Evidence of meeting #34 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
Could I add a final word on that?
When you ask a question like that, I immediately start thinking of economics, and I think of the World Trade Organization.
First, I'd like to mention that ecology in general—and biological invasion, which is somewhat of a sub-discipline of ecology in general—is still not a mature science. We're still in the early stages of learning many, many things. Economics is as well, I think, but....
I think there are models on the economic system that could be applied, and I think the one for ballast water has been developed.
Tony, help me with the acronym. Is it the IMO?
5 p.m.
Associate Professor, McGill University, As an Individual
Yes—the International Maritime Organization.
5 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
They've developed regulations that are applied internationally in terms of that, because I believe they see the economics. They've seen the numbers. They understand that if they're regulated and if they're going to have to put in new systems for filtering water, etc., that will affect them in one country or another, it's better to be proactive, to be ahead of the game, to coordinate, and to show that good effort.
I think that would be where I would look. I think I'd look to Germany if I had to pick a European country that's leading in this area.
5 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just wanted to ask about Australia and their program. Is it federally mandated or funded? How does that work?
5 p.m.
Associate Professor, McGill University, As an Individual
Australia and New Zealand have either ministries or departments—I get confused as to which one is which—of biosecurity that serve to coordinate efforts to deal with species that are crossing their borders, whether we're talking about pathogens, species that affect threshold ecosystems, or aquatic invasive species, whether freshwater or marine. They coordinate these activities.
I can't say much more about it than that, except that their decisions are based largely on risk assessment. Their scientists probably lead the field as far as risk assessment methods go—that is, in abilities to identify which species or vectors pose the greatest risk, which ones will likely cause the greatest damage and so on.
5:05 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
May I add to that?
5:05 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
I'm always the second at bat. Sometimes I hope I can hit not a home run, but....
I think the thing you have to realize with Australia and New Zealand—because they come up—is that it's not an accident that those are the countries that are ahead of us.
Number one, as isolated islands that have been isolated for hundreds of millions of years, they are susceptible to invasions like no other place. When invasions occur, they're sometimes catastrophic.
Also, they're also better able to control their borders. So they have a mentality—and I think Dr. Ricciardi mentioned that before—of thinking about invasions there, because they've had them, and they're actually able to see that, yes, if they can control the entryways, they can actually do something with much more confidence in their actions.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you.
We've talked about the biggest sources of this problem. You've mentioned ballast water from foreign ships and the international live trade. Are there any other main sources we should be aware of? What I was thinking when you were describing this is some kind of a hot-spots map that we should have. I know that in my time as city councillor—and I'm thinking of the police—we had the hot-spot areas identified. Is there anything like this that exists? Also, are there any other sources that need to be identified?
5:05 p.m.
Associate Professor, McGill University, As an Individual
I've heard of a study being done in Britain—I can't remember the details—that is applying exactly what you just talked about. It's recent. It applies the hot spots of crime approach, or the statistical approach toward establishing that, to exotic species, or to species outbreaks, if you like.
What was the other part of your question?
5:05 p.m.
NDP
5:05 p.m.
Associate Professor, McGill University, As an Individual
Well, from sources like canals, for example.... The Welland Canal still can function as a source for allowing species, once they get into the St. Lawrence River, to bypass Niagara Falls and get in, just like the sea lamprey, the alewife, and a few other things did. Canals breach barriers that would otherwise contain species, unless we've found other ways to help them get out.
5:05 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
There are intentional introductions. I raised this earlier. I definitely remember a time when someone was going to block boat transport to a lake, and someone made an anonymous call. It was a washing station where they were going to require people to wash their boats, and someone said, “If you do that, I'm just going to dump zebra mussels in the lake and get it over with”.
I'm not sure how to provide live fish without that risk. Maybe they can't take them out live, but I could see somebody saying, “Well, we'll put a few in the bay, and we'll have our own population forever”.
5:05 p.m.
Associate Professor, McGill University, As an Individual
Remember that live trade includes lots of sub-vectors. We're talking about moving species for commercial purposes. We're talking about aquarium dumping after the aquarium industry has distributed species. There is bait-bucket dumping. After the bait trade has distributed species, people on the ground will start dumping them. That's how rusty crayfish and a variety of other things have been moved around and continue to be moved around.
Ultimately, human behaviour at the small scale will continue to distribute things after the larger-scale operations of industries have introduced them to a region.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
My final question is sort of the reverse of my initial question.
How can we better address this problem without spending any further resources? Are there steps we can take, for instance? My initial question was whether we can address this problem with limited resources and the cuts the department is facing. How about the reverse? We're not getting any more funds. What's the best thing we can do?
5:05 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
Yes, it's the tough question.
5:05 p.m.
Associate Professor, McGill University, As an Individual
It's your chance up at bat, Ladd. Hit it out of the park.
5:05 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
I would go towards targeted public education, because I think that will affect some of these difficult vectors to target. Sowing seeds for the future will not have a big turnaround in the near term, but sensitizing school kids.... It could be included in curricula.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC
Sorry, just to clarify, are you talking about government doing that, or non-profit groups or volunteers? Who's doing this without being paid?
5:10 p.m.
Professor, Department of Biology, Laval University, As an Individual
Well, without being paid, you're going to get nothing for nothing. But with your smallest investment, your biggest bang for your buck in the long term I think might very well be public education, with the caveat that you have to assess how effective it is.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, gentlemen, for appearing here. I appreciate your testimony. It has been very helpful. I will try not to repeat many of the topics that have already been discussed, because I think this has already been really helpful.
Yesterday the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans made an announcement here in the Ottawa area about responsible protection and conservation of Canada's fisheries. I don't know if you caught that. Partway through, he made this statement:
You will also be happy to know that regulations will be developed prohibiting the import, transport, and possession of live aquatic invasive species, such as Asian carp, which are threatening the Great Lakes.
If the Fisheries Act were to be amended to refer specifically to the regulation-making power, or include regulation-making power that specifically addressed issues such as the possession of live aquatic invasive species, I'm assuming that you'd think that was progress. That may not be public education, but it has to be kind of close on that list of things we could do that would be helpful without costing a lot of money, at least at the outset.
