Evidence of meeting #5 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brian Wallace  Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Order.

We have set aside 15 minutes at the end of today's meeting to deal with Mr. Donnelly's motion.

Before we begin I'd like to say thank you to Mr. Wallace and his colleague for coming here today. We really appreciate your coming to meet with the committee. As I said to you beforehand, the committee has been anxiously awaiting your appearance here. I'm sure you'll find the questions very poignant and relevant.

Mr. Wallace, we generally allow ten minutes for our guests to make opening comments. Before we begin I'll ask you to introduce yourself and your associate. Then please proceed.

3:35 p.m.

Brian Wallace Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My name is Brian Wallace. I'm the senior commission counsel to the Cohen commission, the commission of inquiry into the decline of sockeye salmon in the Fraser River, and with me is one of our junior counsels, Lara Tessaro.

Thank you very much for inviting us here to appear today. I'd like to take this opportunity just to tell you where we are in this process.

I'm going to learn about Mr. Ladouceur's beeper, and in fact I think I may well want to get one for myself for the conduct of our hearings because of the great amount of interest and the very short time in which Justice Cohen has been asked to conduct this inquiry.

I'm sure I'm not telling anybody anything they don't already know, but just for context, the mandate of the commission is twofold; it is looking into the decline of sockeye in the Fraser, first of all, from the perspective of DFO's policies and management, and secondly, from a much broader view of the assessment of the causes of that decline, an assessment of the current state of that fishery, and a prognosis and recommendations for its future.

This is a very broad task, and what I hope to do in the next few minutes is to just explain how we hope to go about it, but at the end of the day Justice Cohen is intent that this inquiry should be conducted thoroughly and fairly, and be completed in a timely way. The time limits have been set by the order in council that appointed him, as an independent justice, to inquire into this issue, but quite apart from that we are all aware of the real-world time limits that are at play here.

We provided a short briefing paper late last week, which perhaps you may have had an opportunity to read; if not, you can if you wish. In it we start off by setting out some of the administration issues to explain how we have gone from November 6, when Justice Cohen was appointed, to today, and what we have achieved in that period of time to where we are in the process.

I'd just like to comment on a couple of the broader issues as to how we intend to engage the public in this process and how we intend to make the inquiry thorough and fair.

The first step in the public part of the process was to invite applicants who wished to be participants in the process to apply for standing. We had what we believe is a record number of people showing an interest in this inquiry, and there were 49 applications for standing. Those 49 applications already included a number of groups that had come together for the purpose of their application. At a rough assessment, there appear to be more than 60 organizations and groups, and some individuals, who have sought standing.

Over the past couple of weeks we have been engaged with these applicants to try to determine if some of them can be persuaded to cooperate even more, so that we have a smaller number of people and make this hearing process work effectively.

The standing applications process came to a conclusion, except for the decision, with a hearing last Friday in the large federal courtroom in Vancouver. We had about 30 or 35 participants there, who engaged in further discussions and made some submissions with respect to how they might work together. The outstanding issue is for Justice Cohen to make a decision on to whom he is going to grant standing.

The next piece of that puzzle is funding. Justice Cohen doesn't have a right to award funding to anybody, but he can make recommendations. Once the decision is made on standing, he will consider the issue of funding for those participants.

Also, with respect to public participation, we have our website up and running, and as of today we have opened it to receive public input on the issues before us. From the website, any member of the public can make a submission. They will be reviewed for appropriateness and relevance by commission staff, and if found to be appropriate and relevant, they will be posted on the website. Others can then comment on those submissions. We hope to get an open public dialogue on some of the issues before the commission.

Down the road we expect to have public meetings that are focused on some of the issues taken to various parts of the Fraser River watershed, and other places where the Fraser River sockeye are important, such as Vancouver Island.

With respect to the more formal part of the hearing for which participants will be engaged, we expect the first step of that to take place in June. I think we will have a short set of hearings without the hearing of evidence to hear submissions that will inform the commissioner on his interim report, which is due on August 1. The interim report is a preliminary assessment of the recommendations that DFO has received over the years from various inquiries and investigations, and on DFO's responses to those reports. As I said, there will be short hearings in June, when participants will be asked to make submissions on the interim report issues.

The process to date has also involved obtaining access to DFO documents. So far we have received some 80,000 pages of documents, and we anticipate that number will grow appreciably, just from DFO. We expect there will be documents provided by other participants as well, so we have a serious evidence gathering process under way to analyze the documents.

We also have begun to interview witnesses. You can appreciate that there are a lot of people who have strong views on this issue and who wish to meet with the commission. We're meeting with some of those people. We also will be interviewing people within DFO.

There's an interview process that will go into the beginning of our evidentiary hearings. The evidentiary hearings we expect will take place later this year. I'm not sure how long they will take. It depends on where the documents and the witnesses lead us.

So we have a public input process and a formal hearing process.

The other aspect of the mandate directs us to a scientific investigation, in a way. The commission doesn't anticipate that it will do any primary scientific research--it just doesn't have the resources or the time to do that, and I think it would be the wrong sort of body to do so--but we do have a scientific program in place. We have a fisheries research consultant who will chair a science advisory panel; that panel will contract some scientific reviews that will be subject to public exposure through the website and perhaps through some round-table public meetings where differing views will be aired, all to the result of getting evidence before the commissioner so that he can make his independent findings in a fair and thorough way.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. Wallace.

Go ahead, Mr. Byrne.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Wallace and Ms. Tessaro.

Is it correct that we're looking at the final wrap-up for phase one around August 1, 2010?

3:45 p.m.

Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Brian Wallace

That's right.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Are you on schedule for that? I know you had some hiccups in the beginning.

3:45 p.m.

Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Brian Wallace

I think it will be a challenge. There are some clerical issues in getting things produced, and so on, that are hard to figure into the timing, but it'll be a challenge to make the August 1 deadline.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

In terms of the final report, if you're off schedule on phase one, would you have an anticipation at this point in time of what will happen with phase two ?

3:45 p.m.

Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Brian Wallace

Mr. Byrne, let me put it this way: we're already working towards things that are germane only to the final report and not to the interim report. Getting the science work under way and beginning the work on the website and preparing for the evidentiary hearings is all to inform the final report; it isn't germane to the preliminary report. I think it too will be a challenge, but it's not a stepwise process.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

I want to step into that scientific analysis, then. How much of this will actually be production of new research or commissioning of new research?

3:45 p.m.

Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Brian Wallace

I'm not the science adviser, but I don't anticipate any new research. It will be a matter of analyzing, reviewing, and subjecting to peer review the science that's already available. That in itself is a massive task.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Yes, that's actually where we run into some conflict, not with the commission, but with your capacity or ability to actually generate a final report that meets the expectations and needs of the salmon and the people of B.C.

We've already heard that there are some significant holes and scientific gaps in the science surrounding this. In particular, one of the main questions posed by stakeholders from B.C. and elsewhere is on the interaction between aquaculture--maritime cage culture in particular--and wild salmon stocks.

I'll have to rephrase it, because you haven't analyzed the data as of yet, but what we've heard already is the lead source of that scientific data, presumably, is the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. We're already heard from expert witnesses within the Department of Fisheries and Oceans that from DFO's point of view, fish farms are not a major factor in the decline of wild salmon populations in British Columbia right now.

If we're just simply using existing scientific databases and literature, do you have any concerns that you're going to be able to provide a proper analysis or is that decision that's already been taken by DFO the only basis on which you'll be able to make a conclusion and it'll be exactly the same conclusion?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Brian Wallace

I anticipate that there are other sources of research beyond DFO that we will be looking at. As you point out, we're just at early stages here, so I don't know what they are or where they come from, but a number of academic organizations have conducted research. Whether they have on this particular subject, I don't know. I'd be very surprised if the only source of information were to come from DFO. Whether the matter can be determined definitively, I again can't say at this point.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

It's probably more a question of the volume than the cost of doing an analysis of a problem with which you've been tasked and for which there are terms of reference. You have a big job ahead of you and on your hands. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans, I think it would be fair to say, would be the depository and the source of scientific analysis of the magnitude that would be required for this particular type of study.

That being said, if there are gaps that you identify in the scientific capacity or analysis of the existing stock of scientific evidence that's available and its conclusions, will your terms of reference allow you to point this out and suggest or recommend specific scientific initiatives to close the gaps?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Brian Wallace

Justice Cohen's terms of reference do allow this on the science side, as I call it. He is asked to try to determine the reasons for the decline, to assess the current state of the stock, to look at its future, and to make recommendations. So it would be open to him, I think, to recommend that further work needs to be done in a particular area. But with the benefit of everything that DFO knows—because we've asked them to provide it, and they're required, under the terms, to provide us with all of the research that we seek from them—but also from other sources.... A number of parties have expressed direct interest in the aquaculture issue, so I anticipate that there will be other science provided. I also anticipate that commission counsel and the participants' counsel will have questions in cross-examination for DFO witnesses on this issue. I suspect the aquaculture will be a focus here.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Thank you very much.

Do you anticipate that the change in jurisdiction brought on by the Supreme Court of B.C. ruling will impact upon the commission's work in terms of what will be available to you, its timeliness, or whether it has now changed? Has something about it left certain issues potentially out of the terms of reference, or are there any issues you'd like—?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Brian Wallace

The aquaculture decision of the B.C. Supreme Court made it clear that this all fell within the federal jurisdiction and therefore within DFO's mandate. So I don't think it impacts what we're allowed to look at, and indeed the province itself has applied for standing at the hearings.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Those are my next questions. And obviously the federal government has also applied for standing.

3:50 p.m.

Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Brian Wallace

We didn't require the federal government to apply; we gave them standing before they asked.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Okay. They didn't apply for standing in the B.C. Supreme Court decision, so I thought it might be helpful to at least ask that question.

3:50 p.m.

Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Brian Wallace

No, we weren't giving them that out.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Good for you; I guess experience is a good guage.

Basically, if I'm reading it correctly, there are no roadblocks whatsoever that you anticipate, from the province or elsewhere, to getting information or data as a result of that decision.

3:55 p.m.

Senior Commission Counsel, Cohen Commission

Brian Wallace

There's nothing that we've come up against yet.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL

Do you have any questions?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

No.