Evidence of meeting #61 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transfer.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Glenn Campbell  Director, International Policy and Analysis Division , Department of Finance
Gilles Moreau  Director General, National Compensation, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Department of Public Safety
Jonathan Roy  Senior Policy Analyst, Social Policy, Health, Justice, Culture, Department of Finance
Daniel MacDonald  Chief, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, CHT/CST and Northern Policy, Department of Finance
John Davies  Director General, National Security Policy, Department of Public Safety
Darryl Hirsch  Senior Policy Analyst, Intelligence Policy and Coordination, Department of Public Safety
Nigel Harrison  Manager, Legislative and Parliamentary Affairs, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Gillis  Director General, Ecosystems and Oceans Science Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Lee  Director, Office of Legislative and Regulatory Modernization; Policy, Planning and International Affairs Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Samuel Godefroy  Director General, Food Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Alwyn Child  Director General, Program Development and Guidance Directorate, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Annette Nicholson  Secretary and General Counsel, International Development Research Centre (IDRC)
Lenore Duff  Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Dominique La Salle  Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Nathalie Martel  Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Bruno Rodrigue  Chief, Social policy, Income Security, Department of Finance
Annette Vermaeten  Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Eileen Boyd  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel, Privy Council Office
Neil Bouwer  Vice-President, Policy and Programs, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Lynn Tassé  Director, Canada Gazette, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Gerard Peets  Senior Director, Strategy and Planning Directorate, Department of Industry
Patricia Brady  Director, Investment, Insolvency, Competition and Corporate Policy Directorate, Department of Industry
Andy Lalonde  Manager, Preclearance, Canada Border Services Agency, Department of Public Safety
Lynn Hemmings  Senior Chief, Payments, Payments and Pensions, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

7:10 p.m.

Chief, Social policy, Income Security, Department of Finance

Bruno Rodrigue

I am here to provide responses to questions you may have on the proposed legislative amendments.

7:10 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

On the proposed change to OAS raising the age to 67 for future retirees, can you tell me what, in your view, the impact will be on seniors living below the low-income cut-off? Have you done that analysis?

7:10 p.m.

Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Dominique La Salle

We know that the social safety net will be there, and we know that the labour participation of Canadians—

7:15 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

So just let me clarify that. Is it that they can go on welfare. Is that what you're saying?

7:15 p.m.

Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Dominique La Salle

I'm saying that the social safety net is going to be there, but—

7:15 p.m.

NDP

Peggy Nash NDP Parkdale—High Park, ON

That would be social assistance, I would think.

7:15 p.m.

Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Dominique La Salle

—perhaps more importantly, the number of senior Canadians age 65 to 69, for example, has more than doubled in the last 10 years for men and more than tripled for women. That's from Statistics Canada.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

The next round is a Conservative round.

Mr. Jean.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Excellent. I thought Ms. Nash's line of questioning, when she let the witness answer, was really good and I'd like to hear more from the witness in relation to the specific numbers.

I was a bit shocked when you said the number of senior women has tripled and the number of senior men has doubled in the last 10 years. Obviously, if your customer base is doubling and tripling in a 10-year period, based on that trend I'd suggest that it wouldn't be very sustainable if they're receiving money from government.

Could you give us those figures, please?

May 17th, 2012 / 7:15 p.m.

Annette Vermaeten Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

I have a few figures that might be worthwhile to look at.

According to the labour force survey of Statistics Canada, a decade ago about 200,000 seniors were employed. Today it's over half a million. For young seniors, those age 65 to 69, it's even more pronounced; their employment rate has increased from 11% to about 23%. For women, the employment gains were higher. For men the increase has been slightly lower. There are a number of reasons. For example, people are living longer and healthier lives, the labour force is getting older, and seniors are choosing to remain in the labour force longer.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Actually that's a very fair comment. I've heard from a lot of seniors that they want to participate in the labour force, but often when they've retired from certain jobs it's difficult to find something that adapts to their particular lifestyle. I know that we've addressed some of that through work-sharing and other things we've done in this budget and the last budget.

What about the number of seniors and those who are actually becoming seniors? My understanding is that each year in Canada, 100,000 people become seniors, though I'm not sure if I'm correct on that number. Is that correct?

7:15 p.m.

Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Annette Vermaeten

It's more than that. I think it's about 325,000 individuals who turn 65.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

So it's 10,000 per week, or pretty close to that.

7:15 p.m.

Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Annette Vermaeten

That's about right, yes.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

So almost 10,000 people in Canada are becoming seniors every single week.

7:15 p.m.

Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Annette Vermaeten

Between now and 2030, there will be about nine million individuals who turn 65.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Nine million, over how many years?

7:15 p.m.

Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Annette Vermaeten

Between 2011 and 2030, so over the next—

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Nineteen years. Wow.

Have you forecasted—

7:15 p.m.

Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Annette Vermaeten

The expenditures for the OAS program are tripling and that's due to two main demographic factors. One is the increasing life expectancy, as people are living longer. Individuals who turned 65, let's say, in the 1970s lived for about another 16 years.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Yes, the average age is—

7:15 p.m.

Director, Task Force, Special Projects, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Annette Vermaeten

Right.

Today, an individual who turns 65 lives for about another 20 years. By 2030 it will actually increase to 22, another two years.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

That's great news. Hopefully, I'll last that long.

I'm also curious. The real number is the number of people who support the seniors. I've heard some figures, and I'd like to have those clarified now. What would the ratio be between the number of workers today supporting each senior compared to the number 10 years ago—if you have those figures—and then the number by 2030 doing the same?

7:15 p.m.

Director General, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Dominique La Salle

Just before my colleague jumps in and answers your question, sir, all the data that Ms. Vermaeten is quoting is found in the Chief Actuary's 9th report that was tabled in Parliament. We refer to working-aged Canadians in that report.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Sure. That's great.

What were those figures?