Foreign Affairs Committee on June 21st, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll call this meeting to order.

This is the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study on Canada's role in complex international interventions that involve multiple foreign policy instruments focusing on Canada's efforts in Haiti, we're pleased to have with us this afternoon Rights and Democracy.

First of all, we have Nicholas Galletti, Latin America's regional officer. We also welcome Jean-Louis Roy, president of the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development, known simply as Rights and Democracy. He has held this position since August 2002. Mr. Roy holds a PhD in history from McGill University in Montreal and a master's degree in philosophy from the Université de Montréal.

We look forward to hearing from you in respect to Haiti, which we are studying as a committee.

The way our committee operates is that we allow you approximately 10 minutes to bring a presentation, and then we will go into the rounds of questioning--five minutes for question and answer, and then we move to the next member.

Welcome to our committee. The time is yours.

[Jean-Louis Roy, President, Rights and Democracy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for welcoming us and for the opportunity to have this conversation with you about perhaps the poorest area of the world in the richest region of the world.

Everything I'm going to say stems, we think, from one fact, which, in our judgment, is the most important fact in Haiti's recent history, and which, I believe, warrants Canada's continued interest in that country. That decisive fact is that Haitians have exercised their civil and political rights: 63% of Haiti's electorate voted on February 8. I was in Haiti just before the election, and everyone said it wasn't possible, that the risk of violence was great, that the electoral lists and everything else made it virtually impossible for the vote to take place and that Haitian citizens would have a lot of trouble getting out to vote, also for reasons of poverty, travelling costs, waiting and so on. And yet 63% of the Haitian electorate went out to vote, thus giving all those who had long invested in the transition, particularly in the past two years, a resounding response that the transition would end in a lawful manner and in the assertion of democratic values. That, I believe, was the will expressed by our Haitian friends.

Even though it may appear somewhat rhetorical for those who were in Haiti at that time, I believe we must hail, and never lose sight of, that dignity and responsibility shown by people living in the greatest indignity.

Our view is that these democrats must be heard and that their commitment must be met with a similar commitment by the Haitian government itself. I wouldn't say here that we should be hard on the Haitian government, but we should definitely be demanding of it. The Haitian government, Canada and the international community must show a similar commitment to that shown by the Haitians themselves.

I was very interested in Prime Minister Harper's statement, when he spoke with the president elect of Haiti and said that we were in that country for the long run. I was also very interested to read Minister MacKay's answer to the question by your colleague Mr. Patry on Canada's long-term commitment. You are members of this committee, and I'm not going to quote the minister's answer in full, but he said:

The government intends to remain in Haiti for as long as necessary to complete the reinforcement of international efforts undertaken with other partners. Our work is not done. Canada will therefore be there for an indefinite period of time.

I believe that's the first thing we should recall: it will be hard, long and complicated in Haiti, and Canada is there to stay, according to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

As you will understand, we are dealing with the future of Haiti. In the 10 minutes you have generously granted me, Mr. Chairman, I will focus fairly little on Haiti's history and past. I even believe that everyone interested in that country must make a considerable effort to turn toward the future, rather than get stuck in endless historical analyses of factions, groups and so on.

We think that Canada must promote the establishment of democratic governance in Haiti very soon, that is to say by the end of the decade—and we aren't the first to say so. We must provide Haitian citizens with proof that the choice they have made and the period in which they find themselves will yield positive results, particularly with regard to respect for the rights of every Haitian, the operation of government and democratic governance.

What must be done to bring about democratic governance in Haiti? First, second and third, there must be security. The Government of Canada must fight in New York so that the mandate the Security Council gives to MINUSTAH includes, in the most imperative terms, an obligation to disarm the private groups that have the resources to overturn in a few hours—we see them at work right now—the efforts of many people by spreading terror and murder. These people must be restrained and controlled. Haitian society must be summarily rid of these elements that can quickly underdo all the work that others, including Canada, could do in that country. That's an absolute necessity.

The experience of the international community must be put to use, its resources assembled, its programs in place supported, particularly by the National Disarmament Commission in Haiti. The country must become a living civil society again, sustainable and secure. I would remind us all that security is a human right. It isn't a manifestation of power, a force used against each other, but rather a fundamental human right.

Second, there is the question of impunity. Haiti's prisons are full of men and women living in unspeakable conditions. Some may be guilty, others may not be; no one knows. How do we resolve this matter and prove to our Haitian friends, these democrats I referred to earlier, that the judicial system in Haiti will once again be honest?

I have a few ideas that are not currently very popular, but that I think are essential. The special representative of the UN Secretary General has mentioned the possibility of sending a number of judges from Francophone countries to Haiti to conduct judicial investigations and prepare the basic files on the basis of which the justice system will be able to work. Obviously, we won't send judges from Africa, Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, France, Mauritius or Cameroon without the Haitian government's consent. I hope Canada is working toward obtaining that consent.

When I was Secretary General of La Francophonie, we sent Francophone judges from a large number of African countries to Rwanda following the genocide, and they did precisely that: conducted investigations, and the judicial process was expedited as a result.

As you know, in the past two or three years, our Haitian friends have done some extraordinary thinking on these matters pertaining to the operation and reliability of the judicial system. There is the Haiti citizens forum, which I believe is funded by CIDA, and is a partner of Rights and Democracy in Haiti. There's Group 184, which has prepared a proposal for a new social contract, also with CIDA's support, I believe. In the area of justice, these people have made extremely interesting recommendations. The hope that what they call "the judicial chain" is established on a priority basis and followed. What's the relationship between the police and the judges? What's the relationship between the judges and prison? What is the relationship between prison and the police?

Second, they want training to start now for young judges in order to renew the supply of judges, some of which, in the opinion of many, should eventually disappear from the justice system in Haiti. In that spirit, they hope that a national judicial council is established and developed, a kind of judge of the judges, which would make it possible to determine when a Haitian citizen is no longer fit to perform judicial duties in that country. They also hope that a consultation mechanism, a kind of grand council in which civil society in particular could be represented, is established.

Third, I believe MINUSTAH's upcoming mandate must absolutely dissociate the security requirements I've just referred to from those stemming from the need to promote and protect human rights. In the past two years, the security and human rights mandates have been combined in a single team, under the same authority, and so on. We are no longer in a transition phase. We are in the implementation phase—we hope—of a state governed by the rule of law and democratic governance. We hope so.

We hope that the Office of the UN Commissioner for Human Rights receives the necessary resources to open a permanent office in Port-au-Prince, to determine the status of the situation, as it has done in many countries of the world—the last most interesting case in this hemisphere was in Colombia, and that had some significant effects—and, after determining the status of the situation, which is largely known, to propose that a legislative and institutional structure be put in place for the protection and promotion of human rights, in accordance with international standards. I repeat that the Office of the High Commissioner has done this in a number of countries. I'm pleased to see that La Francophonie has made a commitment to reforming the ombudsman office, which absolutely needs that. It's a fantastic team whose leadership is said to need to be enriched by a board of directors and be supported by a broader authority than that of a single individual. La Francophonie says it will take care of that. The Office of the High Commissioner could help create a national human rights commission in Haiti, as 138 countries of the world have done in the past 20 years.

I see that time is running out. I'd like to say a word about the police. Tomorrow, in 18, 24 or 30 months, or in five years at most, MINUSTAH will be leaving Haiti. At some point, MINUSTAH will leave. There's no army in Haiti; there's no police. I believe that the vice-president of CIDA, Ms. Laporte, gave you some figures on the ratios: one police officer for so many citizens in Canada, Europe, Latin America and Haiti. I'm not going to repeat them. This situation makes no sense. Based on a small survey of some of the resources in Canada, particularly in Quebec, we estimate that the 100 police officers we have in Haiti, in addition to the 25 retired police officers, form a minimum base for Canada's action in this essential area.

One day, the police that we now have to train will be the only force capable of keeping the peace and stability in Haitian society.

I believe that Canada should evaluate its resources. I know there are considerable financial implications. However, doing everything I've referred to in this decade would cost less than starting over in 2014 or 2015, as we're doing because we left Haiti too soon in the 1990s. That's absolutely fundamental.

Canada must absolutely make a direct and constant contribution in the next two or three years to establishing a professional and depoliticized national police force with the necessary standards, resources and equipment to perform its mission and duties. Canada is already intervening, and I should have mentioned that earlier, for the courthouses and certain police stations. We're not talking about that; we're talking about the need to train several thousands of police officers in the next two or three years. Perhaps we could do that in the context of La Francophonie and also, of course, of the OAS. That's an absolute necessity.

Mr. Chairman, since we have to choose, I'd say there's a lot of literature on Canada's support and on the general support for Haiti's civil society. I don't think we can maintain these programs as they are, because we're no longer in the transition phase, or in the crisis that preceded the transition. We're in the process of building a state governed by the rule of law and, we hope, democratic governance. Some elements have remained in Haiti, and they are women's groups, defenders of human rights, young lawyers and other groups. I've seen them; they're our partners, and I know them. CIDA knows them and has given them considerable support, and that's very good. I hope that, rather than help individuals or groups one by one, we'll have a policy designed to consolidate sectors of civil society. There has to be a domestic federation of Haitian women. There has to be a major coalition of human rights defenders. It exists, but it needs to be enriched. There has to be a coalition of youth associations, which I'll come back to, since 52% of Haitians are under 25 years of age.

So the idea is to provide systematic support for the consolidation of a sustainable civil society of these major sectors, to ensure its cohesion for three or five years and to make it capable of proposing economic, social and cultural policies and of playing by the democratic rules. It seems to me we should consider three- or five-year partnerships to ensure that what we do isn't undone in two or three years.

Mr. Chairman, in Morocco, in 2004-2005, Rights and Democracy organized 12 regional forums on democratic culture in the 12 major administrative regions of Morocco and one national forum on democratic culture in Rabat. We propose to do the same thing in Haiti between 2006 and early 2009. People have to be educated in democracy and democratic culture. Mr. Chairman, I'll close by describing one last project that we are finalizing.

In Canada, we have established 40 Rights and Democracy delegations at 40 universities. Each of our delegations is being twinned with delegations we've established in developing countries. Rabat is twinned with Sherbrooke, McGill with Kenya, Moncton with Ouagadougou, and so on. We are working on a program based on this experiment, but that obviously can't be a copy of it. It would be a network of delegations called youth and democracy in Haiti, so that, across the country, there are places for discussion and proposals for this generation of young people who, I repeat, form the majority in this country.

Mr. Chairman, I have no particular proposal for addressing this extraordinary scandal. We're talking about the economy and the private sector. We need investment in Haiti, obviously, but 40% of the children in Haiti will still never go to school in their lives. In terms of social rights, in terms of social development, in terms of economic development, in terms of behaviours of all kinds, this situation must be absolutely changed, and quickly. Countries have successfully completed large scale basic education operations.

Will the Bucharest Summit, which the Prime Minister of Canada will be attending in September, be the opportunity to establish a major 10-year basic education program with the European countries, the African countries and the countries of the Maghreb region, so that we can put an end to this intolerable, scandalous situation in which 35 to 40% of the children in Haiti are uneducated? I know that CIDA is working on consolidation projects for the Ministry of Education, which must be done, but children must be in school in the world in which we live in 2006.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Monsieur Roy.

We'll go to the opposition side.

Mr. Martin, go ahead, please. You have five minutes for your question and answer.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much for being here, Dr. Roy and Mr. Galletti.

We have to be there for the long run, to be sure. For the taxpayer, as well as for the Haitian people, as you've said, we must see steady progress. And our investment must be making a difference.

CIDA's evaluation over a 10-year period of time shows, as you know, that at best, there have been mixed results and, at worst, we're failing. As you know, MINUSTAH, by its own evaluation, is also failing. In particular, our health and education policies have failed. From 1996 to 1999 we spent $184 million on strengthening the public service in Haiti, and yet, arguably, their public institutions are worse now than before.

My questions are really these. What do we need to do specifically to improve the outcomes of the considerable investments that we have made? What can be done to deal with the endemic corruption in the country? And last, faced with the staggering statistic that you mentioned, Dr. Roy, that 40% of Haitian children have never gone to school, what can be done to make sure the investments we're making in primary health and education are making a difference? Or alternatively, can you tell us why they have failed?

Merci beaucoup.

[Jean-Louis Roy]

Well, Mr. Martin, let's take the example of education. I think we have to decide first, and then maintain the decision for at least a decade, that we will change the situation and that kids in Haiti from ages six to eleven or twelve will be in school.

We can build a beautiful plan, and we have done that for other countries. The net result after two, three, or five years should be evaluated this way: how many kids can we bring to schools, on a yearly basis, who were not in school? How many schools can we build? How many teachers do we need? Is it 300, 3,000, 30,000? And can we have a plan, with the Haitians of course, to be sure that after eight or ten years we will have substantially changed the situation as we described it? We have to have a plan and be able to measure results. We have to evaluate what we do. And we also have to be sure that the money we said we would spend in education is spent in Haiti in the building of schools, in the training of teachers, and in bringing the kids to the schools.

I have a little experience in international cooperation. I've been in charge of multilateral institutions for 10 years. The most difficult thing is to be sure that at least two-thirds of the money that we say we will spend on education really goes into that country, in the form of concrete action, to help change the situation that needs to be changed.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Curiously enough, this is exactly the opposite direction.... I agree with you, but this is the opposite direction as CIDA's going in. They have made an explicit statement that they're not going into bricks and mortar. I agree with you; they're going in another direction.

[Jean-Louis Roy]

Well, I cannot see how we will build a democratic governance, un état de droit, in Haiti if a third of the kids are not in school.

I should add to this also a comment about the quality of the schools that exist. As it is today, half of those who go to school are out of school after three or four years. It means that very, very few are going to school until the end of the first elementary level of a school system. This has to be changed, otherwise we will have thousands and thousands of illiterate young people having nothing to do, and doing more than nothing, unfortunately, in many cases.

As for the outcome of our involvement, we have to be extremely cautious and, at the same time, be severe and ask the real question--the one you asked--about the outcome. At the same time, what Canada has done has also produced results in Haiti. I have seen that in Port-au-Prince; I have seen that in other parts of Haiti. I have been there many times in the last 15 years. I mentioned earlier those groups of Haitian citizens who are trying to reflect upon the situation, to propose change and working.... Because of Canada, because of us, many of those people have been able to maintain social services, houses for women who have been raped. They have built private schools. They have maintained a certain semblant de fonctionnement in their society.

I was really impressed in November when I was there for a long period of time--I was there for 10 days--and I think that what we have done in the last two years, during this period of transition, is that we have been able to maintain a strong connection with the political elite and the political class and the administration. Some departments, like the women's affairs and others, have made tremendous contributions during this transition, and we have helped them to do that.

We have also, as a country, been able to maintain a very important link with those Haitians who have decided to stay in their country and try to build something, what we call civil society organization. We have a rare cooperation in Haiti that is all over the country. We are in the capital city, but we are also in agriculture, in reforestation, in various parts of the country. If I read correctly what the new government has in mind, in terms of decentralization, in terms of rebuilding the local communities, we are in a good position to help because we are in all parts. Then it's un bilan; it's active and passive.

I don't think anyone can expect 100% results in a situation like the one that was prevailing in Haiti, but the situation has changed. We now have an elected government. The president has been strongly elected, and 63% of the Haitians who can vote, who went to vote, said that they want another future. I think that's why I said earlier that it will be complicated, even if our friends may have a reaction. We want them to have results. We want to have results with them. We cannot accept any sidetracking. We want results. We want kids in school, new schools. We want new judges, new courts of justice. We want this country to deliver; otherwise they'll fail and we'll fail with them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Roy.

Madame Bourgeois.

[Jean-Louis Roy]

Mr. Chairman, the questions can be put to my colleague Nicholas Galletti, who knows more than I do about Haiti.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Roy, Mr. Galletti.

First, I'd like you to clarify something for me. You said earlier that we should be hard on the Haitian government. Mr. Roy, I'd like you to explain to me what you mean by those words. How should Canada be hard on it?

Listening to you talk earlier, I thought that, when a certain climate of security is restored in Haiti, perhaps, through your Youth and Democracy in Haiti program, we could send our university students there so they can help this social climate you're so keen to blossom. One woman came and told us this week that there weren't a lot of places or resources to educate young people. There may be schools and infrastructure for older people, but the fact remains that everything has to be rebuilt in Haiti. We could send engineers there. There are young students in engineering, law, education and so on. We could go through organizations like yours, which are very familiar with the terrain. What do you think of that?

[Jean-Louis Roy]

Madam, I'd like to comment on the term "hard" and to tell you that I stand by it. At the donors meeting that will be held in July, where we'll expect them to make commitments for a five-year period, Canada will likely—I know nothing about it; I say it's likely—mention figures in the order of half a billion dollars over a seven-year period.

We're choosing to spend considerable amounts of money to support our Haitian friends. When the Prime Minister of Haiti says, in his general policy speech, that the Haitians' highest aspiration is security and disarmament in his country, I applaud him and I say I agree with him.

What do we do to be sure that what you call the most significant aspiration of a Haitian today will be respected by you, will be respected by your government, and will be respected by us, your partner? That's what I mean by sévère.

As for the Youth and Democracy in Haiti program, I take note of your thought on the movement of young Canadians who could travel to Haiti. We could draw on the Rights and Democracy delegation program in Canadians universities. You saw how we immediately twinned universities. All that's done in a partnership format. For example, Ouagadougou and Moncton proposed joint projects to us. These are students from Ouagadougou and Moncton. Exchanges between institutions in Quebec, Saint-Boniface, Moncton and Haitian institutions would take place in the same spirit.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

It would be, on the one hand, an exchange of knowledge and, on the other hand...

[Jean-Louis Roy]

Joint projects.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Perhaps that would result in greater openness to the democratization of Haiti. Every year, many students ask us to give them funding or to help them go and do volunteer work in other countries.

Why not open the door for Haiti? There are doctoral students who have gone there. There are some in my riding, and I think that would be fantastic. We'd be sure that knowledge would be transmitted, but the security of these people has to be guaranteed.

[Jean-Louis Roy]

And we'd also be sure that the Canadian students would learn a lot, madam.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

That's right.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madame Bourgeois.

I think the main part of it is the security end of it. It wasn't that long ago when we were almost encouraging people not to be there, because of the lack of security.

We'll go to Mr. Van Loan first, and then to Mr. Goldring.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Among the 17 projects that Rights and Democracy has in the Americas, you have listed something called "Supporting Civil Society, Human Rights and Democracy in Haiti". What I heard from you in your presentation was this business of the exchange between institutions. Is that something you hope to happen, or is not happening yet? Am I correct?

[Jean-Louis Roy]

No, it's happening within our Canadian program, but in the case of Haiti, we're building it.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Okay, that's what I meant. It's not happening back and forth between the two yet.

[Jean-Louis Roy]

No, not happening.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

The other thing is that you're hoping to have these democratic culture forums, if I got that right. Is that the substance of your organization's active involvement in Haiti, or what is that project that you identify? What is it that you're actually doing there?

[Jean-Louis Roy]

It's two projects for the future. I'd like Nicholas to explain to you what we're doing now in Haiti.

[Nicholas Galletti, Latin America Regional Officer, Rights and Democracy]

Thank you.

We've been in Haiti for just about six months now. We have an office in Port-au-Prince and we've hired staff to run the project that you mentioned. We have six Haitians working for us—

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

That's the conference, the forum?