Evidence of meeting #62 for Finance in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was clauses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alexandra MacLean  Director, Tax Legislation, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Miodrag Jovanovic  Director, Personal Income Tax, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Trevor McGowan  Senior Chief, International Inbound Investments, Department of Finance
Pierre Mercille  Senior Legislative Chief, Sales Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Denis Martel  Director, Patent Policy Directorate, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Shari Currie  Acting Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Marie-Claude Day  Legal Counsel, Department of Transport
Stephen Van Dine  Director General, Northern Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Pamela Miller  Director General, Telecommunications Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Tamara Rudge  Director, Port Policy, Department of Transport
Sean Jorgensen  Director, Strategic Policy and Integration, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Sylvain Segard  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Planning and International Affairs Branch, Public Health Agency of Canada
Colin Spencer James  Director, Policy and Program Design, Temporary Foreign Workers, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Mark Pearson  Director General, External Relations, Science and Policy Integration Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Ekaterina Ohandjanian  Legal Counsel, Department of Natural Resources

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay, the recorded vote will apply to both.

(Clauses 225 and 226 agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

Okay, those two clauses carry.

I want to thank our officials for being here, and I hope you enjoyed the debate this evening.

Colleagues, let's deal with division 15. Are there any comments on division 15?

Hearing none, we'll go right to the vote on division 15. Shall clause 227 carry?

(Clause 227 agreed to)

We'll go to division 16. We'll ask the officials to come forward as there are amendments in this division. This deals with clauses 228 and 231.

We want to welcome our officials here for this division.

(On clause 228)

Let's do clause 228, then.

7:05 p.m.

NDP

Guy Caron NDP Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Mr. Chair, this provision will allow the government to sell federal assets to port authorities, which also includes some federal ports.

Starting with the questions we have and those we could also have asked about the subject, given the impact a decision like this, or legislative changes like these, could have, much more could clearly have been done to study this issue. A number of our concerns have not yet been responded to, either by witnesses or by officials.

I am very happy with the work we have done up to now, but the answers we received raised a lot of other questions.

In the current situation, where we do not have the time to debate or discuss this amendment to the legislation adequately, it will be impossible for us to vote in favour of clause 228, which deals specifically with the acquisition of federal assets by port authorities.

The decision will be different for the rest of the clauses in this division.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay.

Shall clause 228 carry?

7:05 p.m.

An hon. member

A recorded vote...?

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay.

(Clause 228 agreed to: yeas 6; nays 3)

(Clause 229 and 230 agreed to)

(On clause 231)

We have two amendments under clause 231. We have Green Party-8 and Green Party-9.

Ms. May, do you want to deal with them together or separately? It's your choice.

7:05 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Chair, if I deal with them together, would that be two minutes?

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Two minutes to deal with both of them, if you wish.

November 26th, 2014 / 7:05 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Okay.

It strikes me, Mr. Chair and other members of the committee, that this is one of the examples of why it's so dangerous to make substantive changes to so many acts in an omnibus bill.

Division 16, which changes the Canada Marine Act, I don't believe had anything like proper scrutiny or examination. When I was reviewing it, I became concerned about some of the implications and contacted West Coast Environmental Law. They thought this was quite troubling, but they hadn't heard of it or seen it or been able to testify to it.

The first part of the amendments would delete the sections of the bill that allow cabinet to make rules allowing for information regarding activities in ports to be kept confidential; authorize the destruction of documents created or submitted in respect of activities in ports; set out the rules of procedure for hearings in relation to projects and activities in ports; and give to any person or body, including a province, port authority, or industrial actor, the power to make rules of procedure for such hearings.

These are extremely strange, sweeping changes to the management of port authorities, involving secrecy, destruction of documents, and allowing industry to have input into organizing hearings. West Coast Environmental Law put forward the following scenario based on these changes. They wrote:

...Cabinet could: sell a port to a port authority, hand over control of LNG facilities in that port to the province of B.C., pass into federal law any documents or provincial statutory instruments related to the operation of LNG facilities without making those documents public, authorize facilities and regulators to destroy or keep confidential any information that may be relevant to LNG operations, and appoint a tribunal comprised of industry representatives to consider any disputes regarding those LNG facilities and to set out the rules of procedure for hearing those disputes.

In other words, the potential use of these sections to accomplish some fairly nefarious things of high importance to people in my province has received no review at all by witnesses, nor adequate debate in this committee. It all comes down to my one minute on this amendment, which will surely fail. However, I'd like to draw attention to the potential of what's going to happen here.

It's one minute per amendment; thank you, Joe.

The next part, of course, is an attempt to ensure that for greater certainty, the undertakings and changes found within the above sections will be required to be subject to the requirements of what remains of the Fisheries Act, the Species at Risk Act, the Navigation Protection Act, the navigable waters protection act, the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act, 2012. This is pretty weak protection, given the sweeping changes that are proposed in this section.

7:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Ms. May.

We'll go to Mr. Cullen on discussion and debate.

7:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

To make a small correction to Ms. May, we did have some examination of this section. I don't believe we had a satisfying analysis just in terms of what the scenarios could be and what the impacts could be. We did try to design what those scenarios might look like, specifically in a port in my riding in Prince Rupert. There are other members around the table who are aware of ports and trying to understand the scenario, trying to understand what the government was trying enable.

Certainly around LNGs specifically, this seems to be some establishment to enable that industry to exist at a greater scale in British Columbia, which in and of itself is a policy question for government, for the people in British Columbia, and for the communities that are impacted. The concerns that we had, and why we'll be voting for this particular amendment, are to allow for greater transparency and greater accountability of the decisions that get made. Most communities don't have a great deal of access to their port authorities. Many of the port authorities try to do good work. But there isn't exactly a natural and open forum for those discussions.

When getting into the transport of energy and ports now being able to, under these provisions, acquire land and then be able to, under that acquirement, have a different process for LNG and other energy terminuses to be approved, this is concerning to us. We would hope to have, if a healthy debate about energy policy in Canada were suddenly an initiative that government members would be interested in, more transparency as to this process.

Perhaps through you, Chair, to our witnesses, I could ask for some comment.

I'm not sure if you've reviewed this particular amendment and what its effect might be. Does it allow for that sense of greater accountability of public input into the process that a port might go through in the acquiring of some federal port lands?

7:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Do you have any comment on the amendment or the clause in general, Ms. Rudge?

7:10 p.m.

Tamara Rudge Director, Port Policy, Department of Transport

To answer, Mr. Chair, this part—her amendment to remove (k) through (n)—is not connected to the acquiring of federal port lands. This is the enabling powers to make regulations, similar to an act that's already in Parliament, the First Nations industrial commercialization act.

In the case we're talking about, the BC Oil and Gas Commission has rules about keeping documents and having to provide those to the regulators so that they don't destroy documents and that they have access to provide adequate oversight of this facility. So it's more to be able to adopt B.C.'s...that already has these types of regulations.

7:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Through you, Chair, the specific question with respect to what the impact of this amendment might be with regard to the keeping of those documents, the public offering of those documents....

7:10 p.m.

Director, Port Policy, Department of Transport

Tamara Rudge

I think this actually provides greater protection and without them there would be nothing governing the proponents.

7:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Sorry, I'm not making my question specific enough.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Maybe not.

You're speaking about the amendments in the legislation.

7:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

The second amendment that is proposed by Ms. May here, that's what I'm asking for. I don't know, and you can say you just haven't looked at this yet, but Ms. May has made an amendment to this amendment under the act that you're seeking to make.

Is it your suggestion that if this amendment were to go through there would be less holding of documentation? I'm trying to understand what you're thinking.

7:15 p.m.

Director, Port Policy, Department of Transport

Tamara Rudge

Yes, that's what I'm saying. She's proposing to remove them but this is so that regulations can outline how you have to maintain your documents and the BC Oil and Gas Commission regs already have stuff about maintaining documents.

7:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Sorry, Chair, just to finish this off, is the deferral of this authority given over to groups like the BC Oil and Gas Commission or equivalents in other provinces, away from the federal government in terms of the maintenance of documents and the holding of negotiations that went on? Is that what this portion of the act does?

7:15 p.m.

Director, Port Policy, Department of Transport

Tamara Rudge

It will enable B.C. to use their oversight mechanism....

7:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Who has the oversight right now?

7:15 p.m.

Director, Port Policy, Department of Transport

Tamara Rudge

Well, right now it wouldn't be subject to a special oversight regime, so this is additional. With these provisions we'll be able to adopt that regime.

7:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Okay.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay.

Next, Mr. Allen, please.

7:15 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Just a quick follow up question to Mr. Cullen's. If I understand correctly, with the amendment we would be facing, as you've indicated here, it would take out the ability to actually regulate under these for fines and establishing offences and anything else that we don't have today. By adding this amendment we'd be taking out the power to actually create regulations to do that. Is that correct?