Evidence of meeting #29 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was skills.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
April 8th, 2014 / 4:45 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you.
This has been fascinating. Thanks to all of you for coming.
My first question will be to Professor Lewchuk. I just want to say that I found this “It's More than Poverty” report that you did with PEPSO, I think you said, the most disturbing document I've read in an awfully long time.
You indicate, I think, that half of GTA and Hamilton workers are in precarious jobs, by which you mean that almost half don't have stable, secure jobs, and that figure has gone up by about 50%, you say, in the last 20 years.
My question is whether there is a difference in precarious work as it affects middle-class people and low-income workers. Is there a difference that you could discern? I don't know if the jobs that these workers find are different. If so, what might the implications be?
4:45 p.m.
Professor, Lead Investigator, Poverty and Employment Precarity in Southern Ontario, McMaster University, As an Individual
One of the things our research is trying to do is to separate this notion of precarious employment from that of low-wage employment; they're not quite the same. It's certainly true, though, that the majority of people in low-wage employment will also find themselves in precarious employment. They'll be in jobs that don't have benefits. They don't have control over their schedule. They're on short-term contracts and are perhaps employed through a temp agency. But our research is also showing us that there are a number of people in precarious employment with those insecure characteristics but who are not low-waged.
If you think about the change that's taking place in our economy, it's in the media, in the arts, in education—much of university teaching is now done by contract workers—and in health care. We've seen real growth in these middle-income jobs, but these are jobs that are time-limited. They may be six-month jobs or one-month jobs. They often are jobs that don't have any benefits beyond the wage. So what we have is a growing group of what we would call middle-class Canadians, but they're not in the kinds of jobs that middle-class Canadians had 20 or 30 years ago, so that once you had that job, you expected to keep that job for 20 or 30 years. Nowadays people are moving from job to job. There's uncertainty. Part of it is just the result of rapid technical change.
If you got a job with Ford in 1906 when they started making Model Ts in Windsor, you could still be working at Ford, because they're still in Windsor. But if you got a job making BlackBerrys with RIM in 1998, you wouldn't have a job now, because they don't make BlackBerrys anymore, and that's just the pace of technology.
Employers are also hiring a smaller core of permanent workers and surrounding that with a much larger ring of contract and temporary workers. Sometimes those are very well-paid jobs, but they're not permanent, and I think that's what we need to deal with as a society.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
You also go on to talk in your report about precarious employment's harmful effects on individuals, families, and community life. Delaying having children is one example. I wonder if you could talk a little further about some of the implications that you've picked up in the consequences of this new trend of precarious employment.
4:45 p.m.
Professor, Lead Investigator, Poverty and Employment Precarity in Southern Ontario, McMaster University, As an Individual
Well, certainly young people are delaying forming households. We spoke to a number of people and they said: “Are you kidding? Having a kid is a permanent commitment, and if I don't have a permanent job, how do I finance that?” I think we're seeing this in house purchases as well. The banks don't have precarious loans. They want the same amount of money each month, but if your income flow is not the same each month, how do you pay that money?
But I think the more serious issue here is what actually goes on inside the household. For instance, if my kid would like me to coach their ball team, that means I have to commit to every Wednesday night. I don't know if I can do that, because I'm not sure which Wednesdays I have to work; I don't have control of my schedule if I'm working through a temp agency. So suddenly we lose that community support from parents to their children.
I think there's also just the stress inside the household of not knowing what income you're going to have in six months. Perhaps your child would like to go to summer camp. You can afford it this summer, but you're saying to yourself, “Maybe I had better not spend that $2,000 this summer, because if I don't have that job next year, I may need that $2,000 to put food on the table.” So the kind of stresses and imbalances this is creating in households, I think, lead us to think about how we can support these kinds of new households.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Gouda of Career Edge, I found your report really quite interesting. On page 3 you talk about almost 400,000 “invisible workers”. I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about what you meant by that.
4:45 p.m.
President, Career Edge Organization
Basically this is a result of what we found in terms of part-time workers and what I referred to as the queueing effect, as economists call it. The unemployment rates exclude individuals who are not working but who are sufficiently active in their job search, so they are considered part of the labour market. That's where the 400,000 comes from.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
I see.
In the case of the government, not as a regulator but as an employer, there have been a number of hiring freezes, of course, federally and otherwise. What impact do those have on the kinds of young people you've studied? For example, how long will the government be able to take advantage of people and take advantage of the skills they've trained them for in a job, if in fact 90 days later it's all over?
4:50 p.m.
President, Career Edge Organization
This is one of the objections that I hear quite often when I speak with employers, and governments—municipal, federal, and provincial—are employers. Freezes and head-count issues are a reality, and in some ways, what we are suggesting actually helps both sides in that the government—or the employer—does not have to make a long-term commitment to these folks. We are talking about a four- to twelve-month internship. That has been enough, historically speaking over the last 17 years, to launch these people's careers.
There are always things that need to be done. Whether we're talking about corporate Canada, or the private sector, or the public sector, those things need to be done. Sometimes when you can't bring in full-time workers and put aside a head count for it, bringing in an intern is the right solution. So it's actually an opportunity as opposed to an issue, as far as we see it.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
You have about 20 seconds, if you can ask a very quick question.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
I wanted to ask Mr. Joe from the AFN a question.
With regard to the kinds of programs you've witnessed, which ones are the most effective? Some of them are run by government, NGOs, your association. What are the most successful programs in supporting first nation students?
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
I love it when colleagues do this to me. I give them a short time—
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
Co-Chair, National Youth Council, Assembly of First Nations
I think it's our ASETS program.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
Mr. Lewchuk, just quickly, what is the Magna model?
4:50 p.m.
Professor, Lead Investigator, Poverty and Employment Precarity in Southern Ontario, McMaster University, As an Individual
I assume you're talking about the Magna corporation, the auto parts maker.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
Well, I'm referring to a couple of your recent studies, The Magna Model in Canada and The Magna Model in Canada and Mexico. I'm just curious about the Magna model. Perhaps you could explain it to the committee.