Evidence of meeting #65 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was spectrum.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mirko Bibic  Executive Vice-President, Chief Legal and Regulatory Officer, BCE Inc. and Bell Canada
David Coles  President, Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada
Gary Wong  Director, Legal Affairs, Data and Audio-Visual Enterprises Wireless Inc., Mobilicity
Bruce Kirby  Vice-President, Strategy and Business Development, Public Mobile
Simon Lockie  Chief Regulatory Officer, Wind Mobile
Len Zedel  Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
Bob Kingston  National President, Agriculture Union
Philippe Bergevin  Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
David Skinner  President, Consumer Health Products Canada
Matthew Holmes  Executive Director, Canada Organic Trade Association
Richard Wright  Manager, Exploration, Oil and Gas, Nalcor Energy
Richard Steiner  Professor, University of Alaska, Conservation and Sustainability Consultant, Oasis Earth Project, As an Individual
Erin Weir  Economist, United Steelworkers

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

It's important that I clarify this because that's the problem with people who have outside interests. I just ask that we be very clear about both sides of the story.

When we talk about third-party delivery, I appreciate that Mr. Bergevin said he doesn't take issue with that, as long as there are rules. The rules are there. The inspectors are accredited. There are no two ways about it. That is clear.

I also want to correct the record with regard to the size of the budget bill. Let's get to the facts. Bill C-10, which was Budget 2009, was bigger than this one. Bill C-9, Budget 2010, BIA number two, was 880 pages. Bill C-13, Budget 2011, BIA number one, was 644 pages. They were all bigger than this one. This is not unusual in any way, shape or form.

These studies are done over years. One of the witnesses mentioned that. I just want to make that clear so Canadians understand the full picture on some of these issues.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Ms. Glover. Your time unfortunately is up.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

I'm allowed to make comments or ask questions.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

It's every member's right to do that.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

Shelly Glover Conservative Saint Boniface, MB

Thank you.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Jean, please.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for coming today.

I want to confirm a couple of things.

Mr. Wright, I understand that the changes you've come here to talk about in relation to the Coasting Trade Act have long been requested by the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and by the premier's office. I think for more than a decade they've been asking for these changes. Is that not correct?

9:30 p.m.

Manager, Exploration, Oil and Gas, Nalcor Energy

Richard Wright

That's correct.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

So this is very popular in Newfoundland and Labrador.

9:30 p.m.

Manager, Exploration, Oil and Gas, Nalcor Energy

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

It's not very popular in Fort McMurray, because now all the people are going to go back to Newfoundland and Labrador.

9:30 p.m.

Manager, Exploration, Oil and Gas, Nalcor Energy

Richard Wright

That would be great.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I think it's great too, to be honest, but it's great to have them in Alberta. It's really good to have a country in which we can have workers go back and forth between all the provinces and work with red seal certification, and in which they can take lots of money back home. I think that's awesome.

I would like to ask a couple of questions of Mr. Steiner, or at least confirm some things with him.

I had the opportunity to work on the environment committee here. I also believed in a perfect world at one time, and I almost finished my master's degree in environmental law until reality got hold of me and I ran out of money. I was planning on saving the world with things that I could do. Since that time I've realized that the reality is that we can have responsible development and protect our environment and wildlife as well. I want to let you know that from my time on the transport committee I learned that Canada has, in my mind, the best laws in the world to protect tanker traffic. I'd like you to comment on this, after I tell you some of the things.

The Canada Shipping Act, of course, is something that deals with it. We have three particular pieces of legislation that deal with it: the Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act; the International Maritime Organization, which of course we're a signatory to; and we have a requirement now that all large ships have to be double-hulled. I know that Mr. Weir would appreciate that, because of course they're made of steel and they take a lot more money and work and employ a lot more workers.

Including the double-hulled requirement, I want you to know that we have mandatory pilotage zones, especially on the west coast. We have professional pilots who are required to not only bring their own GPS and navigation systems but their charts as well. You know, of course, from what happened with the Exxon Valdez, that they had a broken radar for over a year, which is not acceptable. I think even the United States, in their new Oil Pollution Act of 1990, saw what was there, and they changed the laws tremendously.

But I want to tell you that we also require two tugs, front and back; we have a requirement to go at no more than 10 knots in certain areas; we have the strictest ballast laws in the world; we have a national oil spill preparedness with four different agencies that come forward in response when required; and we have a national aerial surveillance program that spots oil leaks. We also have agencies that follow those oil leaks and arrest the ships, be they foreign or otherwise. We require an annual inspection of domestic ships and also have a port state control inspection of foreign ships, which has to be done yearly as well, when they enter our area.

I just want to let you know that from my perspective, this and my background would indicate to me that this would be one of the safest areas in the world to transport ships.

Would you agree with me, based on the information I've provided to you and that Ms. McLeod has provided to you before?

I mean, nothing's perfect, but....

9:35 p.m.

Prof. Richard Steiner

Thank you for the question.

I guess the devil is in the details. That all sounded very good, but I would simply caution that we thought we had a good system prior to Exxon Valdez for tanker shipment; however, there was complacency that came into the system, within both the industry and government, and that's a natural human tendency when you get some time between the last disaster and where you are.

I wouldn't be complacent. All of us—

9:35 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Yes, and I would agree with that, but the legislation now.... And the Exxon Valdez, with respect, were at half crew, they were fatigued, and there were disciplinary issues in relation to the crew itself. It's a much different regime now. We require the pro pilots; we require them to have proper training.

In essence, we have 1,200 tankers per year that go up and down the west coast, on average about 2.8 per day. We have very little traffic, and in fact most areas control the number of vessels that can go through.

So I just want to assure you that we have the best laws in the world in relation to our tanker traffic, and also our response regime is excellent.

9:35 p.m.

Prof. Richard Steiner

If I could make one last comment on that, I commend you for that vigilance, and please don't lose it. As good as you think it is, and as good as we think ours is in Prince William Sound, we have to remain vigilant to make sure that it stays as safe as possible, and we have to continue to improve it when we can. That's all I'd offer.

9:35 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I would agree with you.

9:35 p.m.

Prof. Richard Steiner

There are condensate tankers, for instance, calling at Kitimat now without tug escorts, and these could possibly cause a serious problem. There are tankers calling in B.C. ports without tug escorts, which I think would be worth looking at.

9:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Jean.

I want to follow up with one brief question with respect to division 38. I think both Mr. Jean and Mr. Adler have done a good job in terms of identifying the positives of division 38.

Mr. Steiner, I very much appreciate your respectful recommendations to our committee, and, Mr. Zedel, yours as well, that while you are not opposed to the division, you're saying that obviously we have to ensure that these vessels adhere to very good Canadian guidelines.

I have a quick question to Mr. Wright. Mr. Steiner has proposed that Canada and the U.S. develop a bilateral agreement and negotiate a seismic mitigation protocol. My view is that they would almost be separate from this legislation, but they are things the Canadian government could certainly pursue.

Are you in favour of these, Mr. Wright?

9:40 p.m.

Manager, Exploration, Oil and Gas, Nalcor Energy

Richard Wright

We would certainly support that. Anything we can learn collectively and internationally would be to the benefit of all.

9:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

So the proposals by Mr. Steiner are fully acceptable to you?

9:40 p.m.

Manager, Exploration, Oil and Gas, Nalcor Energy

Richard Wright

They would be fine. Absolutely.

9:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay.

Thank you very much. I just wanted to clarify that.

I want to thank you all for being with us here tonight and especially for staying longer than expected. I thank our two guests by video conference. If you have anything further, submit it to the clerk and we'll ensure that all members get it.

Thank you very much. Merci.

The meeting is adjourned.