Evidence of meeting #43 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was great.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Ullrich  Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

If I am remembering correctly, I think it was a three- or four-mile stretch of the river.

There was a lot of dead fish: that's how you could tell it was effective. They did find, I think, only one dead Asian carp out of all of the fish that were there.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Because it kills everything.

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

Pretty much everything; it's probably not 100%, but it's a pretty high rate.

They were very concerned, because they had to take the electric barrier down to do this maintenance work. I think it was a 24- to 48-hour period. They gave a really intense dose of rotenone. If I'm remembering correctly, it was a three- or four-mile stretch of the river, or perhaps a two- or three-mile stretch, something like that, so it was pretty substantial. It's fairly wide, and relatively deep as well.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Okay, thank you.

Just looking at your map here on other pathways, there are 18 potential aquatic pathways. I look at the Ohio River, which originates out of Pittsburgh and comes down through.... If the carp are that far up the Mississippi, are there instances when they've made their way up the Ohio River?

5 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

5 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

And when you look at the watersheds of the Cuyahoga River and others, what are the risk areas? How high a risk is there of them coming up the Ohio system?

5 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

This is why getting a very detailed and comprehensive risk assessment is so important. We understand that Canada is doing some work on this right now, which we are eagerly awaiting. Actually, they're cooperating with the U.S. Geological Survey and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

I think the sense is, intuitively, that the Chicago Area Waterway System presents by far the largest risk, and because we can't deal with all 19 at once, the idea is to accelerate the process of finding and implementing a solution there. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is proceeding with its Great Lakes and Mississippi River interbasin study, but that's going to play out over some long period of time.

There has been some interim action taken in a place called Eagle Marsh, where the Wabash River, which comes up off the Ohio River and comes very close to the Maumee River, which goes out into Lake Erie at Toledo.... There's actually been installed not a full physical barrier, but a very tight mesh fence a mile or two long through this marsh, and they've actually seen carp, not Asian carp, up against that fence. But there are Asian carp in the Wabash River, and yes, they are up the Ohio River. As I mentioned before, they're all the way up into Minnesota on the Mississippi River and the Minnesota River and in the Wisconsin River.

Again, none of those potential contact points present anywhere near the level of risk that the Chicago waterway system does. We think it's important that the work go ahead on those, but we've really got to fast-track the Chicago waterway system.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

So the volumes appear to be going up the Mississippi, as opposed to up those sides?

5 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

There was a thought at the time that the colder temperatures would be an impediment, but from work that I've seen recently, Asian carp can survive well up into Canada as well as the northern United States.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

There have been some suggestions from witnesses about enforcing the Lacey Act on the movement across state lines of plants and animals, and if that were enforced maybe some of this wouldn't be as prevalent. Do you agree? And why is there minimal enforcement? Is it just too impractical to monitor across state lines?

5 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

I don't know why there isn't the level of enforcement that is needed. I am extremely disappointed that there is not more aggressive enforcement on the U.S. side. I don't know if it's an issue of resources.

Frankly, the process of getting the Asian carp designated as an injurious species under the Lacey Act took way longer than it should have. Then even once it was designated, I'm certainly not aware of any intensive enforcement efforts. In fact, just when we were having our Great Lakes Fisheries Commission meeting, this was a real concern on the part of a lot of U.S. representatives. Just that week some charges were announced in the State of Michigan concerning grass carp, another variety of Asian carp, but that was done at the state level and not the federal level.

So I really don't know what's going on there, but I think we need much more aggressive enforcement. If they're getting to Windsor and Sarnia—and apparently they came from a trucker down in Peru, Indiana, who picked them up some place even farther south—then something more has to be done.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you.

Mr. Toone.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Again, thank you for coming.

We talked a little about financing. This is going to cost a substantial amount to fix if we're only talking about Chicago, and you mentioned that there are 19 other vectors where they might come in.

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Let's start with that, actually. Where are the 19? Are they all around the Lake Michigan area? Are we talking about other Great Lakes?

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

I'm just trying to remember. I think they reach at least four of the five Great Lakes. I can't remember if there's one to Lake Huron as well, but they're pretty much spread from Minnesota, through Wisconsin, Illinois—with the major one being the Chicago waterway system—and then Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, and I'm pretty sure Pennsylvania and New York. So through all of those states there is the potential of their getting in at least four of the Great Lakes. I'm not sure if there's a vector to Lake Huron as well. But, yes, it's quite spread out on the U.S. side.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I'm assuming that on the Canadian side, the Government of Ontario would be particularly interested, but what about the St. Lawrence River? Would the Asian carp find a home in the St. Lawrence?

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

My guess is that they could establish themselves there, but they would have to go a long way before they actually got there. They're not going to come up from ocean, because, to my knowledge, they're not an ocean-living species. So I think, yes, they could likely establish themselves, particularly in places like Lac Saint Pierre, which in my sense would be an ideal habitat for them. So, yes, they could.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I noticed that you're going to be having a conference in Quebec City in a couple of weeks.

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

It will be next week.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

It will be next week, and Régis Labeaume, the mayor of Quebec City, is going to be your host.

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I'm assuming we're going to be bringing this up to him as well.

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative

David Ullrich

Oh, yes. He's quite aware of it already. Who knows? You may be hearing from him about it.