Evidence of meeting #28 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technology.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Labrie, you talked about the four recommendations that you are making to government. Have you estimated the fiscal impact of those recommendations to government?
4:15 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Government Affairs and Communications, Enerkem
The first one is about stimulating cleantech innovation. I think the expert in this is probably Céline Bak from Analytical Advisors. She has been following the sector for more than five years.
I think the return on job creation is enormous. In terms of the export potential, it's also great. So the idea of stimulating private investment so that our innovations go beyond the R and D level and actually become commercial and generate the revenues, I think we can actually see that happen. If it stays at the R and D level, it does not create the jobs so the returns aren't there directly.
If I look at the 10¢ per litre, I think we've estimated that would be about $5 million to $8 million—
4:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
Less than that based on current production....
4:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
That's $5 million to $8 million based on current production.
4:15 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Government Affairs and Communications, Enerkem
Per year.
4:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
But that is based on creating an acceptable market for foreign investors to come and infuse their capital into Canada to attract investment for the future.
4:15 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Government Affairs and Communications, Enerkem
And on retaining that biofuel so that we can generate the reductions here in GHGs rather than in the U.S....
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
Ms. McClenaghan, you made the comment that you and your organization do not support producing energy from waste. Why have you come to that conclusion?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director and Counsel, Canadian Environmental Law Association
No, what I was trying to communicate is that it is not a black and white question. There are many kinds of energy from waste that we do support.
What we don't support is incineration of domestic garbage. Some of the technologies that my friends have been describing are things we would support. I'm not sure if they all are, to be honest, because we'd have to look at the specific technology. But the general point of following the hierarchy of reusing, reducing, recycling, I think I have heard the other speakers support that as well. I gave you some examples of some types of energy from waste that we definitely do support because of the co-benefits. For example, Mr. Thurlow's description of the restaurant waste would absolutely be something we support.
June 10th, 2014 / 4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Mr. Thurlow, I was very interested in your comments and Ms. Labrie's as well on how far cellulosic ethanol has come in the last few years. The last time I had been involved with this, just peripherally, the technology was a long way off. So from what you've just described, there have obviously been dramatic improvements in the production of ethanol from cellulose.
Can you talk about what's been happening in the last few years?
4:20 p.m.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
I'll talk very generally. With Enerkem coming online, we now have a globally competitive commercial-scale waste to biofuel facility, the first one around the world.
I know that DuPont and POET will be opening cellulosic facilities this summer in the United States. That's technology that will be exported around the world as well.
Like any technology you can't just invent it. You have to run it through the rigours that Marie-Hélène described in terms of making sure that your scale-up is appropriate. The reality is that what happened in the first decade of this century was that there was a whole bunch of people that had a lot of really great ideas and then the global economy crashed, so venture capital tightened up incredibly quickly and they did not have the money made available so that they could advance those technologies. Now the economy is starting to pick up and there is a market for these products, as Marie-Hélène described, both in the United States and in other parts of the world. So you're going to see those technologies move forward.
But you are absolutely correct. A lot of those what I'll call “unproven technologies” have gone to the wayside and you now have true industry visionaries like Enerkem, DuPont, POET, GreenField Specialty Alcohols, ICM technologies, that are all able to create a cellulosic product that is cost-competitive with other products in the marketplace.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
How does the development of shale gas in North America and indeed around the world, which has significantly dropped the price of natural gas worldwide, affect your industry?
4:20 p.m.
Senior Vice-President, Government Affairs and Communications, Enerkem
I guess it's cheaper for us, given that this is one of the sources of energy we use even though an important part of our process is energy self-sufficiency. But we're not competing with natural gas as we are really producing a replacement for gasoline instead of producing electricity. So it's not the same as you find with biogas production, which is competing with natural gas. We are really in the fuel space, so we are not competing with natural gas. It does not really impact our industry.
4:20 p.m.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
I'll put my corn ethanol hat back on for a second and say that the crush margin for ethanol is very tightly linked to the prices of commodities. The availability of more energy is overall a good thing.
I'll switch hats back again and say that those variables for that cost competitiveness.... I mean, ultimately the goal of renewable fuels is to reduce the impact on the environment. We have a challenge where the availability of the cheaper petroleum product to fuel our plants does an end run around some of the environmental benefits that may accrue through the advanced use of our product.
It's something that we watch very closely. The first website I go to every morning is the Chicago Board of Trade's to find out what the various prices are—and to find out who will be mad at me and call me to fix those things, which I can't do, despite what they may believe. But it is absolutely something that we're watching.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB
One thing I'm very interested in, although this is a little bit off topic, is the fact that in Canada there's a lot of fragile land that is currently being farmed. What's exciting about cellulosic ethanol is that producing ethanol from grass that can be sown on fragile land will have incalculable conservation benefits.
Have you been talking to the agricultural industry about those developments in the future?
4:20 p.m.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
Absolutely we have.
First, let me put out clearly, for the record, that soil organic carbon, and making sure that level is maintained in a way that's good for the environment, is incredibly important. Our partnership with farmers as the stewards of the nitrogen, the phosphorous, and the carbon that go back into the soil is incredibly important. They have done a fantastic job, over generations, of preserving the soil organic content of that.
On the marginal lands/fragile lands question, absolutely; if there is an opportunity to grow specific purpose-grown crops that will revitalize those lands and contribute to the economy at the same time, we're very much in support of that. It's fantastic work.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
4:20 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
“I have some marginal land for you”, I think is what he's saying.
Mr. Thurlow, your second point had to do with measuring GHGs. You say there's in the order of a 60% reduction in GHGs.
If you have to measure it, don't you have to cost it? As far as I know, there's no costing mechanism to GHGs. Are you recommending that the Government of Canada cost GHGs?
4:25 p.m.
President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
What we've done is we've recommended that all governments, federal and provincial, find a mechanism that will allow for the recognition of the GHG reductions that accrue through the use of our fuels. Not all petroleum-based fuels have the same GHG impact. Not all renewable content fuels have the same GHG impact.
We look at these fuels from a life-cycle basis. My friends in Toronto said cradle to cradle; it's well to wheel in our industry. We absolutely would like to see mechanisms put in place that will ensure a fair value for those GHG reductions, because—
