and paid to the individual.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Mr. McGarry.

[Brian McGarry]

I guess we're augmenting each other, but I'll just deal with state occasions for the moment. A state funeral takes on a personality of its own. You'd wonder how that would happen, but it does. We often have instructions long before the death. I'll give two examples—and I'm not betraying anything here, because this was well known by many.

Mr. Trudeau would never talk about his funeral. He said, “Figure it out.” Then Mr. Diefenbaker could hardly wait for his funeral to happen, quite frankly. He called it “Operation Hope Not”. With great respect, I'd say he kept Heritage Canada going for years, Actually, he was a very good friend of my mentor. One was one extreme and said, “Figure it out”, and the other said, “Here's what I want”, which was basically Winston Churchill's funeral.

That's what we want to do. We want to create a meaningful event that not only the deceased but the family want.

Protocol, then, does not dictate entirely. I gave the instance of the flag. That was a tough decision by everybody, but it went on and Canadians didn't get in a twist over it, really.

Funerals now really are celebrations of life in themselves. They differ widely. When Chief Justice Bora Laskin died—as we know, he was from the Jewish community—talk about getting something together quickly, because normally they like to have the funeral the very next day. The coordination there was extraordinary between all parties, including the family. We had a state funeral here and he was interred in Toronto the same day.

It involves cooperation. It involves communication, as was mentioned by one gentleman. Generally it comes out pretty well, but flexibility is the theme here today. It really is. We have to acknowledge that.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

I mean no disrespect to Mr. Thibeault, but I kind of worry about a phone-book approach. I suspect that the two of you would be quite busy if we created a guide of people you could call as opposed to a guide saying that this is how you would do it.

If we went down the road of creating or pulling together the armed forces or whoever, including the new traditions we have for repatriation, who else would we involve in bringing together a protocol? And how would we then ensure that it gets to everybody?

What suggestions do you have to make the Canadian Heritage website easier for people to actually use for this?

[Allan Cole]

Who would you consult? First off, there's an organization in Toronto called the Ontario Multifaith Council. Various religious groups come together to discuss areas of mutual concern. I don't know if that exists nationally, but consulting various faiths and cultural authorities to address the multitude of concerns they have when planning their funerals I think would be a good step.

I think you have a wealth of knowledge among the funeral directors of Canada that practise this day in and day out. Funeral directors cooperate readily with uniformed personnel, be they fire personnel or police services. I think there are a significant number of Canadians who have a great deal of expertise in this regard, and I think they could easily generate a group to discuss this and come up with a consolidated program.

In terms of how to put it on the website and make it easy to read, having various options in point form I think would be perfect, because in all likelihood, as we've found with funeral services, this information may well be required on a Saturday afternoon in Prince George, British Columbia.

I didn't clearly understand what the phone-book approach meant. We want something we can refer to, in areas of Canada where there aren't experts readily available to interpret what should normally happen, so that we can put it into practice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Calandra.

That concludes this part of our meeting.

I want to thank all of our witnesses. Your information was very varied today. It was wide-ranging, but that's the nature of this study. I appreciate your taking the time to be here, and we look forward to the report of this committee on this issue.

We're going to suspend for a couple of minutes, and then we go in camera to discuss Mr. Nantel's motion.

[Proceedings continue in camera]