Evidence of meeting #7 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was habitat.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Siddika Mithani  Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Oceans Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Claire Dansereau  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Marc Grégoire  Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Balfour  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Kevin Stringer  Assistant Deputy Minister, Program Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
David Bevan  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Okay. I was just taking the opportunity to message that on behalf of Yukoners. Hopefully that's part of the planning.

Do I have a minute or so left, Mr. Chair?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

You have two and a half minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Now let's go right back to Atlantic Canada, because it's important to me as well.

I was listening with interest to the call centre discussion and the fact that service delivery in both official languages is critical, but I was also m wondering about the following. Obviously there must be contingencies and training plans in place with the coast guard so that it can serve people speaking any language in an emergency in the marine area. Certainly, it's not just French- and English-speaking people who require call centre service; there must be people speaking German and Japanese and Chinese who would utilize the emergency call service over time.

I'm wondering if you could give us a high level picture of what training contingency plans occur for the coast guard when there are service calls in completely foreign languages, and whether or not that puts those people speaking a completely different language in greater jeopardy than those of us who speak English or French and require help in that sort of situation?

4:30 p.m.

Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Marc Grégoire

That's a very difficult question to answer. I'm not aware of specific cases where emergency calls were placed and we were not able to answer them because of a language other than French and English. We do have capacity elsewhere in the system so that the calls can be transferred between the joint rescue centres. They can be transferred between each other, as they are today.

We can seek the help also of the marine traffic communications system that we have. We have staff spread around the country. They can also help; our employees speak a number of languages.

I would say it's rather rare that we get such calls within Canadian waters from people not able to speak either English or French.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Leef.

Mr. Tremblay.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Jonathan Tremblay NDP Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

It has been almost 20 years since commercial groundfish fishing was banned offshore Newfoundland and Labrador. Commercial stocks have not gone up and, as a result, crab and shrimp stocks are now in decline.

Why is there no support for a commission of inquiry into the management of fisheries in Newfoundland and Labrador? In addition, why is there no recovery program for fisheries?

4:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Claire Dansereau

You have about three or four questions in there.

We always have recovery programs. We have worked for 20 years on recovering groundfish fishing. David Balfour will be able to give you more details on that.

As for a commission of inquiry, I don't have an answer because it is a question for the government as a whole. So we don't have a position on that.

You are saying that crab and shrimp stocks are in decline. But that is not entirely true. Some species have a cycle. Each fishery has its own management plan, and we would be more than happy to show you the work that is being done.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you.

Mr. Toone.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Philip Toone NDP Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you.

I have a question about small craft harbours.

The Government of Canada has included funding for small craft harbours in its economic action plan. Essentially, small craft harbours are as important to coastal communities as the 401 is to Toronto. Vital small craft harbours that are administered by your department need to be fully operational and safe.

Your department really needs to move faster on repairs. There are a lot of concerns in my riding and many others that the infrastructure is essentially falling apart. The longer you wait, the more these harbours are going to become damaged, ultimately leading to higher costs both for our stakeholders and costs of repair generally.

What measures are being taken by the department to meet the recommendations outlined in the fisheries and oceans committee report of 2009, especially with regard to ensuring there are sufficient funds for harbour renovations and maintenance and for increasing the budget for small craft harbours?

4:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Claire Dansereau

Well, as you know, budget questions are not our purview. We do not set the overall budgets.

The government did respond very quickly last year to the storm damage and injected significant moneys because of the abnormal situation we found ourselves in. There were significant increases to the small craft harbour budget through the economic action plan, as well as through the storm damage plan.

With the rest of our own ongoing budget, we prioritized , according to specific criteria, when and how we make investments. For this program, as for any other program, there will always be the argument that there isn't enough money—but that is the state of affairs. The department prioritizes to make sure that the moneys go to the place where the need is the greatest.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

There are two minutes left for you, Mr. Donnelly.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Two minutes? All right.

My next question switches to the Pacific coast and addresses Canada's wild salmon policy. The wild salmon policy states that the conservation of wild salmon and the protection of their habitat is DFO's top priority.

How does the wild salmon policy inform aquaculture regulations?

4:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Claire Dansereau

As you may know, we spent a considerable amount of time discussing those very questions--David and I, and others--at the Cohen commission last week and the week before. We're all becoming slightly expert at wild salmon policy.

As you know, the consultations for the creation of the wild salmon policy happened between 2001 and 2005. The policy was finalized in 2005. Obviously, this was long before the federal government took over the regulatory role for aquaculture. So for us, certainly, the relationship of aquaculture to wild fish would have been more on the science side than the regulatory side. We will see what comes from the Cohen commission on that very question. We don't know where that will go.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Fin Donnelly NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

So there will be a strong attempt to implement the recommendations that come out of the Cohen inquiry?

4:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Claire Dansereau

We'll have to see what they are. There are too many speculative steps for me to be able to answer that question. I don't know what the recommendations will be; I don't know anything about them, so we'll have to let the commissioner do his work.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Donnelly.

Mr. Sopuck.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Thank you very much. I appreciate your being here.

I have a comment. From what I'm hearing, the emphasis of the department in terms of fisheries management is commercial fishing. It seems to me that is about 90% of what you do. The angling industry in Canada is worth billions; and I think as you reprofile the department, you need to really seriously consider a major ramping up of the management and enhancement of Canada's recreational fish stocks—and not just on the coast either.

I'm old enough to remember the glory days of the Fisheries Research Board and what a terrific outfit it was. Its research and enhancement efforts were directly aimed at enhancing fish populations that people actually wanted. So I think that's something you're going to have to look at.

I'm from western Canada, and I saw the effect of the habitat program when DFO moved into prairie Canada. It's simply not a pretty picture, as you well know. I've talked to enough department staff myself in my constituency to know that even they are not happy about the situation there.

I would appreciate short answers here, given how little time we have. Do you have any estimate of the effectiveness of your habitat program in inland Canada, in terms of the actual conservation of fish stocks? What has been the result for the millions spent?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Program Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Kevin Stringer

I think it's fair to point out that five years ago, we started to invest in more monitoring. With respect to our own policies, we weren't certain if we were able to meet our requirements. But the monitoring has been more in the area of compliance, as opposed to effectiveness, and we're starting to look at effectiveness monitoring. In fact, two years ago, we did undertake an exercise to meet with our stakeholders to ask them that very question: how did they think our habitat program and our habitat policy was working.

We had two sets of meetings. One was with industry folks, and by industry I don't mean big industry but proponents, people who were trying to do things and who ran up against our program. The other was with conservation groups. The results are mixed, I would say, in terms of the view of the effect of the policy, but the department has taken it onboard. Certainly the minister has, and the deputy spoke last week at the Cohen inquiry about our commitment to look at our policy, to look at our program along the lines the minister set out in his opening remarks.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

That's a very general answer. What I'm looking for are specifics; I think the time for generalities is over. We've had the experiment, and it's been an utter failure. For the millions spent, I think we must have some kind of result.

I'm glad you're talking to rural communities. I don't think we need to talk about industries, but about rural communities and municipalities and the very real effect on community livelihoods that DFO's habitat program has had for very little return, in terms of actual fish conservation. I've asked the staff, and they simply cannot tell me the result of all of that work.

One of the problems of course is the no-net-habitat-loss policy that you're working under. I will be recommending and pushing for—and we'll probably have further discussions about this—a change of that policy to no net loss of fish production. That would open up an opportunity for proponents to do all kinds of creative fish enhancement work that may or may not deal with the actual piece of habitat in question.

With a no net loss of habitat policy, you would agree that it's very difficult to recreate nature, isn't it? In fact it's almost impossible. But if the policy were changed to no net loss of fish production, I think that would give proponents much more flexibility. You would agree with me that the purpose of fish habitat is to produce fish, so let's go right to fish production and work on fish that people want.

In prairie Canada, we have a number of big reservoirs. The existing policy would say that fish habitat is destroyed when you flood a valley, but as you well know, there is an explosion of fish production when a prairie reservoir is created. The habitat may change, but you can get up to a ten to twentyfold increase in the production of fish. If you focus on fish production, we would all be much better off, for the money you spend.

The other point I want to make is that it's not appropriate for fisheries officers to show up at meetings, especially in farming communities, when they are armed. I know you have policies, and so on, and I don't care about those policies; it is completely inappropriate to go into a meeting of farmers and landowners and municipal officials armed. And we're the party of guns, as you can appreciate. Most of us own more than one gun—I own 14. I want you to reconsider that, because it immediately sets up a dynamic that is not good for either your officials or the people in question.

My last comment relates to sturgeon. I think you really have to look at that species. In western Canada, a SARA listing of that species, which is abundant and not an endangered species, has the potential to put at risk $20 billion in hydro developments.

Thank you very much.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Sopuck. I see why you want the answer to be short.

4:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Mr. MacAulay.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I'd like to ask if anybody will be allowed to fish in the protected areas?

4:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Claire Dansereau

Each of the marine protected areas will be area specific, as we're currently designing them. So the kind of activity to be allowed there will depend on what is being protected.