Environment Committee on May 29th, 2012

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests for coming this afternoon.

I have one round of questioning this afternoon. I have a few questions. If you can make your answers precise, it will help me a bit.

My first question is to you, Ms. Sheppard, and it's on land trusts.

Right now we have in our country a generational shift happening whereby assets are passed down to the next generation. A lot of those assets, of course, are natural land. What I'm sensing is that the generation taking over those properties would like to have some sort of format for keeping them in pristine condition.

That being said, what does the federal government have now or what should it have to help that process, through either tax incentives or tax credits or some sort of...? We often see education trusts and such things, but is there something more concrete that should be done to help families go through this and have something available?

[Margo Sheppard]

Well, as recently as seven or eight years ago, I could donate the painting hanging behind me to a gallery and get a tax receipt, but if I donated the land that's depicted in the picture, I had to pay capital gains on it. So the federal eco-gifts program is an excellent program that facilitates the donation of ecologically sensitive lands for enhanced tax benefits. We would like to see that program continue.

The habitat stewardship program for species at risk is also an excellent program that has enabled land trusts across Canada to acquire and steward habitat for endangered species. It has been one of the major sources of funding for land acquisition, and sources of funding for land acquisition are few and far between in this country.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

You were talking mostly about sensitive areas and species, but what about raw, natural land? Would it fall into that category too?

[Margo Sheppard]

Well, I think that—

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Or is it all sensitive?

[Margo Sheppard]

—each land trust has its own criteria, and those criteria reflect the values of the volunteers who operate the land trust as an incorporated, non-profit, charitable organization.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you.

My next question is directed to the two chiefs.

I am from Cape Breton, and our fastest-growing community is Eskasoni. It's the largest first nation community in Atlantic Canada. Every time I go there, their biggest concern is land: they don't have enough land. Of course everybody knows why. Years ago, when the Europeans gobbled up the land, they put them on a small piece of land, and sometimes it was not the best piece of land.

That being said, we're also well aware of Donald Marshall, who was from Cape Breton. The court ruling allowed the first nations people to have greater access to resources.

But still there's a problem here. Yes, you're still on the same piece of land, and you can go get the resources, but you talked about your people being first stewards of the land, and that they have the feel of the land. I visited a grade eight class in Eskasoni last week. They were getting into computers, and they're keeping their first language, which is good, but I'm wondering if your community is teaching them enough about being the future stewards of the land. For instance, if these land trusts are available and they need people to manage them, understand them, or even take part ownership, are they prepared well enough to be the new stewards of the land?

[Chief Betty Ann Lavallée]

As a matter of fact, we are, throughout this region and in New Brunswick. I was part of the conservation board, as the chief in New Brunswick, before I went to Ottawa. I did work with the committee to save Musquash and to put into place the management area for fisheries in the Bay of Fundy. I know that my colleagues here in Nova Scotia are doing the same thing.

Yes, we're teaching our children off the reserve. Every three years, with the funding we receive from Environment Canada, we host the youth for a three-day colloquium. The last one we held in Cornwallis. All they do for three days is focus on environmental issues and traditional issues. It's through Iqaluit, our MAARS program through DFO. The three organizations, the three maritime provinces—New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and P.E.I.—the three off-reserve councils bring the youth from each council over. They get credit in their schools for it, a science credit. We've made arrangements with the schools to get that science credit.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Very good.

I'll ask questions to you....

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Chief Dwight Dorey, National Vice-Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples]

Mr. Eyking, I might just add to that.

This land trust issue for conservation easements apparently is fairly new. But I guess, technically speaking, when you look at the reserve system in this country, that was the original land trust idea, which hasn't worked very well, and you've noted that.

Betty Ann and I have recently been engaged in dialogue with the federal government, with the Prime Minister directly, about issues respecting the Indian Act and the abolishment of it, the amendment of it, and things like that. It's pretty obvious that, for various reasons, the Indian Act is not going to be abolished any time soon, but I think it is time for revisions to it, some of which are already being undertaken.

I think it's time to take another look at this whole notion of land trusts. And more effectively, as it relates to some of the conversations going around this table in regard to not only conservation, which is extremely important, but as the discussion was going here today, I'm already visualizing a new concept of land trusts for first nations, aboriginal people, Métis, off-reserve people like our constituents, for economic benefit as well.

I believe the way is to engage people in dialogue. As you indicated, it's time to start getting information out, suggestions, and recommendations from a committee such as this, going into Parliament, to seriously look at new ways of doing old things that were not working.

So I really like this notion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

The time's expired.

Madam Liu, cinq minutes.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thanks to all the witnesses for coming.

I'd like to direct my first question to Chief Lavallée.

You spoke about the need to integrate traditional knowledge into an NCP. It's something we heard from Shawn Atleo as well, who met with the committee on this study. On a very concrete or practical level, what would this look like?

[Chief Betty Ann Lavallée]

We're consistently doing it now. As I said, we have three individuals who are sitting on NACOSAR. One of them is a scientist, Dr. Donna Hurlburt, plus two community people. We also have people sitting on the species at risk committee. We do a lot of consultation with our elders to identify the various species that are at stake. As I said, we do a lot of dialogue. That's how we address the issues through these committees. We do it at the local, regional, national, and international levels.

We've been able to produce some beautiful posters and some booklets, through collaboration with our elders in our communities. I was going to bring some, but I didn't think you would want to lug them around, so I will send them over to the committee for you to see. It shows you the amount of work that we have put into working with the various departments.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thanks.

I like the way you mention the idea of the future generations, the seven generations.

We also know sustainable development has been something that's been enshrined in Canadian law, such as the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act. It's been defined as developing for the needs of today's generation in a way that would allow future generations to also meet their needs.

Do you think that sustainable development, defined as such, should be a guiding principle for an NCP?

[Chief Betty Ann Lavallée]

It's going to have to be. I mean, you've got to find a balance. You can't go from one extreme to another. There's got to be a balance. We can't expect people today to be unemployed or to live in poverty. We've already got enough people in poverty. We have to find a way we can work together, set the rhetoric aside, and look at what's best for that community. You've got to engage that community, that's the primary thing, right there. You've got to look at their whole social economic situation. You've got to look what's going to happen in the future. If people are giving the information, without fear, and have good common sense, I think it's achievable.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Ms. Fuller, what should the government's conservation priorities be, in terms of species and territories? Should we be focusing on remote regions or developed regions, and should we be focusing more on restoration or protection? Obviously both are important, but what should we be focusing on as a priority?

[Susanna Fuller]

I would get back to the target and timeline, and I would look at a bit of a risk assessment. I don't think you can do one or the other; I think you need to do both. As well, I think we need to take into consideration how we are working now, particularly from the marine perspective. We have a way of identifying key areas that should be protected. We have a framework to do that. They include the areas that need to be restored and the areas that should be protected.

What I would do is have a five-year plan that really looks at the low-hanging fruit, so that we have some progress. Get the most at-risk areas or species that need to be dealt with and that are providing important ecosystem services we can achieve success with. I would do that from a species basis and also a spatial protection basis. You can set yourself up for failure otherwise. But if there is a risk assessment and we do those things that are most at risk, then the things that can be protected, and then move to the more difficult ones next, that would be the most realistic and practical way to go about it. Perhaps it’s not the most ideal, but I'm trying to be practical.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

What measures should the government take to diminish the impact of aquaculture on marine ecosystems?

[Susanna Fuller]

Let's put it in closed containment. We know that works.

We know it's difficult. The profit margins aren't 50%; they're probably 5% to 30%. In Nova Scotia, we have some of the world's leading closed containment operations. In Debert at Millbrook First Nation they're doing an excellent job of farming Arctic char. There are ways of scaling that up. We know that retailers are interested in this.

Closed containment gives us something to do while we're trying to figure out how to mitigate open net-pen aquaculture. We don't know how to mitigate it right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Your time has expired, Ms. Liu. Thank you.

Mr. Lunney, you'll close us up. You have five minutes.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Sheppard, one of your first recommendations for the Canadian Land Trust Alliance was the establishment of a cost-shared stewardship endowment fund, which could be accessed by the conservation community to ensure protected lands are managed and maintained in perpetuity.

Now, if I understood you correctly, you said something to the effect that it would be managed like a PPP and funds could be accessed by local groups. Could you expand on that concept for us? What exactly do you envisage?

[Margo Sheppard]

Part of being a landowner and a good steward is having funds to basically keep your lights on, your fences mended, your neighbours happy, and your trails maintained, if they're there.

The major hurdle for land trusts in acquiring land through donation, direct acquisition, or conservation easement is acquiring the funds, along with the land interest, to actually manage that land for the long term. Any responsible land trust must fund-raise and acquire these funds, which are costed out based on what the land is going to require over a 20-year timeframe, and then one legal challenge every 20 years, amortized backwards, and put that in the bank at the same time as the title is transferred.

It is my understanding that the arts community has established, with the government and private corporations, a form of arts endowment, which enables galleries to apply to secure funds for the long-term stewardship and conservation of artworks, be they paintings or sculptures. What we are suggesting is that a similar consideration be done for the actual lands that are conserved through the private sector, that being land trusts and allied organizations, so that they are able to apply to secure funds for management activities.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you for that.

As a follow-up on that, you mentioned the ecological gifts program and the habitat stewardship program. In budget 2007 some $225 million was put forward. It leveraged other funds from organizations, including some of your members—Ducks Unlimited, Nature Trust, Nature Conservancy, and so on—to purchase and acquire ecologically sensitive funds. Some of that money is still actually being utilized, the end of that fund. Is that a concept that could be expanded or utilized? Did that model work, as far as you're concerned, or for your member organizations?

[Margo Sheppard]

That was a wonderful program. Did it work for our organizations? I would say there were mixed results.

The Nature Conservancy, God bless them—we love them—were able to put the funds to work for their priorities and for their projects. I am so happy they are in the Atlantic provinces, frankly. Certain land trusts could access the funding, but I would say that a future program of similar or larger scope would be much better if it enabled local organizations, those whose priorities did not necessarily include those of the Nature Conservancy, to actually exercise some of their local strategic planning priority areas in terms of securement.

This is why I suggested that the Land Trust Alliance, the umbrella group, is a possibility for delivering something that actually taps into the 100-plus land trusts that exist across the country and our grassroots volunteer organizations within communities that aren't necessarily overlapping with Nature Conservancy priorities.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Okay. Thank you for that.

Ms. Fuller, you mentioned the Colin Stewart Forest Forum, the collaboration, and your success with that. Could you just briefly give us a description of what you accomplished with that program?