Evidence of meeting #83 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was unions.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Logan  Professor, Labour and Employment Relations, San Francisco State University
Daniel Kelly  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Robert Blakely  Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Office, Building and Construction Trades Department, AFL-CIO
Michael Mazzuca  Chair, National Pensions and Benefits Law Section, Canadian Bar Association
Kenneth V. Georgetti  President, Canadian Labour Congress
Gregory Thomas  Federal and Ontario Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

I call this meeting to order. This is the 83rd meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance. Our orders of the day, pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, March 14, 2012, are our study of Bill C-377, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act (requirements for labour organizations).

Colleagues, you have the agenda in front of you. We had agreed that at this meeting we would have the mover of the motion of the bill, Mr. Russ Hiebert, from 3:30 to 4:00 for an opening statement. We'll then have a round of questions from members. Then we will bring forward our six witnesses for the second part of the meeting.

Mr. Hiebert, we'll have your opening statement now, and then we'll have questions from members. Welcome to the committee. Please begin.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Thank you.

Colleagues, thank you for the opportunity to speak before you on my private member's bill, Bill C-377, requiring public financial disclosure by labour organizations.

I was first motivated to introduce legislation in the area of transparency as I examined some of the actions our Conservative government has taken since taking office in 2006. Among the legislation we've introduced as a government, our bill requires greater transparency for public office holders, for crown corporations, and, most recently, for native reserves.

However, I was surprised to learn that despite the massive federal public benefits for labour organizations and their dues payers provided through the Income Tax Act, there was no requirement to be accountable to the public for the use of those benefits. As you know, labour organizations, which collect between $3 billion and $4 billion a year in dues, operate free from tax on such things as profits on investments, revenue from employers, and training centre profits. Their members receive full income tax deductibility for their dues payments, and they receive their strike pay tax-free. Dues deductibility alone costs the federal treasury in the range of about $500 million a year.

As I stated in the second reading debate, labour organizations play a valuable role in Canadian society, and that is why we provide those benefits. However, I believe that because the public is providing such a substantial benefit, it should know how that benefit is being used. After all, charities, which also receive substantial benefits from taxpayers, have been publicly reporting on their finances for the past 35 years, since 1977.

As I looked around at our largest trading partners—the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia, Germany, France—I found that public financial disclosure for labour organizations has long been a fact of life. Indeed, some of my colleagues may be surprised to learn that for Canadian labour organizations that were founded as branches of U.S. unions, my bill is not news at all. That's because under the U.S. legislation, which was written way back in 1959, any union headquartered in the United States must also report on its foreign subsidiaries, which means, for example, that if a Canadian wants to know details about the leader of the United Steelworkers in Canada, that person could easily search the U.S. labour department website and discover the salary and expenses of that individual, along with information about how he allocates his time. The U.S. report tells us that in 2011, for instance, that particular labour leader spent one-third of his time on representational activities, one-third on administration, and one-third on political activities.

Bill C-377 will ensure that the Canadian public, including union members and retired former union members, will have similar comprehensive information about the spending of Canadian unions regardless of where they are headquartered.

One of the predominant concerns or questions raised by union leaders has to do with the cost of complying with the legislation. Some have suggested the cost will be high. However, I can assure you that unions are going to find the cost of complying with this legislation very modest, and I can use some recent history to demonstrate that this is the case.

When the U.S. labour department started to enforce more detailed public filing requirements for U.S. labour organizations—requirements that are similar to mine—about a decade ago, they also required the unions to report the cost of compliance. Perhaps not surprisingly, U.S.-based unions initially made the same complaint—that it was going to cost them a lot to comply with the disclosure requirements—but once the filing started to come in, it turned out that the costs were in fact very minimal. That's really not surprising if you think about it. We live in an age of electronic bookkeeping, and much of the information my bill requires is information that any responsible organization is already tracking.

For many unions the only expense they might incur in complying with this bill is for a software upgrade. Some smaller locals have suggested that requiring many pages of filing is going to be burdensome for them. Again I say no. If a local has not engaged in spending in several of the categories listed in my bill, then what could be simpler than entering a zero on those pages of the filing? Remember, Canadian unions with U.S. headquarters are already collecting and publicly disclosing this information in the United States.

Further, I would remind the committee that the bill makes no requirement that the filing be audited. Therefore, a union does not need to incur an outside expense for an audit.

As for the cost to the Government of Canada, I believe there will be some work to do on CRA's part in making the filings available in an easily searchable database on its website. However, it's important to remember that the CRA has much experience with the publishing of filings already, as it has been doing so with charities for 35 years and, in recent years, using its website. This is really not new for the CRA at all.

I believe the cost to unions will not be significant and is a distraction from the more fundamental issue of transparency and accountability. Labour organizations need to be accountable for the substantial public benefits they and their members receive. My bill does not tell unions how to spend their money or restrict them in any way; it only requires transparency so that the public can see how that money was spent.

As you know, Bill C-377 received approval in principle from the House at second reading, despite almost hysterical opposition from some members of the NDP. It has become apparent why the NDP doesn't want transparency from labour organizations; they don't want Elections Canada and others to know when they've been taking illegal donations from unions to fund their party. Under my bill, full financial disclosure will make it an awful lot harder to hide hundreds of thousands of dollars in illegal union contributions to the NDP.

Regardless, the second reading vote does not mean that the bill as it's currently written cannot be improved. Over the last several months, I have listened carefully to the concerns raised by MPs from all parties, as well as interested groups and individuals, and it's clear to me that some modest amendments are necessary to improve the bill.

I believe it's possible to achieve these improvements without compromising the intent and purpose of my bill, which is to ensure that the public has a comprehensive picture of how labour organizations are spending their money. As such, I would encourage the committee to consider a number of amendments to the bill.

One amendment would be to ensure privacy for the identity of individuals receiving health care, pension, or other types of benefits under a registered benefit plan. A second would be to reiterate and reinforce the confidentiality of solicitor-client privilege. A third would be to avoid publishing home addresses of individuals, even when their names are required to be published. In the case of police officers, I believe these amendments will also meet their special needs to have their personal information protected from criminal elements.

Another amendment would change the requirement for—quote—“a record” of the amount of time that directors, employees, and others spend on lobbying and other political activities. It would be changed to “an estimate” of the time provided. To clarify, the term “record” may be interpreted as requiring keeping an hourly log, and I'm not interested in creating red tape for hard-working labour leaders. Instead, a reasonable estimate of the time spent on such activities would provide useful information.

Another concern that was brought to me is that the bill's definition may have had the unintended consequence of capturing certain benefit-paying institutions, such as pension or health care funds. I would encourage the committee to consider an amendment to the definition of “labour trust” that would clarify that pension, health care, and related benefit firms are not captured by the reporting requirements of my bill.

To reiterate, colleagues, it's not the purpose of my bill to impinge on the privacy of individual Canadians. The purpose of my bill is to disclose union spending. I appreciate your attention to improving this bill through amendments.

Finally, I want to respond to the suggestion from some that this bill is somehow anti-union. On the contrary, this bill is the most pro-union legislation to be tabled and moved forward in Parliament in many years. Union members and retired union members, like the general public, want to know how union money is being spent. Eighty-three per cent of Canadians say they want to see financial transparency, according to a recent Nanos survey. Many unions are already publicly disclosing, but because of a U.S. law, not a Canadian one.

While a handful of union leaders may be uncomfortable with the idea of public disclosure right now, in time the public will see that the large majority of Canadian unions are using their resources wisely and efficiently. As this fact becomes apparent, a positive image of labour organizations as fiscally responsible will be promoted, just as it happened when charities became more accountable 35 years ago.

This legislation will give unions a solid public image and give union members, retirees, and all Canadians the information and confidence in unions they want to have. That's why I say that Bill C-377 is pro-union.

Therefore, despite the opposition of a handful of union leaders and some of their friends in the opposition parties, I would encourage you, going forward, to see this bill as something that Canadians, including unionized workers and their families, support.

Thank you for your attention.

I'm pleased to answer your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Hiebert.

We will begin members' questions with Mr. Boulerice, for five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming to give us a short presentation, Mr. Hiebert. As I listen to you, my impression is of a sick patient whom someone has desperately tried to treat with band-aids. Unfortunately, that generally does not cure people, however many band-aids you apply.

My impression is that your bill is badly written and that there are some fundamental holes in it. If we were in school, I would return the copy to the student and tell him not to hand in a rough draft. There are a number of aspects that you have not thought of. The bill has great potential for collateral damage and for a number of failures. It also intrudes into people's lives a great deal.

I wonder if you are aware of the disastrous effects your bill could have on our economy.

Mr. Hiebert, did you think about the disastrous impact that this bill could have on pension plans and, as a result, on our financial markets?

In general, this seems to be a sloppily written bill with an area of unintended consequences.

Let's talk about how the $5,000 reporting mechanism will have an impact on labour trusts, investment firms, and the financial markets. Since the bill requires the public disclosure of previously private contracts, labour trusts will be effectively unable to engage in private equity investments. As a result, how large a shift of labour trust capital out of private equity agreements and venture capital do you expect the bill to result in?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Perhaps I wasn't completely clear in my opening statement when I mentioned that I would suggest that the committee consider an amendment to address the issue of pensions and trusts to preserve an element of privacy. It was never the intention of this bill to disclose those kinds of payments to health beneficiaries, whether they be for health or dental benefits or other related matters. I think an amendment would address the concern you're expressing.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Mr. Hiebert, you have come here with a list of amendments we have not yet seen. Your bill casts a very wide net. All transactions and disbursements over $5,000 from a pension fund or retirement plan that is linked in whole or in part to union workers must now be disclosed to taxpayers.

I feel that you are creating a bureaucratic monster, a mountain of paperwork. Given that the Conservative Party wants to reduce the size of government, to reduce paperwork and administration, I find it a little strange that a member of that party is introducing a bill that instead is going to create a bureaucratic and administrative nightmare.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Perhaps the translation wasn't accurate.

What I heard through translation was the statement you made that all transactions of a pension fund over $5,000 will need to be disclosed. That's exactly what I'm addressing when I suggest that for some time now I've been publicly stating that an amendment needs to come forward. I'm working on a draft of an amendment that will be presented to the committee that would address the concern that pension funds in particular have. I've been consulting with them, they've been communicating with my office, and I think we've come to something pretty close to satisfying their opposition or their concerns in this respect.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Are you going to continue on the road that you have taken, that is to disclose all the contracts that unions, or their companies or trusts, could establish with outside companies that provide them with services? If so, that completely breaks some rules of confidentiality on commercial transactions and contracts with third parties.

Are you going to continue along that road, which would set a precedent in our economic system?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

With respect to trusts, as is the case with pensions, that's what the amendment is there to address.

With respect to the transactions of labour organizations over $5,000, that's what the law in the United States currently requires and that's what some Canadian unions or labour organizations affiliated with U.S. labour organizations currently have to disclose, so I'm suggesting that we level the playing field so that not just some labour organizations in Canada are going to be required to disclose those transactions that you're referring to.

Right now they disclose them on a U.S. Department of Labor website; I'm suggesting that they not have a greater burden than other Canadian labour organizations and that we level the playing field so that all labour organizations in Canada are treated equally.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have time for a very brief question.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

I find it a little strange that you did not think of those problems beforehand. I repeat, this is shoddy homework and it has to be completely redone. I have no clear picture of the problem this bill is going to solve. Quite the opposite, it is going to cause expense and more paperwork for a lot of people.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Mr. Hiebert, do you want to respond briefly? No? Okay.

Thank you. Merci. We'll go to Mr. Van Kesteren, please, for your round.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Hiebert, for coming.

I must tell you I've probably had more correspondence on this bill than on most others in the last number of years. I'm glad to have you here so we can get some of these concerns out of the way.

Some critics of the bill have suggested that Bill C-377 might violate a number of constitutional rights. I've heard things like freedom of speech and freedom of association are threatened by the bill.

Do you agree, and why or why not? Also, in what ways might Bill C-377 enhance the rights of union members and the public?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

In terms of the constitutional element, I've heard those accusations as well. Let's not forget that this legislation would amend the Income Tax Act, which is a federal piece of legislation.

It's not unlike the requirements that charities have had for 35 years now, and no one has suggested that it was unconstitutional to require charities to disclose information as to how their money is being spent.

I disagree. I don't think there's any basis to that particular claim. That's the most obvious example that I think we can point to. If it were unconstitutional, then charities wouldn't be disclosing as they currently are.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

One of the things that I always like to question when new bills arise is whether we have a precedent. Can we look somewhere else and see if, rather than being trailblazers, we're often much better off to be imitators? I wonder if other areas of the world, other jurisdictions, have this type of legislation and how successful they been have. Can you give us some examples?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the United States has had similar legislation since 1959. I would note for the committee's benefit that in 1959 the Democrats controlled both Houses of Congress, both the House and the Senate. The party that is most closely aligned with organized labour in the United States was the one that brought in this legislation.

In addition to the United States, the U.K. has it, and Australia has a version, which their labour party is in the process of strengthening. It's there, but they are going to do more to strengthen it. I'm also told that it is present in Germany and France.

We talked about charities having to disclose for 35 years, since 1977, and it's had no appreciably negative impact on charities. If anything, I think you could persuasively argue that it's increased the confidence that Canadians have when they donate to charities, knowing that the money they're contributing is going for the purposes for which it was intended.

That's the precedent I look to. I've already noted that right now Canadian labour organizations affiliated with the U.S. union have to disclose. You can go to the U.S. Department of Labor website right now and look up the United Steelworkers in Canada and see their transactions over $5,000. Basically all the items that my bill outlines are what's currently being disclosed by Canadian labour organizations affiliated with the U.S. organization.

My rationale is, why have different playing fields? Why have some Canadian labour organizations required to provide a certain level of disclosure, and other labour organizations not?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

You have one more minute.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Very quickly, a huge amount of capital is involved here. I don't know if you mentioned, but I read somewhere about how much money is involved in union dues. What you're telling us is that prior to this there really was no way for the public to know just where all that money was going.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Mr. Van Kesteren, that's correct. It's our estimate that $3 to $4 billion a year is collected by labour organizations in union dues. That's a large amount of money. I've already referred to the $500 million tax benefit that is afforded to labour organizations. I'm informed by tax lawyers and experts that at the present time, unlike you and unlike a corporation or a charity, labour organizations have no obligation under the Income Tax Act to keep records or to disclose information on demand.

This would definitely increase the amount of disclosure required. Let's remember why.

The purpose is to increase the confidence Canadians have that labour organizations are operating with transparency, accountability, and financial integrity.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

Mr. Cuzner, you have five minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be here.

Russ, I have only five minutes. I will get right to it.

Your characterization of the demands that are going to be placed on organized labour, which is that they mirror charities, is a bit of a stretch. If we were looking at athletic events, one would be a sprint, and the other would be a decathlon.

Our office sent a letter to CRA asking for the same information you are asking from unions through this legislation. What we got back from the CRA is that “the Privacy Act precludes the CRA from disclosing personal information about its employees. In some cases, the CRA may be able to respond with aggregate data.” We're asking far more of unions than we are of charities and even crown corporations.

To the cost of this, could you tell me how much this is going to cost the Government of Canada to administer? Could you give me a dollar figure?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

I'll answer the first part of the question, and then I'll get—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

No, that's the question. How much does it cost?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Mr. Cuzner, as you would know, a private member's bill is not allowed to cost the government any new expense. If it did, it would require a royal recommendation, and I wouldn't be sitting here today. Any expense the Government of Canada would have to incur would be within the current envelope.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

It costs $33 million annually to administer the charity section of CRA. They employ 310 people. That cost will go up $5 million in the 2012 budget. How can we say, with this being so much more involved and far more complex, that this is not going to impact the costs?