Finance Committee on Oct. 8th, 2014

[Bard Golightly]

I don't have those kinds of values with me today, but we can certainly put our heads down and come back with specifics on that.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I think it's an excellent idea, and I would encourage you to do so.

My next question is to Mr. Woodside of the FCM or to Jeff Lehman of the Large Urban Mayors' Caucus of Ontario.

I was intrigued by how often the words “climate change” came up in your presentations. I was intrigued by “mitigation” and “adaptation”.

Do you think the government should be dealing with its share of the causes of climate change? Is that something you think would logically follow, and has either of you, as a mayor or within FCM, taken a resolution on the issue of what Canada should be doing?

[Brad Woodside]

Climate change wasn't in my presentation, but it's something I'm certainly prepared to talk about. It's something that is very important to all Canadians, and we all have a piece to participate in.

There are so many examples across the country. Jeff was talking about Calgary.

I can bring it right into New Brunswick. Just a short while ago we were without any power for six days.

We are seeing things in this country that we've never seen before, and I think it's not just a matter of dealing with it today, but we also have to take preventative measures to bring down CO₂ levels, for example, that are causing the greenhouse gases.

We all have a role to play. We do it in Fredericton, where we have the eighth-freshest air in the world, yet I've challenged my community to do more for the environment.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

But with respect, your submission does refer to climate change. You say that the TD Bank Group estimates that extreme weather events alone will cost Canadians $5 billion a year by 2020. You talked about working with municipalities to establish critical disaster mitigation strategies, which you've linked to weather and climate change matters.

According to a report yesterday by independent auditors, the federal government won't even reach its own targets for emissions, and it hasn't brought the oil and gas industry together to talk about emissions. Surely we should be dealing with causes, not just effects.

Would you not agree?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Could we have just a brief response, please?

[Brad Woodside]

Look, there is plenty of blame to go around when it comes to the planet and what we're doing and what we're not doing, and we all have to share in that responsibility, and Canada has to do its part just as any other country does.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

There are 10 seconds left, Mr. Lehman, if you want to add something in 10 seconds.

[Jeff Lehman]

I would simply say that, as mayors, we're the ones who have to cope with the reality of the impacts of the severe weather. We now need a national strategy to do this.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Rankin.

Mr. Van Kesteren, please.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you all for coming.

Mr. Rankin is sucking me in and I'm taking the bait.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

This is an interesting topic of discussion. We contribute to 2% of the carbon dioxide emissions. We could have a long debate, which I really don't want to get into, on whether or not we've done our share of the reduction of that. The point of the matter is that ultimately the effect is negligible.

I'm going to fire it right back to you: what are you doing as municipalities to combat the effect? It's easy to say that the government needs to make all these changes. I should point out as well that it was only because we had a budget that was being balanced that we were able to handle what happened in Calgary.

Incidentally, I checked the web, and even coming right from CBC, they explained the situation in Calgary. Things were melting on the mountain, we had a little bit of rain, we had a couple of systems that blocked, the stars lined up the wrong way, and we had this horrendous flood.

Those things have always happened, and those things will continue to happen. But if you're convinced that we need a contingency plan from the federal government, what are the municipalities doing to augment it?

[Brad Woodside]

I can certainly tell you what we're doing in my municipality. We've reached every level of conservation, according to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities' goals and objectives, one of probably only five communities in the country that have done so. We have certainly reduced our footprint. We're not an industrial kind of place, yet five years ago I challenged the community to do better and to do our share. They really accepted that.

So that's what we're doing.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Great, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

I'm going to lead Mr. Lehman in another direction, if I could. Again, the Building Canada fund is a $55-billion plan. It's the first time, at least to my knowledge, the federal government has embarked in the future to assist municipalities.

The reason this is possible is that this government has made it a priority to get our house in order. We can only do it because we have the money. There's only one taxpayer, be it the municipality, be it the province, or be it the federal government. The federal government has embarked on something that enables you, as a municipality, to do some of those things that you were talking about.

What's your responsibility, as a municipality, to match those funds? I'm just asking the question. It's a loaded question, but I want you to answer that, Mr. Lehman.

[Jeff Lehman]

Sure.

In my opinion, the one-third, one-third, one-third model is the right way to go. I believe it is our responsibility, at all three levels of government, to address those kinds of challenges.

I would praise the federal government for balancing the budget. I think that's hugely important. I think it now allows investments to be made that can address the big challenges facing the country. I do happen to think this is one of them.

As municipalities, my quick example—because you asked about effects—is that we just built a couple of bridges over our Lakeshore Drive that are oversized, because the stormwater flows, according to our conservation authority, have pretty dramatically increased. Basically, the modelling said that you have to build them 30% bigger than you used to. There was a $6-million price tag associated with that.

That's the kind of effect it's already having on our capital budget.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have about 30 seconds, Mr. Van Kesteren.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

That's the unfortunate thing about this place, we're so pressed for time.

I recognize that, and I applaud you for the efforts you're making. But are you focusing enough on the municipal side as well of getting your house in order? That's the point I wanted to make. The only way that we can pay a third, and the only way that the province.... New Brunswick is a perfect example of that.

When municipalities get together, do you talk about those important things, about balancing your own budget too, so that you can come to the table with a third, as the federal government has, and I hope as the provincial government has?

[Brad Woodside]

The answer to that is absolutely yes.

[Jeff Lehman]

We've never run a deficit.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Van Kesteren.

We'll go to Mr. Adler please.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate your all being here this afternoon. It's a very interesting discussion. However, in my very limited time I'll focus initially on Mr. Golightly.

After I first got elected in 2011 a fellow came to me wondering why he couldn't take advantage of the home renovation tax credit. He pulled out a piece of paper and said there were the renovations he did on his home, and here was a piece of paper to show that he paid for them. It was just an eight-and-a-half by 11 piece of paper, with the numbers $500, $5,000, $2,000, $3,000 on it, and at the bottom the wording that the contractor had received his payment in cash. He was curious why he wasn't eligible to take advantage of the housing tax credit.

How much of a problem is the underground economy? I hear from people all the time who tell me that they've got tradespeople coming into their home to renovate their kitchen, to build an addition to their home, and who legitimately only want the job if they are going to be paid in cash. How much of a problem is that in the home building industry?

[Bard Golightly]

It's a good question. As I indicated earlier, I think we could further study that question. If you want a quick opinion, I would suggest that at least half the renovation business currently in Canada is being done on a cash basis. That has serious ramifications in terms of safety, quality, taxation, all those things.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

It's much more than a taxation or revenue issue.

[Bard Golightly]

No question.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

It's quality of workmanship and materials, and some of the things that go into homes are health related. If they're getting knock-off goods, there's no quality control whatsoever. What can we do as a government, as home builders in partnership, to make sure we can ultimately get that 50% down to 0% to make sure that everybody complies, all trades comply, with the law?