Evidence of meeting #128 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bank.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stephen S. Poloz  Governor, Bank of Canada

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, merci beaucoup.

I call to order meeting number 128 of the Standing Committee on Finance.

Colleagues, just before we get to our special guest this morning, I just want to inform you—I believe you all know—that with respect to our study on income inequality, a motion was adopted in the House of Commons. I'll just read it for your information. By unanimous consent it was ordered:

That, in relation to its study on income inequality, the Standing Committee on Finance be authorized to continue its deliberations beyond Thursday, June 13, 2013, and to present its report no later than Thursday, October 31, 2013.

This reflects the will of this committee as well. Thank you.

Our second order of business today, pursuant to Standing Orders 110 and 111, is the order in council appointment of Stephen S. Poloz to the position of Governor of the Bank of Canada, referred to the committee on Monday, May 27, 2013.

Governor, I want to welcome you to the committee for the very first time. I congratulate you, on behalf of all committee members, on your appointment. With your predecessor, Mark Carney, we always had very interesting dialogues. We look forward to a very interesting dialogue with you here this morning.

At this time, I'll allow you to begin with an opening statement, and then we'll have questions from members.

8:45 a.m.

Stephen S. Poloz Governor, Bank of Canada

Thank you very much, Chair. It's a pleasure to be here.

Good morning. Bonjour, tout le monde.

The Bank of Canada's commitment to Canadians is to promote the economic and financial welfare of the country. One way that we do this is to communicate our objectives openly and effectively and stand accountable for our actions. Thank you very much for this opportunity to come before you to share the bank's perspective.

Kindly note that today is day four on the job for me. It has been a busy three days. I trust you'll forgive me if there are any details, though, that I haven't yet become familiar with. But that said, I look forward to hearing your views and taking your questions, and I'll answer them to the best of my ability.

The common denominator that ties together all the bank's work is confidence. Through our actions and our words, what the Bank of Canada delivers is, first, confidence in our currency; secondly, confidence in our role as fiscal agent for the federal government; thirdly, confidence in our banking system; and fourth, confidence in the value of money.

This is familiar ground to all of us here today. I don't propose to delve into the details of the bank's functions. Rather, I will discuss the current context in which we are operating and how that is influencing the bank's work of delivering confidence.

It is now almost six years since the start of the global financial crisis. Given the near-collapse of the global financial system and the dramatic plunge in global demand, it's perhaps no surprise that we haven't yet returned to normal economic conditions.

The global economy continues to struggle. Most advanced economies are still facing credit stresses and record-low interest rates. Many central banks continue to use unconventional means to provide stimulus, and governments are doing everything they can to manage their respective debt situations.

Clearly, the global economy is still in recovery. Global economic activity is expected to grow modestly this year before strengthening over the following two years. But this is not a recovery in the usual sense; it's closer to a post-war reconstruction. It will require sustained and focused efforts to rebuild global economic potential.

Allow me to talk about how, in this context, the Bank of Canada delivers confidence. Let me start with confidence in our currency, which for many Canadians is our most tangible work. Every banknote in the wallets of Canadians is the product of specialized and sophisticated expertise. We have nearly 200 people at the bank, physicists, chemists, engineers, and other experts, who design, test, and distribute banknotes across Canada. We also communicate with retailers, financial institutions, and the public, and we work with law enforcement to fight counterfeiting.

The stakes are high when it comes to counterfeiting, not only in direct losses to Canadians but also the loss of confidence it creates in the use of banknotes.

The challenge of counterfeiting is significant. There was a time in 2004, for example, when counterfeiting in Canada was at an historic peak and very high by international standards. I'm sure many of you will remember seeing the signs posted in stores saying $100 or $50 banknotes were not accepted.

The Bank of Canada introduced enhanced security features and worked closely with law enforcement agencies, the RCMP, and the courts, as well as financial institutions and retailers, to bring those counterfeiting rates down, and we succeeded. Even before the introduction of our new polymer banknotes, counterfeiting rates had been reduced by 90%, but it's important to remember that staying ahead of counterfeiters is a constant challenge and we must always be proactive.

That's why the bank launched a new series of polymer banknotes that are safer, cheaper, and greener. They're safer because of sophisticated security features that make these notes very hard to counterfeit and easier to verify. They're cheaper because they last at least two-and-a-half times longer than paper-based notes. This means that fewer notes will need to be printed, making the series more economical. And they're greener, because over the life of the series fewer notes produced means fewer notes transported, and when they do need to be replaced the notes will be recycled right here in Canada. With these new notes, Canadians can have full confidence in their currency.

The second area of our focus is much less visible to most Canadians. As the fiscal agent of the federal government, the Bank of Canada provides advice and administers the government's debt and its reserves and demonstrates global leadership in these realms.

Innovative work is being done, for example, to reduce the reliance on external credit-rating agencies in the management of the government's assets and liabilities. There's a lot of money at stake. In 2012, the bank managed Government of Canada daily cash balances averaging about $17 billion. We also managed on behalf of the government, official international reserves amounting to about $69 billion.

The third area where the bank delivers confidence is in our financial system. As with any plumbing system, we tend to take notice only when things go wrong. Through the crisis and since, the bank's work has meant that the resilience of Canada's payment clearing and settlement system has been maintained at a very high level, ensuring that Canadians can have confidence that the economy is supported by solid financial market infrastructures.

Financial stability at home is necessary, of course, but not sufficient. The crisis made it abundantly clear that the global financial system needed remodeling and the Bank of Canada has been at the forefront of global reform work. Canada has also made good on our G20 commitments. Among other reforms, we have put in place Basel III capital standards ahead of schedule. We have made significant strides on other market infrastructure reforms, which we can address in detail during our discussion.

These are real accomplishments, and our financial system is stronger as a result. But we must not lose momentum, here in Canada or on the international stage. More work is required to end the phenomenon of institutions that are too big to fail, including recovery and resolution plans for banks. And countries need to address the issue of shadow banking to ensure that systemically important financial institutions operating outside the perimeter of regulation come broadly into line with their regulated counterparts.

Finally, confidence is clearly important for the conduct of monetary policy. Monetary policy in Canada is supported by a governance structure that instills confidence and ensures that Canadians, through their government, have a say in setting the monetary policy framework. Importantly, the structure also ensures the independence of the central bank to make the right policy decisions to achieve our inflation target.

Canada's monetary policy framework is a good one. After a tremendous amount of research, Canada adopted an inflation-targeting regime in 1991. Since 1995 the target has been 2%. We recognized at a very early stage that a commitment to hold inflation absolutely steady at 2% was unrealistic. Shocks to the economy must be taken into account, so the framework was designed to keep total CPI inflation at the 2% midpoint of a target range of 1% to 3% over the medium term.

It bears mentioning that this target is symmetrical: we care just as much about inflation falling below the target as we do about its rising above it. The bank raises or lowers its policy interest rate as appropriate in order to achieve the target, typically within a horizon of six to eight quarters. That's about the time it normally takes for policy actions to work their way through the economy and have their full effect on inflation.

Over the past couple of decades the average rate of inflation has been very close to target. Even during the global economic and financial crisis, our commitment did not waiver. The inflation target is sacrosanct to us and has become a credible anchor for the inflation expectations of Canadians.

A key component of the Bank of Canada's inflation-targeting framework is a flexible exchange rate. While the exchange rate is influenced by such variables as commodity prices, relative inflation rates, and relative interest rates, its value is determined in currency markets.

The credibility earned by the bank over the past 20 years allows us to take advantage of the flexibility inherent in this framework with respect to the amount of time it takes to return inflation to target. The recent turmoil tested the limits of our flexible inflation-targeting framework. Nonetheless, the inflation expectations of Canadians remain well anchored, proving that our framework is secure and working. But it also informs us that we need to validate those expectations to maintain our credibility.

This brings me to a discussion of the domestic context. The severity of the global economic and financial crisis meant that the recession it triggered in Canada was different from any other post-war recession. Canada experienced a particularly deep contraction of investment and exports, as business confidence plummeted along with global demand.

In the immediate aftermath of the crisis, stimulative monetary and fiscal policies proved highly effective in supporting robust growth in domestic demand, particularly household expenditures, which grew to record levels. Yet, as effective as it has been, with domestic demand now slowing, the limits of this growth model are clear.

What's less clear is the rebuilding process that underlies the necessary rotation of growth toward net exports and business investment. While the Canadian economy as a whole has recovered from the recession, thanks to domestic demand, the depth and duration of the global recession delivered a direct, sharp blow to Canadian businesses.

In many cases, temporary plant shutdowns were not sufficient to match the fall in demand. Some firms permanently downsized their operations. Others simply closed their doors. Large job losses resulted. In effect, the recession caused a significant structural change in the Canadian economy. The level of our country's productive capacity—in other words, its potential—dropped, as the bank noted in April 2009. Standard macroeconomic models don't really capture these dynamics.

Just as the financial crisis triggered an atypical recession, the recovery cycle is also unusual. The rotation of demand will require more than just the ramping up of production. The sequence we can anticipate is the following: foreign demand will recover; our exports will strengthen further; business confidence will improve; companies will invest to increase capacity; and existing companies will expand and new ones will be created.

In short, what we need to see is the reconstruction of Canada's economic potential and a return to self-sustaining, self-generating growth.

The sequence may already be under way. We are now seeing signs of recovery in some important external markets, notably the United States and Japan, and there's continued growth in emerging market economies. The bank expects that the gathering momentum in foreign demand should help lift the confidence of Canada's exporters. This is critical for Canadian firms to boost their investment to expand their productive capacity.

To conclude, the bank has a role to play in nurturing that process to the extent possible within the confines of our inflation-targeting framework. There is no conflict between nurturing this and our need to get inflation up to the 2% target.

In monetary policy, actions are critically important, but words, too, matter a great deal. We can bolster confidence by explaining the forces at work in our economy, our projections for what's ahead, and our monetary policy response. And we help nurture confidence by listening to businesses, to labour groups, and to industry associations in order to expand our understanding of what's happening in the real economy.

We must always remember that beneath our economic and financial statistics and analysis are real people making real decisions that can lead to bad outcomes as well as good ones. Those decisions are very hard to make at any time, but when uncertainty is high and confidence has not been fully restored, they can be even more difficult. A lack of confidence can mean that such decisions are simply postponed and opportunities are lost.

To help engender confidence, an active engagement with Canadians must be a cornerstone of the policy of the Bank of Canada, not least of which is a continuing dialogue with this committee.

With that, I thank you for listening and I would be pleased to take your questions.

Merci.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much, Governor, for your opening statement.

We'll begin members questions with Ms. Nash, please.

9 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Governor. Welcome to the finance committee, and congratulations on your appointment.

I'd like to question you on a couple of different topics. You have spoken a lot in your remarks this morning about confidence, confidence in our financial sector, confidence in our economy, confidence in the bank. I know you will agree with me that the Bank of Canada should be completely independent in its execution of monetary policy.

In the finance committee we've been dealing with the government's omnibus legislation, Bill C-60, which would give the government veto power over hiring decisions. It would involve the government in labour relations at crown corporations, including the Bank of Canada.

My question is, do you think this could in any way compromise the independence of the bank and, therefore, compromise the confidence that Canadians have in the Bank of Canada and its complete independence from the government?

9 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

Thank you for your congratulations, and for your question.

The short answer to that question is no. Monetary policy independence is enshrined. It has been since central banks were first created; that's why they were created. The bank's operational independence for monetary policy is legally enshrined in the Bank of Canada Act, well established in practice.

On the administrative side of the bank, it's not that different. Of course, we have lots of legislative measures that already apply to us, the Canada Labour Code, the Human Rights Act, etc. I think we're generally seen as team players. That is, we consider ourselves part of the family of the public service and our budgets tend to be well-aligned with federal government guidance, etc., and our compensation arrangements are also in line. So I see quite a clean separation between, if you like, administrative independence versus monetary policy independence.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Do you think it would be desirable specifically to exempt the Bank of Canada from this provision on labour relations and the control of the government over labour relations at crown corporations, as provided for in Bill C-60?

9:05 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

The Bank of Canada is answerable to Parliament in the same way as any other government agency, so personally, I don't really see a need for that sort of exemption. As I said, I think it is aligned with the way we behave already. We have an oversight board from the private sector, which gives us great guidance along those lines. So we don't expect any significant impact from this. It's obviously very clearly separable from operational independence so far as monetary policy itself is concerned.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

Okay, thank you.

In April your predecessor, Governor Carney, pointed to household debt as a major domestic threat to our economy. He said it was perhaps the major threat to our economy. I say this at a time when the OECD indicates that Canada has, perhaps, the third most overvalued housing market in the world. The previous governor went so far as to say that current levels of household debt can strain the bank's ability to do more to advance our economic recovery. While there isn't a lot more the bank can do in this regard, do you agree with that assessment in general?

9:05 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

In general I'd say I do agree with that. Given the circumstances we were faced with, we were very fortunate that we had the capacity for households to in effect step up and expand their spending. As I said in my opening remarks, that is what gave us a buffer or cushion underneath the global contraction that we faced.

As the healing process continues globally, we should see that transfer of momentum as we reach full balance, and that would give us a period in which households, in effect, rebuild their balance sheets and become in a stronger financial position.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

I'm afraid my time is up. Thank you.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Ms. Nash.

We'll go to Mr. Jean, please, for your round.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you and congratulations as well.

On the Finance Canada website, it says:

This has been an extremely thorough process as we sought the best candidates from around the world.

That's from Mr. Flaherty.

Reading that, you must be quite honoured to be one of the best of the best in the world, at least considered so by Minister Flaherty. I looked through your resumé. You have a Ph.D., a Masters, a Honours BA in economics, and, in fact, you spent a considerable time at Export Development Canada, 14 years it looks like, as senior VP, chief economist, CEO and president. Some people may not realize it, but you also spent a lot of time at the bank before, some 14 years, in various capacities.

You've seen the inner workings of Export Development Canada, as well as the Bank of Canada, is that fair to say?

9:05 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

That is fair to say. I'm a lot older than I look.

9:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

You're doing well on that.

I thought about it, and, for the most part, I couldn't think of anybody better suited for the job. Export Canada is what our economy is based upon, either insurance or financial services, or supplier and project financing. But truth be told, our economy is so contingent on the success of our exports that nothing could be better as a background, in my opinion, than the ability to concentrate on our economy.

Would you not agree with that?

9:05 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

I certainly would.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

The last Bank of Canada governor was from northern Canada. You're not from “Edmonchuk” or some place like that, are you?

9:05 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

No, I am from Oshawa.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Okay.

The reason I ask is that you're quite a success story. A third-generation Ukrainian, your parents came here, obviously, with very little and you rose to the very top of an industry that is the top and most important in Canada, in my opinion, and you've done so successfully as the son of immigrants.

My point is that we're doing an income inequality study right now, or an “equality of opportunity” study I like to call it, and you are an example, I would suggest, of how successful one can be in Canada, through hard work, etc.

What I'd ask you at this stage, and I know it's not very normal, but what do you attribute your success to and your rise over a period of 28 years to the most senior level of what I would consider to be the most important job in the country, or at least one of the three?

9:10 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

Well, thank you for your question. It is an unusual one. It's caught me a little off guard, I'll admit.

Let me say that I worked very hard—and I suppose that culture of hard work I do owe to my parents, who worked very hard and always thought that if I worked hard and did well in school, I could have a better life and create a better life for my children.

Somewhere along the way, I came to realize that public service was an important driver for me, that the wish to do something for the common good is something that really fills my bucket. I discovered it most when I was in the private sector because I thought it was lacking. So I was delighted to have the opportunity to come back to the public sector back in 1999.

Anyway, long, perhaps too long, that combination somehow of hard work—and I have to admit, I got lucky a few times.... In 1978, one of my professors at Queen's thought, “Oh, that's interesting stuff you're doing on money; I bet the bank would be interested”. He called the deputy governor at the time, George Freeman, and told him about this. Overnight, I had a summer job in the monetary department at the Bank of Canada, and that's where a passion was born. So that was in 1978.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

What do you consider to be the best part of your background, education, and work experience suiting you for this job? I know you were chief economist, for instance, at Export Development Canada. Would you say that, combined with something else, would be the best part of your resumé, that helps you with what you're going to do?

9:10 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

I would describe it more as a tool kit.

If you're a Sunday hobbyist and you have only half the tools you need, you end up going over to Home Depot to get something extra to finish that job. Along the way, you collect a tool kit. It begins with an intense interest in things monetary—which is what I did all of my research work on during my student days—which was, clearly, why at that time I was preparing myself to come to the Bank of Canada for a permanent position. That chief economist experience, however, puts economics into that tool kit phase, as opposed to more of a passion or religion phase, because there's so much more going on. Then, the evolution to the EDC has given me much more of a grounding in the real business community in Canada, which gives you a whole other way to think about those issues—highly complementary—and so I find then that the tool kit feels full.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Jean.

We'll go to Mr. Brison, please.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Governor.

EDC's global export forecast for spring of 2013 suggested that exports will be a key driver for Canadian growth over the next two years and that “a softer loonie” will help. According to the Bank of Canada's recent monetary policy report, the loonie is predicted to stay near 98¢ U.S. in the near term. Do you believe the loonie is overvalued today, the Canadian dollar?

9:10 a.m.

Governor, Bank of Canada

Stephen S. Poloz

Like my predecessors, I will not offer a running commentary on the Canadian dollar, where it is and where it should be. I would say though that the EDC forecast is run through a process that I very much respect and find helpful, a very wide-ranging analysis that gives us that kind of prediction that exports really are gathering momentum. That's a very good thing for Canada. The quote that you offer, which is that a softer loonie will help, is a very marginal kind of addition.

In fact if you talked to a company, they'd pretty quickly tell you that their contract is with a foreign, say U.S., buyer. It's a U.S.-dollar contract. If the Canadian dollar moves during that contract, exports don't change, and the price that the person in the U.S. pays doesn't change. The only thing that changes is how much money the company gets. So it affects the profit margin.