Finance Committee on April 8th, 2014

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you: that takes my full 15 seconds.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Monsieur Dubé, please.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Gouda, I want to continue on the internship question. I know that you talked a lot about what your organization does, but given that expertise in the field, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on an issue that has come up quite a few times with regard to unpaid internships—not the payment as such, but the conditions, some of the abuse that goes on.

We've heard recommendations along the lines of maybe tightening the rules a little bit concerning how these workers are treated for companies that are under federal jurisdiction. What are your thoughts on that?

[Naguib Gouda]

Thank you.

Absolutely, it is part of my recommendation. We are a very strong advocate for paid internships. We believe that the enforcement of the Employment Standards Act is the right thing to do to prevent the exploitation of youth. We've gone on record as saying that.

We believe that this is the responsibility of three players: the government needs to safeguard young people's rights and ensure fair and equal access to career-launching opportunities; the employers absolutely need to invest in our future by ensuring that young people receive the experience they need to grow and become tomorrow's leaders; and young people themselves have the responsibility to educate themselves on their rights and to make informed decisions in investing in their careers and futures.

We believe that paid internships fast-track young professionals to full-time employment. The statistics I've quoted prove that, in terms of our history.

We also believe that unpaid internships restrict opportunities—and this is key—to certain socio-economic classes. Only those who can afford to work without pay have the opportunity to get experience this way. Those who cannot afford it end up taking survival jobs and are underemployed. That is something that's really important to keep in mind as you deliberate.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I appreciate that.

Mr. Lewchuk, I have a question for you concerning underemployment. Last Wednesday we saw a report from Statistics Canada that talked about university grads working in jobs that they're overqualified for. You get 40% of university-educated Canadians working in jobs that don't require a university degree.

But more troubling than that is the next statistic, which is that 18% of degree-holders in the 25-to-34 age range work in jobs that require a high school diploma or less. We obviously know what that means, with all due respect to those jobs and that work—we've all been there. I want your thoughts on underemployment and some of the skills erosion that comes from it, but also on the wage-scarring and those related issues.

[Dr. Wayne Lewchuk]

Yes, I know there are certainly concerns, and you're right on the statistics. But I think this is also a sign of how the labour market has changed. Employers are under tremendous competitive pressures. We shouldn't kid ourselves that this is an easy world. One way of solving those competitive pressures, rather than taking workers with very good skills and then giving them the training so that they become middle-aged workers with the employer, is to go on the market and try to immediately get the skills that are out there.

What that means is that we have a whole class of young workers who, to be honest with you, are not getting the training from their employers or are being forced to take unpaid internships because that's one way they can do it. Or, as our study shows, they're paying for it themselves.

I think we really need to rethink the whole model of how we provide training. In places such as McMaster, we turn out Lamborghinis of students; I think they have great skills. But they don't have any wheels yet. Someone has to take them and put the wheels on. Once you put the wheels on, those machines will go; these will be very profitable employees.

Right now we have that gap: we haven't been able to find out who will put the wheels on our Lamborghinis.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Or pave a nice road in front of the car, to keep to that metaphor.

That said, you also talked about one thing that I think has been really critical in this study. Beyond the statistics on youth unemployment, it's this idea of the impact on communities. It means that folks aren't buying homes. They're not starting families. They're not starting a business. We've heard about that from some witnesses.

Could you talk about some of those challenges? In your area in particular, southern Ontario, do you see these impacts on communities? Maybe you could also comment on the question of mobility and the emptying of regions as folks go out to find opportunities elsewhere—young people, obviously.

[Dr. Wayne Lewchuk]

Yes, for sure. As a person my age, I speak to a lot of parents. I know that a lot of parents are upset about this process because their kids are still living in their basement. They're saying to themselves that they did everything right, that they paid for their kids' university education, and the kids are now 25 and 30 years old. They expect them to get on, but they're still living in the basement, and they want them out of their basement. They've had enough of them. I think that's certainly one of the social effects.

But you're also right in that sometimes people are being forced to abandon communities. I think Hamilton is an excellent example. It's a place where you used to be able to get a job that paid a middle income, with benefits. With the structural changes that are going on in Hamilton now, a lot of kids leave. Many parents are concerned that their children are not sticking around. I think 20 years down the road.... We have to begin thinking about what this means as we, the parents, age. Who's going to take care of us? Certainly I think about this now. Both of my kids are on the west coast for their jobs.

I think there are social issues that we need to be worried about—

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I'm sorry, but my time's just about done, so I'll be quick.

We talked about pensions at our last meeting. Some folks were saying that we should go back to the youth unemployment question, but would you agree with me? I think pensions are related, especially as someone who's part of that generation. In the sense of youth unemployment and the long-term impacts, those two-tiered pension systems play into that economic environment that creates more of a negative attitude. Is that a fair assessment?

[Dr. Wayne Lewchuk]

I didn't think about a pension when I was young, but the reality is that if you're going to have a pension, you need to start young. That's a real challenge for young people, because fewer and fewer of them are on track with pensions at an early age.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I appreciate that. Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Monsieur Dubé.

We'll go to Mr. Allen, please.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

Mr. Gouda, I'd like to start with you just with respect to your program since the mid-nineties when.... I have three questions I'd like to ask you. First, you talk about 50% being hired by employers right now and most others being hired within six months. How have those metrics improved since 1996? I'd just like to understand how dynamic your organization has been. On that 50% now, was it less when you started? Have you seen that percentage grow?

Second, at our last meeting we also talked about a lot of young kids with disabilities who were shut out of the workplace or find it hard to integrate. They may be high-functioning people with Asperger's, for example. What success have you had with young people with disabilities?

Third, how many people have gone through this, have made the entrepreneurial jump instead of just going with an organization, and have leveraged that internship into potentially being an entrepreneur?

[Naguib Gouda]

The first question is about whether that number has always been the same or whether it has changed. It has relatively always been the same. Where it varies is from sector to sector.

For example, I cited that the Government of Ontario has hired 700 interns since 2004. Their retention of those interns is much higher than average. It's in the 75% to 90% range. The retention of internationally qualified professionals in terms of those who stay with the employer tends to be higher than for recent graduates. These folks come highly credentialed from abroad with a number of degrees and many years of experience, so the cycle they're breaking is no Canadian experience.

Those numbers have been consistent. Where they vary is in our three buckets, so to speak: recent grads, recent grads with disabilities, and internationally qualified professionals. In certain sectors, governments tend to keep people more. Partly that's for two reasons. One, our belief is that these are folks who like that career in the public sector and want to stay. Two, when you go into the private sector, once you get that break and you are no longer facing that barrier, it's much easier for the competition to hire you.

Your second question was on PWDs, people with disabilities. And the question was around...?

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

What kind of success are you having with integrating young people with disabilities?

[Naguib Gouda]

I worked at York University before coming to this position, or at least on my road here. I saw students graduate side by side, people like Noel and me—a huge age difference here, but nevertheless—and I would graduate with a self-declared disability and Noel would graduate without one. Otherwise, we had the exact same degree, the exact same experience.

The barriers that young kids—recent grads with disabilities—face are higher, so really, it's about workplace accommodation. What we found is that once that workplace accommodation is made, it changes the cultures of organizations permanently. Again, going back to your first question on people with disabilities, assuming there is a match between the employee and the employer, the retention tends to be higher.

And your last question...?

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

The last one is real quick because I want to get to Ms. Desmoulin. How many people have jumped to entrepreneurship? Do you know that?

[Naguib Gouda]

We've not measured that. What we've measured is a private sector jump, especially, again, when we work with government. The Government of Ontario has asked us to look at how many of the folks who don't stay with the government end up in the private sector, and a huge majority end up doing that.

What we do know, though, Mr. Allen, is that we're focusing more and more on placing interns with small and medium-sized enterprises. There's an appetite for entrepreneurs to hire interns. We're working more closely with those folks. Presumably, some of those people will end up being entrepreneurs themselves.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have two minutes.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Ms. Desmoulin, I was intrigued by your tribal council, because I have a tribal council in my riding as well. One of the first nations is working very closely with the development of a mine in my riding as well. When you talked about your skills gaps and educational gaps and developing the regional training plan, I get that it's very important.

I have a couple of questions. One, how are you trying to pick up this training and are you partnering, or is there an opportunity to partner, with some of the firms that are going to be the developers of the Ring of Fire, to actually build this?

[Beedahbin (Dawn) Desmoulin]

Yes. Actually, I have provided some information to everybody as well. We are working on what is called RoFATA, the Ring of Fire Aboriginal Training Alliance, which is an agreement, an MOU, that was signed by Confederation College in Thunder Bay, Noront Resources, and Matawa. Those three entities are partnering up in order to develop a training plan for our Matawa communities, and currently we are going through with that process.

We've already done tier one. It's going into three tiers. Tier one is the mining readiness programs. We've completed those. Tier two and tier three are up and coming and still in the process. Our partner is Noront, which is going to be doing the employment piece at the end of the day, after the training is completed. A lot of our clients are coming in through ASAP, the aboriginal skills advancement program that's also at KKETS. That's academic upgrading.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

One of the things we did in the natural resources committee a couple of years ago is that we were talking about some of this development, and the Ring of Fire came up at that time. One recognition was the different training that people would need as part of this. Some of them had different skills they had to learn hands on. Is that kind of reflecting some of the special needs for the people as well?

[Beedahbin (Dawn) Desmoulin]

Absolutely.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.