Evidence of meeting #8 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Lise St-Denis NDP Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Does the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act generally cover water purification projects in the areas that are furthest away from Canada's large centres?
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association
For major expansions of treatment plants, usually there is a federal trigger, which can be through different processes, such as if the project involves an impact on federal lands, if a project is receiving infrastructure funding from the federal government, and if there is the need for permits, either through the Fisheries Act or for the Navigable Waters Protection Act. It really depends on where the project is located in Canada and the type of potential impacts the project may have.
As my colleague said, when our members are looking at these projects, it's generally a long-term planning process. It takes 10 to 15 years to site a new waste water treatment plant, design it, build it, and operate it. When they engage consulting firms to do this sort of work, they're always looking as far in advance as possible at all the preferred alternatives. If there are triggers under the federal act, will they have to do a harmonized federal-provincial EA? Again, it depends on where the projects are located, the receiving waters impacted, etc.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Lise St-Denis NDP Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Why did Quebec not sign the harmonization agreements?
You said that Quebec was the only province that did not sign the harmonization agreements between the federal and provincial governments and your organization. What were the reasons for that?
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association
That was before my time, and I do believe the reasons were quite political between the federal government and the Government of Quebec at the time. I wouldn't presume to provide any commentary on why there was no signing of the environmental accord at the time.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Lise St-Denis NDP Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
I'll ask the question.
How can we use the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act to force the federal government to respect the international environmental commitments made by prior governments?
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association
Sorry. I didn't quite get the question.
11:45 a.m.
Executive Director, Sierra Club of Canada
She asked me.
I'd actually say that it would be your job. The only way to force a government to honour international treaties is for that government to be honourable with the international community and for members of Parliament to continue to raise the issue that Canada is in violation of a binding international agreement. We are in violation of the Kyoto Protocol and even the biodiversity agreement. We're ignoring that.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa
Unfortunately, time is up, Mr. Bennett.
Thank you very much. Next on this seven-minute round is Ms. Ambler for seven minutes.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for appearing here today.
My questions are for Ms. Jackson and Ms. Schwartz.
As you're no doubt aware, CEAA currently uses the “all in unless” approach. This means that projects are automatically subject to environmental assessments unless otherwise stated in regulations or legislation. An alternative approach used in many provinces and other countries is the list approach, which involves listing the projects that are subject to environmental assessments. Which approach do you prefer, the list approach or the “all in unless” approach?
Go ahead.
11:50 a.m.
Representative, Canadian Electricity Association, and Director, Environmental Services, Nova Scotia Power Inc.
The legislation in Canada, in the provinces, has matured over the last 10 to 20 years. CEA first initiated filling a broad mandate, but the legislation provincially now has the approach where there's a specific list, normally with a higher threshold for the triggers, because that's the intent of the assessment provincially. There are permit processes that exist.
The same is true federally. There are normally permit processes for many of the departments. But the assessment triggers are so low that they invoke the environmental assessment process very early on and take it into the domain of that level of detail that often is best left for permit-level discussions.
We're a strong advocate of revisiting the approach, and we would prefer to see it more project-specific so that the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act can play its part and other pieces of federal and provincial legislation can play their part. Together they can create a comprehensive but more efficient system for dealing with the review of projects.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Representative, Canadian Electricity Association, and Director, Environmental Services, Nova Scotia Power Inc.
Yes, we would prefer the provincial style, with a list for larger projects or projects with larger potential for impact. That assessment would be directed there to be most efficient.
11:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association
There are lists at the federal level. There's the law list regulation.
To answer your question, we really think the provincial and federal environmental assessment legislation should mirror each other. That may mean that it looks duplicative. For example, we think the federal process should incorporate an assessment of need and alternatives to process, but in doing so the federal government and the CEA Agency may not get all the answers to their initial questions. The questions that are posed from the responsible federal authorities are extremely detailed and time consuming.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association
In the process itself, the questions and expectations for answers are extremely detailed. While we recognize the importance of those questions, we would also want the CEA agency to take a lead role in saying, “We need to keep on going. You need to accept that there is a preferred option on the table.” The answers to those questions may come later in detailed engineering design work. It's not realistic to--
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association
--up front. Due to costs, any proponent for a major project will not want to do detailed design work for more than one alternative.
We want the CEA Agency to kind of review the extent of the information, ask up front, and then take a lead role in saying, “Yes, we understand you need the information, but that detailed information will come later in the process.” It can come later in the process.
We've seen in the city of Ottawa, in a non-water and waste water context, how that can work, with the north-south light rail transit proposal. That project received federal environmental assessment, with the understanding that the detailed permit-type questions would be answered further on in the process. They got their federal EA approval, and then the city cancelled the project. But that was one example of where the CEA Agency took a really forward-thinking approach to the problem.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
So currently in the system the process does allow for that on a project-by-project basis.
Was the Ottawa project cancelled because of delays?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association
No. It was nothing like that--totally unrelated.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Okay, just checking.
On that matter, would you say that the detailed questions are often not related specifically to the environment?
11:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association
I wouldn't say that. They're definitely related to the environment.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Do they sometimes get into the more business-related aspects of a project--more of the socio-economic impact? Do you ever find that?