Evidence of meeting #31 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthew King  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Marty Muldoon  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Marc Grégoire  Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Kevin Stringer  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Trevor Swerdfager  Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Oceans Science, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Michel Vermette  Deputy Commissioner, Vessel Procurement, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Tom Rosser  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

9:20 a.m.

Michel Vermette Deputy Commissioner, Vessel Procurement, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The project we have and the funding in the supplementary estimates (B) are allowing us to move ahead on two fronts on the OFSV, the offshore fishery science vessel project. The first is to complete the engineering for the ship. It's very important for us to have a complete three-dimensional engineering model of the ship before we move into construction. The second piece of what we're doing is to acquire most, if not all, of the material for that first ship so that when we do start construction we will have in the shipyard all of the motors, equipment, electronics, right down to the steel, in order to ensure that we have the information required from that material as we complete the engineering.

It is our hope that we'll be into construction in the spring of 2015 on the first of the vessels, for delivery sometime in 2016. That's the current shipyard schedule. The next two would come out at about eight-month intervals, so the final delivery, the third vessel, would be in 2017.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

Okay. Thank you.

Let me just move to the helicopters that were mentioned in the presentation and in the documents. If I heard right, I think it was $20.6 million. Does that give us one helicopter out of a fleet of many more than that? Can you just tell us in general what the coast guard helicopter fleet is, what it does, and how this $20.6 million plays into that? Is this a major replacement of all of our helicopters, and so on?

9:25 a.m.

Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Marc Grégoire

That's a good question, and there is very good news, actually, for the coast guard.

The coast guard operated 22 helicopters up until last fall, when we lost one, so we now have a fleet of 21 helicopters. The government has given us the funding required to replace the whole fleet. This money is actually the first portion for the replacement. This portion is to acquire a piece of the contract, which is spread out over two “contract years”, if you want, but spread over three fiscal years, starting now. As the CFO mentioned, we will receive the first helicopter in March, I believe, and then one a month for three months, and then two a month for all 15 of the light helicopters. These light helicopters are being built by Bell Helicopter in Mirabel. They are Bell 429s. They are mainly replacing the fleet of light BO-105 helicopters we are using.

The next phase of the helicopter acquisition program will involve building seven medium helicopters, and once that is completed, all coast guard helicopters will have been replaced. Finally, a simulator, to be located at the Transport Canada training centre at the Ottawa airport, will be acquired.

The coast guard uses those helicopters for a variety of work, from aids to navigation maintenance to maintenance of remote communication sites—mountain sites and island sites. When the ships are moving through the Arctic, there is a helicopter aboard each of them. These helicopters are used to do ice surveying of the route to be taken by the ship. These helicopters are used to do crew changes and all kinds of work around the ship, again, in the Arctic, as well as maintenance of various installations on the ground. The helicopter is the most efficient way to do all of that work. Helicopters are not used per se for search and research and hoisting. Those things are done by the National Defence helicopters.

That, in essence, is the work we're doing.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Randy Kamp Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC

Okay. Thank you for that. It's good to hear that we're making good progress there.

I have just one final question, I think, on the fisheries side. The presentation referred to the Pacific integrated commercial fisheries and the Atlantic integrated program as well, and funding for that. So that we understand what that money's going to be used for, can you give us kind of the history of the two programs, how the two programs might be similar or different, and what progress and accomplishments we've seen from those two programs over the several years?

9:25 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Kevin Stringer

Thank you for the question. You've asked about a number of points, and I'll try to touch on all of them.

As was pointed out in the presentation by the CFO, PICFI, the Pacific program, is $44 million over two years, and the Atlantic program is $22 million over two years. As the question suggested, these are renewals of programs that have been in place for a while. They were both started in 2007. They were both renewed for one year each in 2012 and in 2013. They've been operating since then. They're similar, but there are some differences.

I'll start with the similarities. It really is about supporting an effective aboriginal fishery as part of an overall integrated fishery on both coasts. It is about supporting jobs, economic development, in first nations communities on both coasts. It is about ensuring proper fisheries management and proper engagement around fisheries management, particularly with respect to the business of running fisheries enterprises.

Take the Atlantic program, for example. The Government of Canada made a significant investment, following the Marshall decision, in first nations fisheries on the east coast. A significant amount of access was provided. That was followed by a couple of programs to ensure that first nations participants were trained in fishing and were able to effectively operate the fishery. First nations have now become major players on the fishery on the east coast.

The AICFI program is about building on that. It's ensuring that the training is in place, that the capacity for proper fisheries management is there, and that business enterprise regimes are there as well. It's working with first nations on the east coast to develop business plans and to diversify in the fishery. There's also some boat replacement, boat repair, and those types of things. It's about making sure that the investment made by the Government of Canada but also by first nations is effectively protected and used to the best of the abilities.

The west coast program is similar in many ways, but it also includes an element around support for information systems, management systems, collaborative arrangements, and also for an enhanced compliance capacity on the Fraser. So it has an additional element as well.

You've asked for an indication of results. We've done third-party reviews, and they've been shown to be quite successful. Starting with the east coast, 31 of the 34 Mi’kmaq and Maliseet first nations that would be eligible are participating; 27 have diversification projects, and an estimated 500 new jobs have been created by this fishery. On the east coast we now have 1,700 full- and part-time jobs in the fishery. About 1,300 of these are harvesters, the rest land-based. The AICFI program is estimated to be directly responsible for 500 new jobs. On the west coast, with the funding we have there, it's estimated to be around 550 new jobs. It's provided considerable access on the west coast as well.

So it is showing progress and real jobs in the communities, supporting an integrated fishery on both coasts.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. Kamp.

Mr. MacAulay.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome the deputy and all the entourage from the Department of Fisheries.

Mr. Grégoire, we'll miss you.

Ms. MacLean, we certainly welcome you. No matter what I did around here over the last few years, the Treasury Board and Fisheries were two important components of anything I had to deal with. So all the best; I'm sure you'll be an asset to the department.

The budget for DFO for small craft harbours was over $200 million at its highest point. Now it's under $100 million. But the government recently announced an infrastructure funding agreement that amounted to $288 million for small craft harbours.

Now, is that over a five-year period? How much will be allocated in each of the years? That's what I would like to know.

9:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Matthew King

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

I'll start us off, and I'm sure Kevin might want to add a few details.

To start with the beginning of the question, the A-base level of the program is set at about $75 million, but I think once in the past five or six years have we ever spent to that level. If you go back in time through the economic action plan, through bump-ups in budgets for storm damage and that sort of thing—and indeed you referenced the announcement that the Prime Minister made last week—it's always been executed at a level quite a bit above that.

I don't remember when the budget was $200 million, but I suspect it had to have taken place before program review when DFO was the custodian of well over 2,000 harbours. I think we're down to 1,050 today, of which 750, as you know, are core fishing harbours. The budget that we have now is what we dedicate to the 1,050 harbours that we have.

There was indeed an announcement last week, which was again announced in British Columbia on Friday, I'm told, that would send to the department $288 million for small craft harbours. That's not over five years, Mr. MacAulay; it's over two years. Effectively for next year we will have our regular $75-million budget, plus the $20 million that the government added last year, plus $144 million—roughly half of the $288 million. So for the next two years the small craft harbour program will be very busy.

As you will be aware, we have a long safety-based priority list for work on the 1,050 harbours that remain with us. I wish I could say this money will exhaust that list. I don't know if it will or not. But I can guarantee that at this quantum we are very hopeful of reducing whatever backlog exists by a very considerable margin.

We're very happy to have this money. We believe we have a talented enough team of project managers to spend this money wisely. As I say, we've long had a list of priorities to which these new fundings would be directed.

Kevin, I'm not sure if you want to add to that.

9:35 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Kevin Stringer

I'll add a little bit to what the deputy said at the beginning in terms of what looks like a reduction of dollars on the small craft harbours.

The deputy mentioned the core program, which has always been the core program. The A-base is $75 million. The government has, at a number of steps, provided specific injections of new cash. In budget 2008 there was $45 million over four years for divestiture of a number of harbours, as the deputy said. I think we did 106 divestitures. Budget 2009 was a very significant investment of $200 million over two years. That was part of the overall infrastructure program that was going on at that time, post the 2008 challenges. Budget 2010 actually had $71.6 million over three years for storm damage. That was funding for Atlantic Canada, Quebec, and Manitoba.

This year we do have the $20 million in addition to the core $75 million, so again we have new funds. Then the deputy has spoken to the new funds going forward that have been announced.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much.

I'm sure it will be an asset. Having been around this a long time...there's always a desperate need in small craft harbours.

In your most recent corporate business plan on page 18, it says the department is unable to sustain a sufficient and representative workforce needed to support, deliver, and manage the small craft harbours programs.

Can you elaborate on this? Have you been cutting funding to the volunteers? What would the problem be? I'd like you to mention the harbour authorities. We did receive some complaints about the harbour authority people being able to travel for meetings and their funding has been cut. Is that correct? Will that be changed?

9:40 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Matthew King

I think you're referring to our corporate risk profile.

Marty, if you can look for that on page 8, I'll start off.

As part of a broader suite of initiatives whereby we, like all other government departments, have looked over the last four or five years at efficiencies, one of the small things we did was ask our harbour authorities, rather than to meet annually, to meet every two years. We have done that with a lot of our volunteer associations across the department. I suspect that's what you're referring to.

In that regard, we managed through.... As Kevin has just told us, in 2008-09, beyond our A-base programming we received from the government $278 million in additional funding for small craft harbours. We managed to spend that over quite a compressed period, over a two-year period.

To my knowledge, we received pretty much a clean bill of health from the Office of the Auditor General on this. We're very confident in our small craft harbour team. If we're flagging it in the corporate risk profile, it's because this, I suspect, is part of a general demographic trend that we're anticipating and are now trying to work in advance to mitigate.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Do you consider those volunteers part of the small craft harbour team?

9:40 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Matthew King

Do you mean our harbour authorities. Yes, we do, of course.

We have 750 core fishing harbours for which revenues from the harbour have been turned over to harbour authorities, who do a fantastic job maintaining the safety and accessibility of the harbours.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

I think the volunteers and the harbour authorities are a vital part of this. I was here when these people were put in place. What that change did was take some of the responsibility of the department and put it with the wharves and the fishermen. I think it added a lot.

I'm disappointed that you had to see fit to cut their funding to meet the need, because I would expect it was the exchange of ideas that would have been.... It's quite an asset to any group of people who are trying to improve infrastructure and put business plans in place. But you have people above you, too.

I think this is most unfortunate.

9:40 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Kevin Stringer

It's enormously important. The reality is, as the deputy said, that the harbour authorities and the volunteers who run them are an essential part of the small craft harbour program.

We have 559 harbour authorities that manage 690 of our 750 core harbours. They collect $24 million annually in revenues, and that is absolutely essential to the running of those programs.

They do meet. There was a meeting, I think in November—about two weeks ago—at which they all got together. I believe it was in St. John's; it was on the east coast, in any case. They continue to be very active, absolutely essential to the work of the program. We estimate that nationally about 5,000 volunteers are effectively involved through those harbour authorities. Our estimate is that, given the number of hours that we understand they work, this is the equivalent of about 70 FTEs. Their work is absolutely essential to the running of the program. We enormously appreciate their work, as the deputy said.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

I do too. As I said, I was here when they were put in place, and I think it took some of the responsibility for the infrastructure and put it in the hands of the fishermen. It put the small craft harbour repair program in a better stance, I would think.

In the corporate business plan there are many references to the physical infrastructure at DFO. Does this area of risk include small craft harbours? Could you elaborate on the risk? What alternatives are you looking at, or is the $288 million going to fix this up?

9:40 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Matthew King

I believe that DFO is possibly the second biggest land and building owner department in government. We actually have quite a big footprint.

In terms of anticipating risk, we often cite our infrastructure as an area that we believe we need to pay special attention to. Small craft harbours is a big part of this, obviously, given their number, but I would include our federal buildings and labs, and the coast guard has facilities and warehouses across the country as well.

We flag this area because we believe we need to stay on top of it. We have, for all of our assets, through our assistant deputy minister for real property, a plan whereby we can dedicate resources to the most pressing issues, always ensuring safety first. This appears in our risk profile because we think we need to pay attention to it on a constant basis.

With respect to the small craft harbour funding that we're discussing now, obviously we will be looking at the health and safety of these harbours first and foremost as we begin the process of trying to determine how to allocate this new money.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. MacAulay.

Mr. Sopuck.

December 2nd, 2014 / 9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Thank you.

First of all I would like to compliment the department on how well the recreational fisheries conservation partnership program is being run. I know it was a somewhat difficult administrative nut for you to deal with, given the complexity of the program and the geographic range. I'm in close touch with the angling groups across the country that participate in the program, and I've rarely heard anything but praise for the department and the field staff who administer it. So I'd ask you, Mr. King, if you could pass that on to the staff. It's a very well-run program.

Could one of you describe the types and geographic ranges of the 385 projects? I don't expect you to describe them all, but just in a short form, the types and geographic ranges of the projects.

9:45 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Kevin Stringer

Thank you very much. Thanks for the question, and thanks for the comments, which we will certainly pass on to the staff. They do work very hard on this enormously useful initiative.

Let me just say there are two things, two general areas, where it's been enormously useful. One is in doing the types of projects that I'm about to describe, and the other is in developing partnerships with groups that are on the ground making a difference. There are hundreds of thousands of Canadians; there are hundreds of groups that care passionately about fisheries protection. This initiative, this program, enables us to partner with them, so it's been very useful.

There are all kinds of projects, and we have a set of criteria and program eligibility, but it really is driven by working with the local groups that know best what is required in their area to improve fisheries habitat. It's everything from riparian restoration and bank stabilization, to removing barriers and dealing with fish passage. There are a number of these types of things.

The program is new, as members will know. The first year was last year, so we only have the first results. But let me just speak to some of the results that we're getting from this program.

In the first round of funding, the first round of support, we did 94 projects, and the estimate is 385. I don't know if that's exactly the number of projects, but there were 94 in the first round, partnering with 74 organizations—community groups, watershed groups, angling groups. We leveraged $7 million with the $3.1 million that came in the first round, so that is $2.25 for every dollar that the government invested. In those 94 projects we have 370 partners that are identified, because we've levered with a number of other groups. So there are 370 partners. They report to us about the number of people who are involved in the project. We've identified 1,700 volunteers that got active with these 94 projects. The estimate is 2.4 million square metres of habitat restored, or 2,000 linear kilometres restored.

In 2014-15—so we're just partway through it—the estimate is that just around 200 more projects are going to get done this year, and then maybe another 100 next year. So it really is making a difference.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Thanks. Yes, we really appreciate the work that's being done by all parties.

Regarding the Pacific salmon run, I had the pleasure of fishing it in August, and given the size of this year's run, it's fair to conclude that the overall system for Pacific salmon production and maintenance is capable of producing these large runs. Is that a fair conclusion to draw?

9:50 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Kevin Stringer

Well, it did produce these large runs this year, and it produced these large runs in 2010. Our objective is to make sure that with each cycle it continues to improve. We remain concerned about some stocks, weak stocks, etc., but overall we certainly saw good numbers this year.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

In terms of aquaculture on the west coast, I understand it's been going on since 1985, net-pen aquaculture, and a number of people have expressed concern about the environmental impact of aquaculture, especially on wild salmon. Given the size of this year's run and the size of the 2010 run, is it also fair to conclude that aquaculture on the west coast is being done in an environmentally sound way?

9:50 a.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Ecosystems and Fisheries Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Kevin Stringer

One of the the things we seek to do with aquaculture facilities is to ensure that we have proper siting criteria, as much as possible not in the migration route, and there is a number of other elements that we take into account in that regard.

We've been doing research on impacts, and we may want to give some details of that and all those types of things, but aquaculture has been there for the long term, and the wild fishery has been there for the long term as well.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I'm on the environment committee as well, and we did a fairly major study on water quality in the Great Lakes. I heard you say that Great Lakes restoration is a program that the department is undertaking. Could you describe what is being done in terms of projects related to restoration of some of the areas of the Great Lakes?