Fisheries Committee on April 18th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

I call the meeting to order. My name is Fabian Manning. I'm a member of Parliament from the Avalon riding in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Before we begin our formal meeting today, I would like to first thank you for your presence here.

Out of respect for the sealers who were lost a short time ago, and for their families and friends, I would ask that all members and everybody present participate in a moment of silence. Our thoughts and prayers are with them. I would ask everyone in the hall to stand.

[A moment of silence observed]

Thank you very much.

Most members of Parliament you see around the table today represent rural parts of Canada, and many of us have many small communities with people who earn their livelihoods from the sea. The tragedy that you experienced here a short time ago is felt right across the country, especially in the small communities that we all represent.

We are the Standing Committee of Fisheries and Oceans for the Parliament of Canada. Over the past several months we have been conducting a study into the small craft harbours program, which falls under the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

Prior to Christmas, we presented an interim report to the House of Commons, outlining some of the issues and concerns that we see with the program. Before the summer recess we hope to present a final report, which will encompass all the meetings we've had, prior to Christmas and since. Over the past week we visited Newfoundland and Labrador, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, and today we are here in Quebec.

Part and parcel of our final report will be the visits we've made this week, what we have seen in our tours of marine facilities, and what we have heard from witnesses such as yourselves. This is not just about infrastructure, it's not just about wharves, slipways, and breakwaters; it also includes the opportunity to hear from you, the volunteers and harbour authorities in the communities, about the frustrations you sometimes have or the opportunities that are yours through your work and through your volunteer work with harbour authorities.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Manning.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for having come here today. I would like to point out to you that the work that we are doing today is part of an ongoing process. This process started several years ago. We don't want it to take another few years before we're able to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Over the past few years we have had an opportunity to examine this issue and over the past few months in particular we have had an opportunity to meet people during our hearings in Ottawa.

Going to Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, this morning, and Saint Majorique today, has taught us something new each time. We have been told about the lack of funding, problems with small craft harbours and needs considered to be essential. Meeting with you today will give us an even more detailed picture of what is happening. That is why it is important that the committee be here.

The purpose of the study we will be tabling soon is to put pressure on the department and the government. We don't need a miracle, we simply need a lot more money. Infrastructure will then be able to adequately and safely meet these needs. This is an issue of fairness.

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Blais.

I understand our first witness will be Mr. Morissette. The floor is yours, sir.

[Stéphane Morissette, Vice-President, Regroupement des mariculteurs du Québec]

Good afternoon. My name is Stéphane Morissette and I am the Vice-President of the Regroupement des mariculteurs du Québec.

The development of aquaculture in Quebec has been following a global trend that, over the next few years, will see aquaculture products displacing products in total volume.

Aquaculture has been growing annually by 15% in Quebec. This industry, that mainly involves mussel and scallop farming, now represents approximately 20 businesses that provide approximately 120 jobs. Over the past 15 years, an industry support network has been established in order to create an environment that fosters the development of marine aquaculture.

The marine aquaculture industry in Quebec is pleased to see, on paper at least, that the vision, guiding principles, mandates, and challenges of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans directly reflect the needs of marine farmers, especially in terms of port infrastructures.

On the north shore, four out of the six outfits that are operating or being developed own their own wharf. The two others are currently using municipal boat- launching ramps. In the Magdalen Islands, the outfits operating out of the Havre-aux-Maisons lagoon are using a private wharf, whereas in Grande-Entrée they're using the fishers' wharf.

The situation is very problematic in the Gaspésie. In this area, these businesses are all in the baie des Chaleurs, in Carleton and in the baie de Gaspé, in Gaspé itself. In Carleton, the DFO wharf's capacity has been exceeded—there are only two spots—and marine farmers have had to use Transport Canada's wharf. Furthermore, the fishers' wharf is in such a state of disrepair that the vessels' safety is not guaranteed. In Gaspé, there are no port facilities for fishers or marine farmers. Our marine farmers have to berth at the Transport Canada wharf, where they are tolerated. However, Transport Canada's wharves are not adapted to fishing. These wharves are made for large vessels and the heavy industry. Furthermore, Transport Canada's tariffs are much higher than those of the harbour authorities for DFO's fishing wharves. In both Gaspé and Carleton, the service that is provided by DFO and Transport Canada are not adequate for marine farmers.

They have essentially the same needs as the fishers in both the Carleton and Gaspé regions: the wharves can accommodate approximately ten boats that have a one to two-ton capacity crane, wharves that can provide fresh water and electricity, and that have the facilities for disposing of waste water. Furthermore, an 150,000 square feet plot is also necessary for the purposes of storing equipment, providing access to fuel supplies, and allowing for a boat-launching ramp.

The marine aquaculture industry in Quebec would like the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, whose mandate it is to serve marine aquaculture clientele, to resolve this problem and find satisfactory short-term solutions for businesses involved in marine aquaculture. DFO could look at the situation in the Maritime provinces and the Atlantic, where aquaculture is well established in the marine environment, in order to provide marine aquaculture businesses with the marine services that they are entitled to.The marine aquaculture industry is calling on the department to play the role it is responsible for in order to create conditions that are conducive to the consolidation and development of marine aquaculture in Quebec, especially in terms of port facilities.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Morissette.

Ms. Collin.

[Anita Collin, Spokeswoman, Quai de Saint-Georges-de-Malbaie]

Good afternoon. I represent the wharf in La Malbaie, a harbour with 19 fishers—15 who fish lobster, and 4 who fish crab. They employ about 30 people. Fishing is their sole source of income. There are two fish plants that employ on average about 50 individuals who count on this seasonal employment to qualify for employment insurance, which is their only income for the rest of the year.

The income people receive from these jobs is what allows local businesses to survive. In addition, we live in a tourist region that has an outstanding view of the Percé Rock, and this is the pride and joy of our town. One of the two plants is among the oldest in Eastern Canada.

We must preserve our heritage.

The pitiful state of the wharf is catastrophic for this little community. People are afraid there will be a terrible accident and that they will lose someone close to them. During the tourist season, some days there are over 100 people on the wharf, even though the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has closed it to pedestrians. People walk on the wharf to fish mackerel and to admire the fabulous view.

We are simply asking that our government do what is required so that we can earn our living safely. We hope that it will understand this plea from the people of our town—they want to continue living in the beautiful Gaspé Peninsula and to keep the few young people we have left. This wharf could collapse at any time. Please do not wait until one or several people die there: that would be the end of these little towns. And who would be responsible for this? Our government.

For several years now, these people have been trying to get their message across and to say how distraught they are that the government is doing everything it can to close down their little region, the Gaspé, and to force our young people to move to major cities to find work, leaving their families and their hearts behind.

We are calling on the government to take the appropriate steps so that we can continue to work and to carry on for our seniors, who gave everything they had to preserve their region, which is such a good place to live. We are calling on the government to assume its responsibilities and to rebuild this wharf. Some of our fishers have to leave their boats in towns that are several kilometres away from where they live. As you know, gas prices have become a major factor at the moment.

The people, the fishers and the counsellor of these small towns thank you for taking the time to come and listen to us. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts, and we hope that something positive will come out of this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Ms. Collin.

I'll try my French. The floor goes to Ms. Mathurin. Is that close enough for a Newfoundlander?

I understand you have two statements to make, so feel free.

[Carmelle Mathurin, Administration portuaire de L'Anse-à-Valleau]

My first presentation is on the port authority in L'Anse-à-Valleau. I will be making the second presentation for Mr. Luc Legresley, who is currently at a meeting in Quebec City for the national level. He wrote a presentation, and I will be making the points he wanted to raise with you.

The port authority in L'Anse-à-Valleau has been in place since April 2, 1991—some 17 years. Initially, there were six active members, but for five years, there have only been two: Marcel Mathurin, the president, and myself, the secretary. The fishing harbour in L'Anse-à-Valleau is used by fishers and by pleasure boat owners. It is located between Cloridorme and Rivière-au-Renard. So it can be used if there is a storm, because of its sheltered geographic location.

There is only one employee during the summer, a student funded by the government under the Summer Career Placement Program. This employee performs the following duties: watch-person responsibilities, recording the boats for invoicing and garbage collection. Other responsibilities—wharf inspection, invoicing of users, work to ensure that the wharf is functional for the opening of the fishing season, keeping the accounting up-to-date, calculating the summer student's pay, closing the wharf in the fall, and so on—are performed by the members of the port authority on a volunteer basis.

Here are the points the port authority would like to raise. One wharf was closed for five years. The port authority had to apply pressure for it to be demolished, because it had become very dangerous. The break-water entrance on the north side was broken and the captains of the large boats are afraid to tie up at the wharf, because the sea has thrown up some large rocks at its entrance. The wooden frame is broken and should be replaced by large protective rocks.

The port authority has had some pontoons with walkways built, has had the surface of the wharf repaired over a distance of 400 feet and has had the access road to the harbour repaired as well.

Our port authority is asking that some digging work be done at the harbour, that the launching ramp be repaired and that more money be provided to support volunteers.

In closing, we have a beautiful fishing harbour and we want to keep it for a long time. However, in order to do that, we need more assistance from the government. If my father were to resign, the port authority would probably cease to exist.

Thank you.

Shall I continue, or may I take a break to catch my breath?

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

You can wait if you want to and let Mr. Dufresne go, and then we'll come back to you. Catch your breath and have a glass of water, and we'll be back to you in a moment.

I'll try my French again: Mr. Dufresne, it is your turn. Go ahead.

[Jacques Dufresne, Administration portuaire de Rivière-au-Renard]

I am Jacques Dufresne of the Rivière-au-Renard harbour authority.

About a month ago, the media reported that Rivière-au-Renard was doing very well because it was a large port with a high volume. Let me tell you why. In 2001, Fisheries and Oceans allocated $700,000 to plan a rationalization project, including the rock filling of wharves, and the demolition and installation of pontoons within the harbour. We were technically ready and had properly defined our needs. We had also drafted the things that were to be done. We were lucky to have everything we needed.

At the meeting that dealt with the rationalization, the harbour authority presented its project, which was rather well developed. Everyone supported it and we began to rebuild the facilities. Of course, that represented a lot of work. Things just didn't come out of the blue. The harbour authorities had to work very hard. We did, however, receive a lot of technical support from engineers and harbour authority managers. In the course of the process, we came to realize that harbour authority managers at a regional level were more concerned with slashing budgets or managing in a very cost-efficient manner. In my view, there was a lack of vision for the development of the port and a lack of technical assistance.

I came away from the discussions that were held in the Gaspé with the sense that harbour authorities do not have the vision and technical assistance needed to make project proposals. The people who manage those administrations, whether they come from Quebec City or Montreal, also lack the required technical knowledge and basically work to maintain tight control over operations, save money and make use of volunteers to carry out all the work. That might be one of the problems.

A wharf can hold surprises. I'd compare it to an iceberg: one-eighth of it is visible above the surface, but the rest is under water. It is quite difficult for a harbour authority that might not have the required skills to estimate how much it will cost to repair part of a wharf or paving stone. If there is a tear or a gaping hole under water, you might well repair the wharf, but it won't solve the problem. A number of wharves are in a bad state. I had an opportunity to get an underwater view of every single wharf in Quebec. I think everyone is full of good intentions, but we should perhaps change the way we do things.

Up-to-date, we have invested $11 million in Rivière-au-Renard and we'll need to inject another 4 or 5 million. Because we submitted structured and well-founded projects, we were able to carry them out without any problems, contrary to what we might have thought. But in order for a harbour authority to carry out such projects... Few people have what it takes to carry them out. In my view, that's a problem.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans no longer offers that service. In the past, Public Works Canada regularly came to conduct structural analyses and hold discussions with harbour authorities. However, that is increasingly no longer the case and harbour authorities are less and less aware of the state of their wharves. They try to carry out minor repairs as best they can, which explains the results we are seeing today. If we are to save harbour authorities, technical assistance has to be provided and creative solutions have to be found. That would change a lot of things.

That's all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Mr. Dufresne.

We'll go back to Ms. Mathurin.

[Carmelle Mathurin]

In 2001-2002, a decision was made to change the budget allocation formula, which made Quebec lose $1 million a year. Quebec's share amounts to 8.74%. Since that loss of $1 million, Quebec harbour authorities asked that the budget allocation formula be changed, but it wasn't, out of fear of reprisal from the other regions. And yet, studies clearly showed that the Quebec region was disadvantaged by the new budget allocation formula. It is interesting to note that as a result of a decision Quebec lost $1 million. But since that time, the Quebec region has to continually justify itself in order for the formula to be reviewed and adapted to its needs.

To date, Quebec has lost $7 million, which is a lot of money for its fishing harbours. However, with regard to those $7 million, I must point out that the current formula has been applied for each dollar invested by the Government of Canada. Consequently, Quebec's shortfall over the past seven years amounts to more than $7 million.

In 2005, during a forum that was held in Gaspé, all of Quebec's harbour authorities expressed their profound disappointment and demanded additional funding from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. A press conference was organized and a letter was sent to the minister for that purpose. Quebec harbour authorities threatened to resign if the Canadian government did not allocate more funds. We also talked about insurance for volunteers and directors. We obtained $500,000 to meet the demands of Quebec harbour authorities and, today, we have the necessary insurance to meet their needs.

On March 18, 2008, the APQQHA (Administrations portuaires du Québec—Quebec Harbour Authorities) held a press conference to denounce the Canadian government's inaction with regard to the small craft harbours program. We set out the needs of Quebec harbour authorities and indicated the measures that could be taken if our demands were ignored. The press conference was held in the Gaspé and Magdalen Islands sector. As for the north shore, a press release was sent to the appropriate media.

The following are the needs of Quebec's harbour authorities: additional funding to maintain our wharves so that they are accessible and safe; an immediate change to the budget allocation formula to take into account Quebec's real needs; given that there is a greater need for dredging in Quebec than elsewhere and that the current budget is insufficient to meet the minimal requirements of harbour authorities, additional funding is needed to put an end to the divestiture program in Quebec; more money is needed to support the managers of fishing harbours who are now exhausted by too much volunteer work; and the Canadian government has to show that it will take our demands seriously.

The following are the measures that could be taken if our demands are ignored: stop doing volunteer work; receive compensation for all the work carried out by volunteers in a fishing harbour and send the invoice to the department; no longer participate in sectoral, regional and national meetings called by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans; no longer contribute financially to the maintenance of fishing harbours, which means that all expenses incurred by a harbour authority will have to be paid by the department; no longer report back to the department on damages caused, which will force the department to conduct its own inspections in order to check the structural conditions; the resignation of all members of harbour authorities in Quebec.

Here are some interesting statistics with regard to Quebec. As of March 1, 2007, according to the department, Quebec had 45 harbour authorities that managed 60 ports, 82 fishing harbours and 32 recreational harbours, 55 essential harbours and 59 non essential...

[The Chair, Conservative, Fabian Manning]

Thank you, Ms. Mathurin.

We'll begin our questions now.

I understand Mr. MacAulay is going first. You have ten minutes.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I must tell you I am very pleased to be here with my colleagues in Gaspé. We've heard a lot of problems about small craft harbours over the week. We have yet to hear about a port that had too much money. It's an ongoing problem to convince governments that they need to spend more money on small craft harbours.

Mr. Morissette, this is a little off topic, but you did mention the mussel industry you have here. Do you have any problem with invasive species?

[Stéphane Morissette]

Yes, as in many other places, we have to deal with invasive species. However, we have not yet had to deal with major species from Prince Edward Island, such as the tunicate. We are above all concerned with marine traffic.

Last year, in the Magdalen Islands, when a Transport Canada barge came infested from Prince Edward Island tunicate, we were able to resolve the problem, but we were still very concerned.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I thank you very much. That barge came from somewhere else before it came to Prince Edward Island, and we didn't have it. That's the problem we're all facing.

Also you mentioned--and I'd like you to expand on that--that in Gaspé they do not have wharves to fish out of, or they don't have any infrastructure in place. There are no wharves. Did you mention Carleton wharf? I'd like you to expand on that and just explain the situation to us and what is missing.

[Stéphane Morissette]

I am a mussels farmer and I work from two docks. Therefore, I have two boats: one in Carleton, and the other here in Gaspé. In Carleton, I have a fishing dock but it is a very small spur wharf large enough for only two boats. Right now, there are seven mussels vessels in Carleton. Therefore, there is not enough room for everyone. We have to use the dock that belongs to Transport Canada, that the department wants to divest itself of. There has been no agreement between Fisheries and Oceans Canada and Transport Canada with respect to common usage.

I will give you an example. Three years ago, officials from Fisheries and Oceans Canada brought in some equipment to collect waste water, but were unable to unload on Transport Canada land. No agreement was possible. The equipment, therefore, had to be unloaded elsewhere. Currently, there are two mussels farmers who use the spur wharf, but it is very low. When the tide is high, the boats land on the dock. It has to be completely overhauled. This is what is going on in Carleton.

The situation in the Gaspé is worse because there is no Fisheries and Oceans Canada infrastructure. In the past, the department had one dock which has since been abandoned. It was ultimately divested to Transport Canada. There is no plan to rebuild it. In the Gaspé, mussels farmers like Jacques and I have no role to play. We operate off the Transport Canada dock. There is no service: no fresh water, no electricity, no water ramp, no crane. And yet, each boat has to pay $200 per month to use the dock.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to pass it on to my colleague, Mr. Simms.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you very much, sir.

Pardon my French. I represent Newfoundland and Labrador, where there are not a lot of fishers. The situation in my province is very difficult for our young people. A great number of our fishers are 50 years or older.

Ms. Collin and Ms. Mathurin, can you explain to us to what extent the situation is difficult for young people involved with the harbour authority or the industry? Can you tell us how old most of the people living in the region are?

[Carmelle Mathurin]

Mr. Dufresne is probably in a better position to answer that question.

My father is 70 years old, and still fishes. This will probably be his last year.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Yes, but according to what you said, once your father stops fishing, it will be over.

[Carmelle Mathurin]

In my small village, there are not a lot of young people. There's practically no incoming generation to speak of and there are not a lot of boats coming to our wharf to fish. People are going to the Rivière-au-Renard dock, since it is close by.

In the beginning, there were five, six or seven members, but now we are only two. Of course, we cannot think of some sort of development, because we are working full-time elsewhere. This is all volunteer work. We try to do our outmost.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Therefore, the future is going to be difficult?

[Carmelle Mathurin]

Of course.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

And for you, madam?