Environment Committee on June 17th, 2013

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Ms. Lucas, my question put to Ms. Woodley and Mr. Butler was whether you would characterize this legislation as having a net gain for the ecological integrity of Sable Island park.

[Zoe Lucas]

Yes, it does.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much.

We'll move now to Ms. Leslie for seven minutes.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to all the witnesses for being here and helping us work through this legislation.

I know this legislation and the issue of Sable Island is important to all of you. I also know that you have either read the transcript of our last committee meeting, or you tuned in live, or you read the speeches in the House. I know you're very well acquainted with what we've been discussing both at committee and in the House. I know that you also know that the NDP does have some issues with the legislation. As Mark Butler of the Ecology Action Centre pointed out, we are in a situation where we are having to make a choice. Do we pass this bill and ensure that protection of Sable Island? I guess the other choice is we don't pass it.

We weren't a part of the discussions for the MOU, for example. We weren't a part of making this deal.

I'll start by saying our preference is no exploration on the island, and we have an amendment to that effect. We'll see if it passes. At the very least, I think it's important to define what low-impact exploration is, because there is no definition in the offshore accord act or in the parks act. I was pleased to hear that the province supports that as well.

Minister Preyra, have you any other words of assurance that this is a good way to go for the province? There is a problem here with needing mirror legislation.

[Leonard Preyra]

There's no question about it, and if you don't mind, Mr. Chair, I'll give a little longer answer.

I think one of the things we need to remember is that these licences preceded the creation of this park, which puts us in an unusual situation. Our understanding is, and as Mr. Pinks has repeated, currently the board has the authority to make these decisions without any other regulation. Directives have been issued on environmental assessments, but the board has the authority. Significant improvements are being made here that will set parameters around the board's decision-making. There will be consultation between the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board and Parks Canada, and Parks Canada has a very strong tradition of environmental conservation and stewardship. There will be commitment to developing a draft definition of protocol. That protocol will be put out for consultation among the stakeholders.

I talked in my presentation about how extraordinary the passion is among the stakeholders, among the public, as it relates to Sable, and I pity anyone who engages in that kind of consultation and expects to get an outcome that will do any harm to Sable. Of course coming out of that, there will be a mechanism under which the accord act will give effect to it through regulation, or directives, or guidance, or through an MOU. When we talk about exploration, we don't know what it will mean, but I can guarantee that going through that process we will end up with something very close to what even some of the critics are calling for in terms of low impact.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

We've had a lot of talk about precedent, and my colleague Ms. Duncan put some pointed questions to Parks Canada about the precedent that this may or may not create. One way that I've been thinking about it is it's not that a park is being created with oil and gas just outside the boundaries, it's that we're creating a park in a gas field, which has a lot of challenges, but is ultimately a good thing.

Mr. Barry, let's just say for argument's sake the bill passes and we create a park so that piece is done. I recognize that you don't represent all industry, but do you think that industry would be open to continue discussions about the one nautical mile limit and possible expansion, or about surface exploration? Do you think that conversation could continue?

[Andrew Barry]

Yes, I think as you look back at the activities we have had there, the Sable project is a shining example of the cooperation and ability to produce oil and gas effectively in close proximity to the island. We've been doing that for many years very successfully.

The issue we have in front of us at the moment is that clearly, when you talk about removing the opportunity to do directional drilling or do drilling underneath the island, that is removing the opportunity to develop the resource as such.

We firmly believe that—

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Sorry, but could you explain that a bit? I'm not sure I follow.

[Andrew Barry]

If you remove the opportunity to drill underneath the island, you remove the opportunity to develop that resource.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

In its entirety?

[Andrew Barry]

When you say “in its entirety”, and you think about the resource and the gas field that is underneath the island, to be able to access that gas field you essentially need to drill into the appropriate location that might be under the island. Now, the exact location of that is unknown at this stage.

We know today the development is not economic, but we don't know what it might be in the future. When you talk about drilling wells underneath the island, it's important to recognize that the location of these wells is two kilometres to three kilometres underneath the surface of the island. So we're not drilling a couple of metres off the surface; it's very deep. Depending on where you need to access the resource to effectively develop it, it depends greatly on how it's all made up.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Okay. I was actually going to ask about the directional drilling piece to the CNSOPB, because a lot of people are contacting us saying, “What? You're going to support a bill that allows drilling under Sable Island?”

What would you say to Canadians who are concerned about horizontal directional drilling? How do we reassure people? One reassurance is that this is.... How far below did you say it was?

[Andrew Barry]

It's two or so kilometres below the surface of Sable Island, so it's very deep.

[Stuart Pinks]

It might even be a little bit deeper than that. It's two kilometres at the shallowest. There are three fields that sit under Sable Island. There's Olympia West Sable...there are two west Sable fields. The numbers I have for the three fields are anywhere from two kilometres to five kilometres underneath.

[Andrew Barry]

There's no activity happening close to the surface of the island. We can confidently say there won't be any impact on the surface of the island as we drill two kilometres to five kilometres underneath the island.

[The Chair, Conservative, Harold Albrecht]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move now to Mr. Woodworth, for seven minutes.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to all of the witnesses, including those joining us by teleconference.

There are a couple of things I'd like to clarify, and I'll begin with the question of drilling. As I understand it, this bill and the agreement it formalizes prohibit any surface drilling on Sable Island.

I'll direct my question to Mr. Pinks. Am I correct in that understanding?

[Stuart Pinks]

It would prohibit any drilling of a well on Sable Island—

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Okay. That's partly what I wanted to get at.

[Stuart Pinks]

—in the exclusion zone.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Are there other kinds of drilling that may occur other than drilling for a well?

[Stuart Pinks]

Not in the same context of what you're using. You have the possibility of collecting geotechnical-type samples. You're probably there with a shovel and a spade, or you might have a hand auger or something like that to collect some samples, but it's not the drilling that you're thinking of, with a drilling unit that's drilling kilometres down under the surface.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

If I were to be talking of exploratory drilling, that could be just with a hand auger. That might be considered exploratory drilling.

[Stuart Pinks]

Exploratory drilling is defined in the act as exploratory drilling of a well that is for hydrocarbons.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That would be prohibited under the terms of this act and the agreement.