Evidence of meeting #28 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was andrews.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Well, then, I will....

Again, I think these are relevant issues that will have to be addressed further down so that we're not seeing that this is just an attempt by the Conservatives to change the channel and go on a partisan witch hunt against one poor staffer who's now been fired and the party has apologized for.

I would say that the issue of both Twitter and Facebook would be a fair amendment. Otherwise, we'd be seen to unfairly separate Twitter and its 140 characters versus Facebook. They're both apps that are allowed under the House of Commons; we're not allowed a whole manner of other apps. I'd like my apps on the Montreal Canadiens or the Toronto Maple Leafs, but I can't download it on my cellphone. I can download Facebook.

My wife says I spend way too much time on Facebook. She would prefer it wasn't on my phone. She thinks I have a problem with my obsession with Facebook.

We might have to deal with that at some point in our committee, Madam Chair, but I don't think that's relevant for today.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Further down we'll do another study.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Yes; we'll do that as a separate study.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

My wife will testify as well.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

If we had to go and testify before our wives, Mr. Del Mastro, we would probably be in pretty rough water.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Jean Crowder

Please address your remarks through the chair. Thank you.

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I'm sorry, Madam Chair. I would really not want to involve you in any discussion between me and my wife and Mr. Del Mastro's wife regarding our obsessive use of Facebook. Especially coming home on Saturday morning and going on it before kissing the kids has caused me much grief that I'd like to confess right now. I feel it is something that.... Let that be a warning to all young political staffers out there. Before you move up into the political realm, do not become addicted. I think this is the danger.

Saying that, Madame Chair, I also think it is an issue in terms of the danger, the two-thumbs approach to blowing your political career apart in this realm we live in. Before, you actually had to go and type up a press release and then actually send it out on a fax machine. So usually sober second thought would intervene. I've seen too many people do too many dumb things, and sometimes they don't mean to.

Mr. Del Mastro and I were on a committee last year where people were tweeting in the committee and making comments. Both Mr. Del Mastro and I rose on points of privilege, on the issue that we have to show a certain level of respect to each other. Twitter makes it too easy to throw rocks. I have a deep concern about the rock-throwing ability in Twitter and the anonymity. I share that with Mr. Del Mastro. I do think it is an outrageous world we're living in. But I don't know.... And this is why I guess I go back to the point of Facebook and Twitter.

If don't know if there's a step back from this digital Rubicon that we've crossed. We live in a new world where every morning I wake up and I've got 30 people tweeting me, and some days six of them are sending me hate messages. In a previous world, if they phoned me at home and sent me a hate message on the phone, I could call the parliamentary precinct and say, "Hey, I'm getting phone messages from somebody in Regina who is sending me hate messages". On Twitter, it seems to be a different realm.

But I don't know, having crossed that digital Rubicon, whether that is again the purview of our committee. We have found a situation where we've opened a Pandora's box here and I'm suggesting to my colleagues that we need to be very prudent about this because it does go back to the issues of free speech. It does go back to the issues of open government.

If we are going to go down this road, which I firmly believe is not something we want to do, for the issues of the staffer who lost his job, that's something I feel, or for the minister who's been exposed because of a divorce and what happened to him. But then also it's about the general principle—this is what we're talking about—the general principle that in the digital realm staffers who will be on Twitter and on Facebook will be exposed.

Madame Chair, just before closing, I want to point out how dramatically the world has changed. Last week I was in Rome for the investiture of Cardinal Collins. I saw a Capuchin monk talking on a cellphone in the church, and I was astounded. I looked around me and I saw people twittering during mass, with the Pope sitting 15 feet from us. When I was young, if that happened to me, my mother would have smacked me so hard I would have been out, and the nuns would have smacked me. It would have been game over.

But here I was with all these pilgrims and they were all on Twitter and they were all texting each other that they were there at a mass. I was astounded by that, Madam Chair. I thought this is a whole different world from what we were in five or ten years ago, that the people at St. Peter's Basilica were not living in the moment. They were letting everybody know they were there.

I say, as a former altar boy, that's cool. I admit I took a few quick little video clips myself just to prove I was actually in the building. I think we've crossed the digital Rubicon. I don't think there's a way we can bring this back. I don't think we can put the genie back in the bottle. We don't put the lion back in the cage. It's the world we live in. We are going to be tested as parliamentarians in the coming years very sorely by the growing power of digital media to create campaigns, to intervene, to affect us. So we have to separate that.

This is why the issue of anonymous is a fair separation to go to the procedure and House affairs committee, but the issue of staffers making cracks or releasing information that might embarrass us, I don't think that's the purview. So if we're going to go down there, then I will support my honourable colleague and say that I think we're going to have to look at Facebook too. But I do that under the warning that I think we are going down a dangerous road. I'll leave that until we get to the next round.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Jean Crowder

Thank you, Mr. Angus.

Mr. Butt.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Madam Chair, I would move that we go into—

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Point of order.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Jean Crowder

Point of order, Mr. Andrews.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

It's just on the order of the speakers list. I thought Mr. Butt was on the speakers list to the original motion. I'm just trying to figure out how this works. Then when there's a subamendment, you get a speakers list for that. I just overheard you say that with a sub-subamendment, there's a speakers list for that. I raised my hand because I wanted to be on that. I don't know if I saw Mr. Butt raise his hand to be on any of these subamendments.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Jean Crowder

In fact he did.

You're correct that when the subamendment was proposed a new speakers list started. As people raised their hands to speak on the subamendment, the clerk recorded that. Mr. Del Mastro raised his hand but ceded his spot to Mr. Butt, who wished to speak. So the current list is Mr. Butt, Mr. Del Mastro, and Mr. Andrews.

Mr. Butt was in the process of moving a motion.

Noon

Conservative

Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

I move that the committee go in camera. I think it will be much more efficient for all of us.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Jean Crowder

I have a point of order from Mr. Angus.

Before I go to that point of order I will remind committee members that a motion to go in camera is not debatable.

Mr. Angus.

Noon

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

I see what's happening here.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Jean Crowder

Is this a point of order?

Noon

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Yes, it's about the use of going in camera. We were told that this was going to be in public. What we're seeing here is a kangaroo court.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Jean Crowder

Sorry, Mr. Angus, that's not a point of order; that's a matter of debate. The motion is not debatable.

Noon

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Point of order, Madam Chair.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Jean Crowder

Mr. Andrews.

Noon

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

During a previous committee meeting I asked to discuss, on a point of order, going in camera. I would like to refresh our memories one more time about going in camera at particular committee meetings.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Jean Crowder

Mr. Andrews, that sounds like debate. I have indicated that it's not a debatable motion. If you wish to challenge the ruling of the chair you're free to do that. The motion is not debatable.

We will now go to a vote.

Noon

NDP

Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC

I call for a recorded division, please.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Jean Crowder

You would like a recorded vote.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

[Proceedings continue in camera]