Evidence of meeting #24 for Finance in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was estimate.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kevin Page  Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Jason Jacques  Financial Advisor, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament
Sahir Khan  Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I call to order the 24th meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance. In our orders today, pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, March 3, 2010, we are continuing our study of Bill C-290, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (tax credit for loss of retirement income).

This afternoon we have a panel from 3:30 until 4:30 and then clause-by-clause consideration from 4:30 to 5:30.

I have two items I want to deal with at the beginning of the meeting. First of all, Monsieur Paillé would like the floor to present a motion.

Monsieur Paillé, s'il vous plaît.

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Daniel Paillé Bloc Hochelaga, QC

Mr. Chair, I want to move the following motion:That the Standing Committee on Finance congratulate two of its members who were recognized by their peers in the annual surveys conducted by Maclean's and L’Actualité magazines. Congratulations to Ms. Kelly Block, MP for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar who was named rising star, and to Mr. Ted Menzies, parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Finance, who was voted hardest working MP.

I have provided the text of the motion in both French and English.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Merci beaucoup.

All those in favour of the motion?

(Motion agreed to)

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Hear, hear!

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I see that it's unanimous.

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Merci beaucoup, monsieur Paillé. That's very kind of you.

Secondly, colleagues, you've just been given a budget that we do need approval for.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

I move the item, Mr. Chair.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

So moved by Mr. Wallace. All in favour?

(Motion agreed to)

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, colleagues.

For the first hour of discussion on this bill, we have with us the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Mr. Kevin Page. We also have three of his colleagues with us: Mr. Sahir Khan, Mr. Mostafa Askari, and Mr. Jason Jacques. Thank you for being with us.

As a committee, we also want to thank you for your letter and your work in costing out this private member's bill, particularly your letter of May 14, 2010. Thank you very much for doing that work on behalf of the committee. We certainly appreciate it.

Mr. Page, you have time for an opening statement regarding this bill, and then we'll have questions from members.

3:30 p.m.

Kevin Page Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Good afternoon.

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before you today. FINA members and parliamentarians in general have consistently referred interesting issues to my team, which has kept us busy and challenged.

I have a few brief introductory remarks I would like to make regarding my general process for preparing estimates of the proposed legislative amendments to the Income Tax Act and our specific review of Bill C-290.

Following this, I would be pleased to answer any questions members may have regarding the correspondence I sent to the committee chair on May 14 or any other issues.

I want to begin by outlining the general process by which we prepare cost estimates of legislative amendments to the Income Tax Act proposed by private members. Over the past year, we have received 15 requests and completed 4 cost estimates. All have followed the same general three-step approach.

Step 1 is to prepare terms of reference for the study, which specify timelines, resources and key assumptions to be used. These terms of reference are presented to the requesting parliamentarian or other interested Committee members for approval before any formal work begins.

Step 2 is to identify relevant data, research and expertise that can be used to determine how many taxpayers are currently eligible for the proposed legislative amendment, and how many taxpayers may be induced to change their behaviour to make themselves eligible.

The third step involves completing a reality check with people who actually work in the field and who are familiar with the policy area. After the calculations are completed and the draft report prepared, we then examine whether results are reasonable given what policy experts know about this domain.

For example, when I prepared a recent cost estimate regarding Bill C-466, the tax exemption for public transportation benefits, we benefited from the insight provided by U.S. firms that actually administer the proposed programs and indicated that, depending on how the legislation was worded, administration costs and adoption rates could vary widely. This is the type of real-world knowledge that is very relevant to preparing a cost estimate, but it's not typically collected in the data.

In the case of Bill C-290, we did not progress beyond step one, the preparation of the terms of reference. My staff met with several committee members shortly after receiving the request and completed a review of the cost estimates prepared by the Bloc Québécois and the government by early May.

At that time, it became evident that the divergence between the two cost estimates primarily related to differing legislative interpretations of Bill C-290. The Bloc Québécois believe it to be narrowly targeted, while the government believes it to have a wider application.

The government estimate assumes that all recipients of income from registered pension plans are eligible for a tax credit on pension income. In contrast, the legislative interpretation of the Bloc Québécois assumes that only retirees whose pension income has been reduced as a result of financial distress of the sponsoring firm are eligible for a tax credit on lost pension income.

After determining this, my staff asked the committee to clarify these assumptions and reach a common understanding of precisely which legislative proposal was to be costed. After waiting a week, we sent correspondence to the chair of the committee providing a preliminary assessment of the two cost estimates—$5 million per annum and approximately $10 billion per annum—and again highlighted the need to reach a common understanding regarding the legislative interpretation of Bill C-290 before moving forward with this request.

As noted in my correspondence of May 14, both estimates appear to be free of major errors. While a government estimate of $10 billion appears reasonable, given its assumptions, the Bloc Québécois estimate of $5 million may be near the low end of a range, based on their differing assumptions.

I would like to convey to committee members that we would look forward to continued work on a terms of reference for this request should members provide additional direction with respect to the legislative intent of Bill C-290.

I would be pleased to answer any questions Committee members may have regarding our process for preparing cost estimates of legislative amendments to the Income Tax Act or my preliminary analysis of Bill C-290.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

We will start with Mr. McKay.

Mr. McKay, please, for seven minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

That $5 million to $11 billion is a bit of a spread.

3:35 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Here's what I don't understand: what is a bankrupt plan or an insolvent plan? I know what a bankrupt corporation is. I know what an insolvent corporation is. The general definition is that they are unable to meet creditors' claims as they come due. Is that the same definition for a defined benefit plan?

3:35 p.m.

Jason Jacques Financial Advisor, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

That's essentially correct. It is essentially a similar definition, where the assets within the plan are unable to actually meet the accrued benefits payable to the beneficiaries of the plan, both the retired members and the current active members.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

The problem of that plan, then, is that a state of insolvency, of incapacity to meet one's obligations as they come due, bounces around like a yo-yo on a defined benefit plan, frequently dependent on the state of interest rates and the state of the stock market. It seems to me that this is quite problematic when trying to predict whether you can cover off the costs of Bill C-290. Is that fair?

3:35 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Kevin Page

I'll start, and Jason can add to it.

Based on the survey data we have, or data made available to us for a few provinces, the data provided to us by the Bloc Québécois for Quebec for one year, and data provided to us by two provinces that do surveys—Alberta and Nova Scotia—and grossing up for Canada, we think you could get, quite comfortably, something in the range of 10 to 60 plans a year that could effectively be dealing with this kind of distress, depending on what happens in the course of the year.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

The Bloc's argument is that in Quebec it's on one or two or three plans, and that's that. Even if you took one or two or three plans and that's that and spread it across the whole country, it still doesn't get into your range of 60 plans a year. The 60 plans a year could change every year. I think that's right; I'm not sure.

3:40 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Kevin Page

Yes, but we're talking about a variance of 10; it could perhaps be upwards of 60 in unfortunate years. The average could be much lower than that.

3:40 p.m.

Sahir Khan Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

I may just add, Mr. McKay, that we're also speaking specifically about plans terminated due to financial distress, not simply about the volatility of a plan's ability in a given year to meets its obligations. That was our understanding of the policy intent of the bill.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I suppose we should check with my colleagues here as to what they interpret it to mean, because it's not clear in their bill what is meant by this.

3:40 p.m.

Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Sahir Khan

Yes, sir. In fact, this is what we have identified as the core of the issue. While the policy intent has been made more or less clear to us, it's the translation of that policy intent into the actual drafting of the bill that does not allow us to extract a narrow range of variables for estimation purposes. That's our core challenge.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Again, I don't know this, but is there an actual, legal recognition of when a plan is insolvent? I go back to the company: when a trustee files, then you know. I don't know whether that is true with plans as well. Is it?

3:40 p.m.

Financial Advisor, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Jason Jacques

It is true. The technical term actually isn't insolvency. It varies from province to province and regulator to regulator, but it's usually “termination”. When we were performing a sensitivity analysis with respect to the Bloc Québécois interpretation, we looked at specific pension plan terminations in which the plans were being terminated owing to financial distress or bankruptcy of the sponsoring firms.