Canadian Heritage Committee on April 10th, 2014

[John Weston, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Hear, hear!

Mr. Rheault, did you want to add anything?

[Pierre-Daniel Rheault]

As I briefly said earlier, we have to educate young people. They are like sponges. They will accept the model proposed to them without questioning it. We cannot go to high schools and tell the students that what they have been doing for 10 years is wrong.

They should be accustomed to that approach, just like they accustomed us to recycling. You can no longer put an empty tin can into the garbage without a youngster in the kitchen saying:

“No, no, no Dad, don't do that, put it in the recycling bin.”

It's a matter of habit.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Okay. Thank you very much.

We'll move to Ms. Mathyssen for seven minutes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for your testimony, it's been very enlightening, and we truly appreciate hearing the situation from the creators, from the musicians' point of view. I have to say that it's very consistent. What you have said this morning is very consistent with what we've been hearing since the beginning of this study, and that's in regard to it being more and more difficult for artists and musicians and producers to earn a living from the incredible music that you create.

I'm very interested in asking, basically, three questions. I'm going to give them to you all at once, simply because I know that I'm going to run out of time and I want to hear from all of you.

First and foremost, you talk about the transformation of the distribution of music and how difficult that has been for your members. In terms of our report, what are the most important recommendations that you would have for us to include in this report in that regard. Secondly, Mr. Tetreault, you talked about a number of very important things, the cuts to CBC and the impact that has on the creative process, and there are more coming today. It's going to be very difficult. As difficult as it's been, it's going to be more difficult.

You referenced the changes to employment insurance, and the fact that you, as representatives of your members as a bargaining unit, you need to be constantly worrying about better wages, medical benefits, the quality of life. You also referenced the Beijing treaty. Should we be pulling elements out of that treaty and including them in our report?

Finally, today, later on, we're going to be hearing from Live Nation and Ticketmaster and I'm wondering what questions you would like us to ask those two entities on your behalf. What do we need to know, and what are your concerns? What are your questions in that regard?

I know that I've given you a great deal, but I would truly appreciate as much response and feedback as you can manage.

[Pierre-Daniel Rheault]

If that's okay with you, I will first speak in French.

I have nothing against talking about Ticketmaster. That company follows a model we would like to refer to. They are not shy about doing things legally. They collect a fee on tickets they issue to us for concerts and plays. There was never a revolution or any riots with regard to that. You can see that the cost of purchasing those tickets online is sometimes fairly high.

In my opinion, too much thinking is being done for Canadians. They're being taken for simpletons. They are perfectly aware of the distinction between a tax and a tariff applied to a form of usage.

I am looking forward to hearing and reading what those people will say to you this afternoon.

What was the second point of your question?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In regard to Ticketmaster and Live Nation, I just wanted to know what we should be asking them on your behalf.

[Pierre-Daniel Rheault]

I will let Mr. Tetreault speak on my behalf, or Luc, maybe, will have ideas.

[Mark Tetreault]

It's interesting. In the symphonic world in Canada, a lot of orchestras are kind of taking the Ticketmaster model and are doing their own ticketing. My orchestra also sells its ticketing services to community arts organizations. So this has actually turned out to be another stream of revenue for orchestras, which is very helpful.

In regard to the World Intellectual Property Organization, our concern has been that moneys are collected around the world for broadcasts of our performances, and they're not being distributed to the musicians. In our case, it's because of the complications of the process. If you want to be compensated for a recording, you have to be able to list every musician who was on a particular track, and when you have the whole orchestra.... We have two principle oboes, two principle bassoons, etc. Who played on that recording? Were people sick? Were there extras in? It's a nightmare. The record-keeping at the time the recordings were made was not sufficient to meet the requirements to get the money. So it sits there uncollected, and that's very disturbing.

We also like the fact that the treaty protects our music from being used for nefarious purposes or to represent ideas we don't subscribe to or believe in.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Would you like to see that included in a report?

[Mark Tetreault]

I would like to see the government sign and ratify the WIPO treaty, which is pending.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay, thank you.

Monsieur Fortin, you said that creators are at the end of the remuneration of the moneys that come from—

[Luc Fortin]

I gave a good example of musicians being paid after the costs have been covered by sales. In other words, artists start getting paid once the production costs have been recovered through sales. Unfortunately, albums are not sold very much today. Major album sales are more rare.

The Quebec market is special. The francophone market is a bit more restrictive, and it is mainly made up of independent companies. Major companies are not involved in production in Quebec. Local Quebec producers are mainly trying to branch out to all of francophonie, France, and so on. Albums with high sales are fairly rare. They often don't even break even. So artists virtually never receive royalties, and that's totally unacceptable.

Another point I wanted to stress is that it's absolutely important that, in anything to do with government subsidies for production companies, evidence be provided that artists have been paid according to the standards set by their associations. It currently cannot be shown, beyond a reasonable doubt, that everyone is being paid according to the best practices, the set standards and the collective agreements that provide a social safety net and protection. I think that is a very important issue.

A creator who applies for a grant must justify all their spending without exception—including plane tickets, music lessons, and taxi and studio costs. I think the same standard should apply to all producers. They should justify all the wages and social benefits provided. They should also submit copies of contracts they have with artists' associations. I think that's very important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you.

Mr. Dion, you have seven minutes.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Rheault, I think you correctly identified the issue in the beginning. If the government were to double its assistance, the amount would go from $1,000 to $2,000. If it tripled it, the amount would be $3,000. I don't see how the government could be convinced to triple its funding in any area right now. So other mechanisms should be identified. Right?

Mr. Tetreault, you mentioned the Beijing treaty. How many countries ratified it; how many implemented it; what did it change concretely; and in what way is it different from what we have here in Canada?

[Mark Tetreault]

I don't know the answers to how many countries have ratified it. It was a treaty that was put together fairly recently. I believe that much of the ratification process is still in process in the various countries, as it is in Canada.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Okay, but if it was implemented, what would it change concretely? What would we do differently? What would that mean for the policies of this government?

[Mark Tetreault]

I think it would give an ability to make sure that the royalties are distributed and not held by the various organizations. It would help—I don't know that the government plays an active role in distributing these things, but it would provide a framework so that we would be able to monitor distribution and have a dispute resolution format that currently doesn't exist.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Do you know if the government is planning to ratify it or not?

[Mark Tetreault]

I do not know.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

You did not ask.

[Mark Tetreault]

My expertise is in the symphony orchestra. I was given this to present.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Maybe Mr. Dykstra will give us the answer later.

Mr. Fortin talked about levies. Mr. Tetreault and Mr. Rheault, do you agree with this idea of levies?

[Pierre-Daniel Rheault]

Absolutely.

[Mark Tetreault]

I definitely agree with royalties on broadcast and recordings.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Perhaps I could ask Mr. Fortin to tell us exactly how that would work.

Mr. Fortin, did you hear me?