Finance Committee on May 29th, 2012

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I was a defence attorney and I understand. I understand where you're coming from, but to be consistent and to be blunt, this has been an ongoing issue with this service for a long period of time. It has been a constant complaint relating to their ability to function properly in Canada. That's my understanding.

[Paul Kennedy]

I can't see how that would affect them. There are probably about four or five reviewers who would look at files. There are 2,500 to 3,000 employees at CSIS. What has caused them to waste some of their effort is the inquiries that they get themselves caught up with. First of all, the Air India trial, with a million pages of documentation, was a burden on them because they had to redact that. When you get caught up in the Arar inquiry or the Air India inquiry, these things take a lot of effort.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peggy Nash]

Mr. Caron.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bolton, I have previously asked this question to Mr. Oliver. I think it was when we were here two weeks ago.

Our major concern about what is proposed in the bill in terms of the interoperability of Canadian and American forces in navigable waters is the fact that we are the ones studying it. I think that Mr. Oliver confirmed last time that there was no financial or fiscal impact and that it was already included in the RCMP budget.

If this bill is passed by the majority Conservative government, it will go into law without having been studied by the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, the committee that actually should be analyzing it.

A Canadian contravening any regulation whatsoever, say on the river at Windsor, should understand that the act was passed by a budgetary and fiscal process. What would you say when you arrested him? I am not talking about a serious crime, but about any minor infraction.

[Stephen Bolton]

Thank you for the question.

If a Canadian found himself in that situation, I think that what would be advantageous about this legislation is that, if it were on the Canadian side, if there were a law enforcement operation that picked up someone on the Canadian side, it would be under the direction of Canadian law enforcement. So if U.S. law enforcement were involved, the Canadian citizen would not have to be 100% familiar with or aware of the legislation. In fact, that really wouldn't matter, because the operation would be under the control of Canadian police.

I don't know, Joe, if you want to add to that.

[Chief Superintendent Joe Oliver, Director General, Border Integrity, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

With respect to Shiprider operations, the intent is to leverage each other's resources to bring greater crime-fighting capability along the Canada-U.S. border. If we had additional resources, all the better, because then we could apply them to enhance the border. But the reality is that in order to use our existing resources to achieve greater outcomes for Canadians and achieve greater security for Canadians, this legislative tool would allow us to do that, and certainly the fact that we can partner with other policing agencies—Canada, U.S.—will allow us that flexibility to better secure the border within existing resources and at reasonable cost to Canadians.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

My next question goes to Mr. Bolton and Mr. Zigayer.

Mr. Zigayer, you mentioned that this legislation implements a treaty that Canada has signed with the United States. I assume that this is not the first time that you have been involved in drafting legislation designed to implement the provisions of a treaty.

[Michael Zigayer]

No, it is not the first time.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Have other legal provisions in the same area that you have drafted and submitted to Parliament generally been studied by the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security or by the Standing Committee on Finance?

[Michael Zigayer]

I was part of the implementation of various treaties dealing with terrorism. We went to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. That was with Bill C-36. My colleague Mr. Kennedy was there too.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You have never previously dealt with the Standing Committee on Finance?

[Michael Zigayer]

This is the first time, and it is a real pleasure.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Welcome.

Let me move to something else.

I gathered that, in the budget—I am not necessarily talking about the budget implementation act, but about the budget itself—the government decided to reduce funding to the RCMP's clinics, or rather, forensic laboratories. Am I mistaken?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

Unfortunately, that's not within my area of responsibility, so I can't speak to those issues.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Well, I tried. I can understand that it is difficult for you. I will keep the question for someone else who will be able to answer, I hope.

Do I have any time left?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peggy Nash]

Your time is up already. Thank you very much.

Mr. Adler, please.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Bolton, there have been a number of parties who claim that we're compromising sovereignty by virtue of the integrated border law enforcement. Could you comment on that and reassure them that we won't be compromising any sovereignty?

[Stephen Bolton]

Yes. I think it goes back a little bit to the answer that I gave earlier, which is that by using our resources more effectively, by coordinating with our U.S. law enforcement partners more closely, and at the same time ensuring that Canadian law, the charter, and the privacy rights of Canadians are protected.... I think it goes back to two fundamental principles of the legislation, which is that the law enforcement officials would be under the direction of the host country and, secondly, that they would be enforcing the laws of the host country. So when you think about the legislation that way, it doesn't diminish sovereignty. In fact, I think you could argue that it asserts it, because we'll be dealing with cross-border criminality much more effectively.

Joe, do you want to add anything?

[C/Supt Joe Oliver]

I'll just reinforce a couple of aspects that have already been spoken to by Mr. Zigayer and Mr. Bolton.

I think the framework agreement is very explicit in terms of respect for sovereignty and the conditions under which these operations may unfold. The legislation itself is very clear, and this legislation is before Parliament.

The other aspects that will help strengthen the questions of sovereignty include the training. It is very clear that when operations are in Canada, Canadian officers are the lead and Canadian law applies—Canadian rules, Canadian procedures, and so forth.

The other aspect is that the bill also sets out a framework through which we will be accountable to an oversight body for operations undertaken in Canada. All of those elements together certainly demonstrate that we are respecting Canadian sovereignty. The aspect we are trying to achieve here is operational flexibility for people at work at the coal face, so as to allow us to better pursue criminals who take advantage of the border.

This is not about ceding sovereignty at all. It is really about exercising greater operational flexibility in a very complex environment.

[Stephen Bolton]

I'd add one more thing as well.

One thing I don't think we have mentioned concerns the designation of the officials. The host country would also have the choice of which partners from the visiting country would be part of the program. It's not as though the other country were able to say, "We're going to put these people into the program." The host country, through the central authority—which would be the RCMP—would have the ability to select the officials from the other country. The same would apply in the U.S. in terms of Canadian law enforcement. I think that's an important and helpful point as well.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

And with the shared vision agreement, I think we would probably be sending the wrong message if we didn't do anything, right?

[Stephen Bolton]

Yes.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Brannagan, could you talk a bit about the first responders and the coordination you have between first responders and those on the U.S. side, if—God forbid—there is an incident at the border. Is there a formal agreement right now between the two sides?

[Jerome Brannagan]

At Windsor and Detroit...?

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Windsor and Detroit and...yes.