Mr. Van Kesteren.
Evidence of meeting #36 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employers.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #36 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employers.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON
On a point of order, Chair, I did not say that.
You need to go back to the blues.
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I'm not saying that you did say that; I'm paraphrasing the owner who you talked to...in your comments.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I'm not saying that Mr. Van Kesteren said that; I'm saying that's what the owner he talked to said. People will be able to refer to the answer because it's on record.
Ms. Jennison-Yung, I'd like you to actually confirm for me if that's what happened there. Basically you got fired, and the justification given to you was that...?
5:55 p.m.
As an Individual
We were given no reason at all. We were just dismissed.
May 15th, 2014 / 5:55 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Okay. We'll see on the record what reason the owner gave when he talked to Mr. Van Kesteren.
The topic of procedure was brought up, and how things happen. Mr. Saxton knows very well that we will be voting in committee on the over-300-page bill. On some of the things we'll be voting in favour, and on some of the things we'll be voting against. But in the House we'll be stuck having one single vote on more than 300 pages of legislation, of which temporary foreign workers will be about two pages. So that's the way it works.
I would like to go back to Mr. Campbell and address the issue of demutualization.
Last year, as part of this committee's work, we had a briefing on demutualization. At that meeting, we talked a great deal about the Economical Mutual Insurance Company.
Are you familiar with the situation?
5:55 p.m.
General Counsel, Corporate Secretary, PEI Mutual Insurance Company
I'm somewhat familiar with the situation, yes.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
In a minute or so, could you summarize it for us so that we understand it clearly? This issue is extremely complex.
5:55 p.m.
General Counsel, Corporate Secretary, PEI Mutual Insurance Company
It is our understanding that Economical Mutual wishes to demutualize. They currently have, as I said, 800,000 policyholders; however, less than 1,000 of them claim to be mutual policyholders.
In the mutual, the members are the owners of the company. I talked about the property rights issue earlier in my presentation. In a demutualization of Economical, with $1.6 billion in surplus plus the value of the business as a book of business, the value to each of those fewer than 1,000 policyholders would be significant.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
So in this particular case, just under 1,000 individuals are mutual policy holders, but around 1 million people are regular policy holders. Through demutualization, those with mutual policies that have accumulated over 125 years, would each have $1.6 billion in surplus, while those with regular policies would be left out in the cold.
Is that right?
5:55 p.m.
General Counsel, Corporate Secretary, PEI Mutual Insurance Company
I think that's the original intent. I don't know what their intent is now. Of course, their intent will be guided by the laws and regulations that are put in place by government.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Given the situation and the intent of Economical Mutual Insurance Company at the time, and based on the situation we have experienced in the past, what do you think the impact will be if the legislation proposed by the government is enforced?
5:55 p.m.
General Counsel, Corporate Secretary, PEI Mutual Insurance Company
The proposed legislation is opening the door to creation of regulations, so the regulations will further define what those rules look like.
One of the provisions in the bill that's under consideration deals with the minister's ability to defer questions, and perhaps ownership questions, to the courts. It's my view that this is really a public policy decision that needs to be addressed with public input, instead of a technical legal argument on a novel area of law, and I think Parliament is best suited to deal with the question.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome to our witnesses.
Mr. Campbell, I'd like to pick up on the thought that the rules surrounding demutualization and ownership rules would be better made by political entities rather than judicial ones. I find that a little bit surprising, because most of the time when it comes to division of property and assets, that ends up being a court-regulated process anyway.
5:55 p.m.
General Counsel, Corporate Secretary, PEI Mutual Insurance Company
The court may take a strict property rights interpretation, whereas when you look at the creation and formation of Economical Mutual, or any mutual for that matter, what was the intent of that surplus? What was the intent of the ownership? How did the ownership structure wind up at 1,000 members?
I think you understand what I'm saying; do you?
6 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS
No, no, that's an interesting statement, but I don't think we can take it just on a single case. I mean, obviously, for mutualized companies, and insurance companies in this case, there has to be a process for demutualization. That process has to be fair and equitable and allow shareholders to be able to get their assets, if they have assets in the company, out of the company. That's what's intended in the budget bill.
I do take a little bit of exception to something. You made a comment about mutual insurance companies being the only insurance companies for rural Canada. You know what? I farmed for 25 years, and I used a mutual insurance company in Atlantic Canada. I had great service and a great agent. I still run a very modest little farming operation, but I don't use a mutual insurance company anymore. I didn't get anything for the assets I invested with the company; plus my insurance is cheaper, and I have more of it.
So there are two sides to that, and I think that needs to be put on the record: there are other companies. In this case, I think competition is.... Whether it's good or bad, it's not for us to decide, but it's fair.
6 p.m.
General Counsel, Corporate Secretary, PEI Mutual Insurance Company
Yes. I know that in our experience as a mutual company, we are a company that will consider business that stock companies do not or that other insurers do not. In your case, you may be a very favourable risk. Oftentimes stock companies, big companies, like to cherry-pick risk. So that may be a compliment to you.
6 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS
For example, there's a difference in insuring my tractor for the highway. Every farmer needs PL and PD in order to go on the highway with a farm vehicle. Under a private insurance company, it's considerably cheaper, almost half, than under a mutual insurance company. So every case is separate: that's what I'm trying to say. I appreciate your testimony, but I want to put that on the record.
To John McAvity from the Canadian Museums Association, two entities that are out there, the virtual museum of Canada with that online presence, and the Canadian encyclopedia of music and the directory of Canadian biography, these are newer online resources that never used to exist. They have comprehensive information in them available now to all of Canada's museums to assist in the development of those.
How accessible are they to your organization? How often do you use them? How important are they to you?
6 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Museums Association
Actually, they're public programs. They're not new programs. They've been in existence for a number of years, and they are available to all Canadians. They're open and accessible. That, to us, is a very important asset.
Our concern is simply in the transfer to the Museum of History. Will they be bound by narrower criteria that is the role of the Museum of History, or will they be broader, to include art, natural science, history, technology, other disciplines, other subjects? We would argue for the broadest possible application.
6 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Rajotte
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Keddy.
We'll go to Ms. Sims, please.
6 p.m.
NDP
Jinny Sims NDP Newton—North Delta, BC
My question is for Ms. Jennison-Yung again.
Let me see. The government has reduced red tape, which has meant that the temporary foreign worker program has now ballooned to well over 350,000. Almost every day in the media, we are seeing stories of abuse. More people came forward today, as was witnessed on TV.
You lived in this community for a long time, yes or no?