Evidence of meeting #19 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Flora MacDonald  Founder, Future Generations Canada, As an Individual
Sally Armstrong  Journalist, As an Individual
Surendrini Wijeyaratne  Policy Analyst, Peace and Conflict, Canadian Council for International Cooperation
Robert Jackson  Director of International Relations, University of Redlands
Paul Heinbecker  Distinguished Fellow, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Clerk of the Committee  Mrs. Angela Crandall

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Heinbecker.

Ms. Wijeyaratne.

5:20 p.m.

Policy Analyst, Peace and Conflict, Canadian Council for International Cooperation

Surendrini Wijeyaratne

Thank you. I'll finish up quickly.

On the question of whether the time is right for a peace process, it was fairly clear from the interviews that a lot of different initiatives are going on but they're disconnected. In order to have a more coordinated or formalized effort, there first needs to be an agreement within the Government of Afghanistan that it will happen.

In the international community, Canada can take that first step and play a role in dealing with some of the political reforms. They need to happen rather delicately behind the scenes to form the basis for a more formalized peace process in the future. Those discussions are going on right now, and now is the time to take a more proactive role in responding to them.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Madam MacDonald.

5:20 p.m.

Founder, Future Generations Canada, As an Individual

Flora MacDonald

I'll make one comment about the Taliban, because we keep looking at them as a great monolith. They're like any other political movement: they're off in all directions. When I first went there in 2001 and the Taliban was still the government, I was working with CARE Canada. I went to where we were having what you might call underground schools for little girls, who would come to a room and a woman teacher would come in. This was all supposed to be quiet.

But when I came away one time, a couple of Taliban men approached me. I could tell they were Taliban by the way they were dressed. One of them said to me, “We know what you're doing, but we won't say anything about it if you'll allow our daughters to go to school too.”

So there are people who are more than willing to talk.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you for that, Madam MacDonald.

Mr. Jackson.

5:20 p.m.

Director of International Relations, University of Redlands

Robert Jackson

Going back to the argument about who can be brought into the process, I argued that the national solidarity program is an effort to link the centre to the regions and the local councils to try to unify the country, while at the same time not destroying the centre.

At the present time in Afghanistan--as important as the discussions about local control that are going on in this room--our discussion was that the country should move to a more federal system. In fact, the kinds of differences in the country might mean that the notion of a unitary presidential system should at least be reconsidered if we can get a major constitutional amendment.

That's getting quite romantic for me to put forward, being the hard-nosed realist in this group, but nevertheless there seems to be some possibility here that instead of the local controls being suggested, we may be moving slightly toward a federal kind of issue in the future in Afghanistan. Negotiations on this issue took place this week in Afghanistan.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Jackson.

Madame Deschamps.

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for letting me speak. It is a bit late because I had a question for Ms. Armstrong who seems to know a lot about Afghan women. But I will address my question to Ms. MacDonald.

I do not know what the percentage of women is in the Afghan Parliament. Ms. MacDonald, you said that women are replacing men, their husbands. Is that correct?

I would like to know what your reaction was to the suspension of Mrs. Malalai Joya, who was also a member of the government. She was ousted mainly because she criticized the government of the country and probably Canada’s presence in Afghanistan.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Madam MacDonald.

5:25 p.m.

Founder, Future Generations Canada, As an Individual

Flora MacDonald

She's a very fiery individual, and I've been on platforms with her. I think we make a good duo when we're there.

I may say, with regard to women being in Parliament in Afghanistan--and I see a lot of them all the time--I made the remark about some of them being there to be spokespersons for their husbands, but the majority of them are very active on their own. I always take some delight in telling audiences I speak to that there is a higher percentage of women in the Parliament of Afghanistan than there is a percentage of women in the Parliament of Canada. So it's something we should think of.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Which is right in their constitution.

5:25 p.m.

Founder, Future Generations Canada, As an Individual

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Ms. Wijeyaratne.

5:25 p.m.

Policy Analyst, Peace and Conflict, Canadian Council for International Cooperation

Surendrini Wijeyaratne

Quickly on that point, I don't know Mrs. Joya personally, but I do think that the women in Parliament do face more challenges and that there is a need to further support them. There is a lot of intimidation, a lot of harassment for all of them to do their jobs. There does need to be much more support so that these women, after having gone to Parliament, are able to actually do their jobs in Parliament.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Mr. Jackson.

5:25 p.m.

Director of International Relations, University of Redlands

Robert Jackson

Rather than comment on women, I'll just say that when the Speaker of Parliament gave me the Karzai robe and shook my hand—I'm pretty sure he was a former warlord—his hand was three times as big as mine. When he shook it, I knew that I was dealing with somebody of some prominence in the Afghan culture.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right. Thank you.

We have about a minute left here. Mr. Heinbecker wanted in on that one as well.

5:25 p.m.

Distinguished Fellow, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Paul Heinbecker

I don't think we've answered the question Mr. Chan asked earlier, which was the question of rotation.

It's a yes in principle, but not quite a yes in practice is what I would say. When we got involved in the Second World War, there was no rotating out. We were in and we stayed in. If it was a classic peacekeeping operation, I think it would be easier to get that type of rotation, but it's not. It's a combat operation in a large and significant part, and not everybody is willing or capable of doing it. Life is not fair.

The last point I'd like to make is not related to that, and that is on the business of public diplomacy. One of the recommendations in the Manley report, one of the recommendations in the motion, is that there be a much stronger effort to communicate with Canadians. I don't see how we're going to be able to support this kind of activity, which I think is necessary, but which is not going to be over necessarily in the timeframe people are talking about unless there is communication with the population.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Heinbecker.

Madam MacDonald.

5:25 p.m.

Founder, Future Generations Canada, As an Individual

Flora MacDonald

Could I just mention to the members that I have given you a document that was sent to me by Abdullah Barat, an Afghan who helps run our little NGO in Bamian Province. It's the story of his workload from 1903 and on. One really is amazed at the accomplishments that a single individual can trigger just by the things he gets done.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Madam MacDonald.

There have been a number of questions. Because of these bells, votes, and everything else, there's frustration that we can't have more time with you. You may have wanted to expand on your answers to some questions, but the chairman made you keep it short. I encourage you to submit those answers in writing. Our committee will look at them and they will be entered into the blues. We will make certain they are taken into account. They will be circulated and translated as well.

We want to thank everyone very much for staying. We very much appreciated your testimonials on when you were there, and your expertise.

The bells will start in a minute. To the committee, we will suspend and then come back on our steering committee report that the committee passed.

Can we have a motion to pass the steering committee?

Mr. Martin and Mr. Dewar.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

We are adjourned.