Evidence of meeting #6 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aid.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Excellency Antonio Guterres  United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
Kevin Watkins  Director, Global Monitoring Report, Canadian Global Campaign for Education
Karen Mundy  Member, Canadian Global Campaign for Education

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Order, please.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), welcome to our meeting with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, His Excellency Antonio Guterres.

Welcome, sir. It's an honour to have you here today.

Certainly I understand, in terms of time constraints, that you need to leave at approximately quarter to the hour. We'll make sure that we get started right away. We apologize for the delay as we changed the rooms.

As was mentioned before, we did informally invite the immigration committee. I don't see any members here from that, so you are just speaking to the foreign affairs committee....

Okay, one member. Welcome.

After your opening statement, we'll try to get at least one round of questions in for you, just so that we could have some questions and answers.

Welcome again, sir. The floor is yours.

11:10 a.m.

His Excellency Antonio Guterres United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. It's a great pleasure for me to be here.

I spent 25 years in my own parliament, so as you can imagine, I feel very much at home attending this committee session. I'm very grateful for your wish to have this dialogue with me.

First of all, Canada is an exemplary partner of the UNHCR, a partner in support of our operations worldwide with very significant financial support. But I would say it's not only financial support. This is a very engaged country in the debates about our strategy, our policies, and our internal reforms.

At the same time, Canada has a very solid asylum system. I had the opportunity during this visit to have lengthy discussions with the Minister of Immigration and with the departments that deal with asylum questions in Canada.

This is a moment of, I believe, great interest in the internal debate on these issues. But I will probably concentrate more on our activities worldwide.

The number of the world's refugees and the internally displaced due to conflicts has been relatively stable in the last two or three years. We have about 60 million refugees, including the Palestinians, and 27 million people internally displaced. But even if this number has been relatively stable in the last two or three years, we are witnessing the fact that most of the refugees are becoming so for a protracted situation.

In 2009 the number of people we were able to help go back home in safety and dignity, namely in the three biggest countries of return in the world--Afghanistan, Democratic Republic of Congo, and southern Sudan--dramatically decreased because of insecurity in those countries of origin. What we are witnessing more and more is the tendency of countries in which a peace process was established at a certain moment to go back into conflict, or at least to have their security situation worsen. This makes the present global situation a very worrying one.

If one looks at today's world, I usually divide our operations into two groups. One group of what I would call the “arc of crisis” starts in Pakistan, Afghanistan, goes into Iraq, and the Middle East. That's even if UNHCR is not directly involved in the Palestinian refugees in the area, because there is another UN agency, UNRWA, that was there before we were created. Then there is Sudan, Chad, Somalia, the Horn of Africa, and Yemen.

These regions are the origin of two-thirds of the world's refugees and they have a group of crises that are becoming more and more interrelated. These crises are also strongly linked to considerations of global security—many of these countries are breeding grounds for terrorism in today's world—and in this group of crises, to a certain extent, the relationship between the so-called Western world and the so-called Muslim world is at stake.

To a certain extent the solution to this crisis is the key element to avoid the movement of the world into what some would call a risk of the clash of civilizations. The solution to this crisis would be an extremely important element for world peace and stability. Of course it would also diminish the dramatic humanitarian impact of displacement caused by these conflicts that, as I said, generate about two-thirds of the world's refugees.

And then we have all the other crises. Some of them are dramatic from a humanitarian point of view. There's the Democratic Republic of Congo, for instance, Colombia, Sri Lanka, and many others. But these crises only have a local or a regional impact and can be seen in an isolated way. Because of that, because they do not correspond to a global threat, they tend to be forgotten by the international community. The investment of the media and the investment of the international community--political, developmental, and humanitarian--is, I would say, relatively less relevant than in relation to the arc of crisis that I described.

Another pattern that is very important to analyze and that will be at the centre of the policy debates we will have in 2011 during the commemorations of the 60th anniversary of the 1951 convention of the protection of refugees, has to do with the new patterns of forced displacements.

Traditionally there was a very clear distinction. One could be a migrant moving from one country to another in search of a better life. Of course, this is something that we respect. Canada has been a country of migration through immigration since its very beginning. It's a key source of the fabric of Canadian society. One could be a refugee fleeing persecution or conflict. The distinctions were clear.

In today's world, we are now witnessing the distinction becoming a little more blurred. We are witnessing a new trend of forced displacement. In some situations, we see that extreme poverty, climate change, and conflict are becoming interrelated to a certain extent. It's difficult to know the motivation of someone who is moving from one place to the other.

If one looks at the world's mega-trends--population growth, urbanization, climate change, water scarcity, food insecurity, and the movement of people--they are all becoming more interrelated. To a certain extent they enhance each other. It also is a factor of displacement.

This is a relatively serious problem for us. How can the international community respond to the challenge of these new forms of forced displacement? It may be someone going in a boat from Somalia to Yemen through the Gulf of Aden. As you know, many people die on such a trip. Did this person embark on that journey because of the conflict? Or is it because of the drought in the region? What are this person's motivations? What kind of protection does the international community have to provide when facing these problems?

This is a very important debate. We would not want to change the 1951 convention on the status of refugees but we do recognize the importance of finding better international cooperation mechanisms in order to respond to the need for protection created by the interrelationships of all the factors contributing to increased population movements. Some of these movements are voluntary--this is the migration phenomenon-- but more and more there are new patterns of forced displacement.

Finally, I have to say we are increasingly concerned about our activities. The humanitarian space is shrinking. Security is becoming more complex. Three of our colleagues were killed in Pakistan last year. More and more of the actors in conflicts do not abide by the rules and sometimes directly target humanitarian workers.

Wars between two armies are becoming quite infrequent. In eastern Congo, they are our five or six armies, militias and groups of armed bandits. All of this creates an extremely difficult situation in terms of security. The humanitarian space is also shrinking because of national sovereignty claims made by some governments. For example, Sudan expelled NGOs from Darfur and it was very difficult to get access to the victims of cyclone Nargis in Burma. Moreover it is sometimes difficult to make a distinction between the military and civil presence of the international community.

There are more and more peacekeeping operations in places where peace does not even exist anymore. Thus UN peacekeepers are becoming a part of the conflict and, when this happens, the protection of the humanitarian space becomes increasingly difficult.

There is a last issue that is certainly of interest to the committee. It is the fact that human rights are losing ground against national sovereignty. This development can be observed in a number of countries. The power relationships in the international arena have evolved in such a way that I believe an operation like the one which was mounted a few years ago, when I was in the government of my country, in order to save the people of East Timor would not be possible today. I believe the protection of human rights has lost ground against the protection of national sovereignty, even though the United Nations General Assembly approved the notion of the responsibility to protect. The truth is that this responsibility is now severely limited because national sovereignty is increasingly invoked, sometimes to violate human rights in the most appalling way.

Mr. Chairman, I am now ready to answer questions.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Obrigado.

We're going to start with the Liberals. We're going to try to get every party in. I'm going to try to keep it to five or six minutes, because His Excellency has other commitments.

Mr. Pearson can start. We'll continue around the room, as we normally do.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you.

Thank you so much for coming. It's fascinating.

I'd like to centre a bit on the Sudan situation, if you don't mind, just for my own clarification. I was just there in January, after a period of time during which the number of displaced people who were returning to south Sudan had dipped for a period of time. It has now gone up again fairly dramatically as a result of the elections and the referendum that will be coming soon. I'd like to get your view on that and on how you feel the referendum will affect that.

Second, could you address the environmental refugee situation? We keep being told that it could be a hidden card that could suddenly explode on the world. I'd be interested in your comments.

11:20 a.m.

United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

His Excellency Antonio Guterres

First of all, about Sudan, I think one can say, looking at Sudan today, that there is hope of an improvement in Darfur. There was an agreement between the Government of Sudan and the JEM, the Islamic movement that has an agenda that goes beyond the Darfur question. There was an agreement between Chad and Sudan after the visit of Déby with al-Bashir. The situation is far from being solved, but apparently the government of Khartoum has a strategy now not to solve the problem but to manage the problem in Darfur.

The reason that is happening, in my humble opinion, is that everybody now is becoming more and more concentrated on the south and on the future of the south, and there, our worries are enormously increasing. First of all, the south is very unstable. The number of casualties in the south has been higher than in Darfur in the last few months because of ethnic conflicts. The role of the government of Khartoum in promoting this kind of conflict is not entirely clear, but it's a question.

The border problem is not solved. The oil question is, of course, related to that. And the levels of governance in the south are appallingly bad. There is a risk of a new country emerging, because my belief is that if the referendum takes place, the votes for independence would be overwhelming. But the new country would be emerging as a failed state, with the north interested in keeping it failed.

We are now very concerned about the future of the south. We are reviewing our operations for the south and are doing a lot of contingency planning for a hypothetical situation, which is that independence might be troubled by conflict between north and south, or, more probably, that independence will be acceptable, but there will be the kind of deterioration of the situation that might create displacement and lots of difficulties for the future.

Now, when I said that we would like to concentrate next year on debate in the international community with our member states on the question of new trends in forced displacement, naturally, climate change and the environment are key factors.

I don't think we can speak about refugees of climate or refugees of climate change. Refugees, according to the 1951 convention, correspond to a well-defined category of people. What is also clear is that the environment and climate change prospects are an enhancing factor of many other causes of displacement, be it food insecurity, be it water scarcity, or be it conflict. I mean, water scarcity generates conflict in many areas where farmers and others compete for limited water resources.

I believe the international community needs to address it and needs to find ways to respond to the protection challenges created by this factor that enhances other factors of displacement in a very worrying way in today's world, especially in some parts of the world. Eastern Africa, for instance, is probably today the most evident. But tomorrow, if the rising level of the oceans becomes a reality, we might have very serious problems in some islands in the Pacific, but also in places like Bangladesh, for instance. A one-metre rise in the level of the ocean would mean 20 million to 30 million people displaced in Bangladesh. This is a very big challenge for the future.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

We'll go to Mr. Rae.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I have a personal and fairly indiscreet question, High Commissioner. I noticed from your biography that your first term is up. I'm hoping that you will consider staying on.

11:25 a.m.

United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

His Excellency Antonio Guterres

This is a matter for discussion with the Secretary-General.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Well, after your presentation, I think it's fair to say you certainly have my vote. I can't speak for others.

11:25 a.m.

United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

His Excellency Antonio Guterres

Thank you very much.

I'm not sure I have my wife's vote.

11:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

We all face that challenge.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

You're two votes closer. That's great.

We're going to move to Madam Lalonde for five minutes, please.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

I will share my time with Mr. St-Cyr.

Thank you so much for your presentation, Mr. Guterres, even though the situation you described is quite discouraging.

Do you believe that countries receiving migrants should change their policies in order to admit more? Would it be better to enhance aid in order to reduce migrations? You said in effect that aid goals will not be met. People would have either to stay home or to go elsewhere.

11:25 a.m.

United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

His Excellency Antonio Guterres

Thank you for the question.

First of all, I think it is essential to review development cooperation policies and to implement more effective strategies to avoid forced displacements.

In my opinion, there are two key questions. The first concerns adaptation to climate change. We have to create the right conditions for societies to adapt to changes that are already unavoidable and to offer alternatives to migration.

The second issue is that we need a greater effort of community development in rural areas. Many development cooperation policies have encouraged rural populations to migrate to cities even if rural migration is the first step of the uprooting process. Once they go from the countryside to an urban setting, they tend to go from city to city elsewhere in the world. I believe cooperation to promote agricultural production has been greatly neglected. However it is not enough. We have to promote community development in rural areas so that migration becomes more of a choice than an inescapable fate.

This applies not only to migration, but also to refugee protection. I believe that people today have a somewhat schizophrenic vision of these issues in some areas of the world. It is certainly the case in Europe. I think Canada remains both an open country that considers the positive aspects of migratory movements and a very important asylum country for refugees and for people seeking a better life. In Europe however, there is an alarming shift in public opinion. If you ask European citizens whether they want to have more children, their answer is no. The fertility rate in a country such as mine has now dropped to 1.3 or 1.4. If you ask people if they are willing to work in a neighbouring restaurant, they will say no. In Geneva, I would find it difficult to imagine Swiss citizens accepting some of the jobs I am in contact with. The Swiss are not there, they have other jobs. However, if you ask them whether they want immigrants, their answer is no. This is truly a schizophrenic approach because the three negative answers lead to a dead end.

Moreover, the debate on immigration has become quite irrational in Europe, which is a great concern. It is a debate in which populism is taking root and that, in my opinion, leads to a psychological environment opposed not only to migratory movements but, even worse, to the protection of people who need international protection.

Recent events in a country such as Italy, mainly because of the deportation of people coming from other places, are very alarming. This is not the case everywhere, but in many parts of the developed world, issues relating to population movements are dealt with in a completely irrational fashion. Our organization is very concerned about that as we actively participate in the European debate. Our main purpose is to focus attention on the need for a rational debate and the need to realize that all societies are becoming multiethnic, multicultural and multireligious. This is unavoidable. However, many countries still do not understand that and think they can maintain an identity that is not based on diversity.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Monsieur St-Cyr.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

In order to control the number of refugee claimants, the Canadian government is increasingly requiring an entry visa, which limits the number of travellers admitted to Canada. This requirement was most recently imposed on Czech and Mexican nationals. Canadian authorities say they are meeting their convention obligations since they process the claim of anyone arriving in the country to verify their need for protection. In fact, they create as many barriers as possible to prevent claimants from reaching Canada.

I would like to know if the signatories to the convention are concerned with this situation and if, in your opinion, it is now more difficult for people who really need protection than to hypothetical illegal claimants to overcome these barriers.

11:30 a.m.

United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

His Excellency Antonio Guterres

I had a chance this morning to discuss this very openly with the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. I believe a bill will soon be introduced in Parliament to reform the refugee-determination system. If asked to do so, the UNHCR will formally express its opinion within the framework of the parliamentary debate.

I would say that, generally speaking, our policy is the following. The compatibility of two aspects must be guaranteed: an effective protection system for people who need it and system integrity. Four elements must be considered: access which must remain open; the need to make fair decisions, which is essential; the time needed to clarify people’s situation, which must be realistic since a process that takes 10 years to be completed is useless; and finally the capacity to deport people who do not need protection. In some situations, states having difficulty either to deport people who do not need protection or to make decisions in a reasonable timeframe use access or the quality of the decision to solve the problem. This is to be avoided.

We had today a very interesting and constructive discussion. Obviously, we are going to wait to see what the government will put forward in its bill. If Parliament so wishes, we would be pleased to give our opinion on the evolution of the Canadian asylum system, which has become a reference for the world because it is very important and sound. We believe it must be preserved.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Mr. Abbott for five minutes.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Your Excellency, thank you very much for being here.

11:35 a.m.

United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

His Excellency Antonio Guterres

I sat In Parliament for 25 years.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

I want to make note of not only your personal background, but also the position that you presently hold. As for the compliment that you gave to the Canadian people and to the Canadian government on our involvement in these issues in the world, I thank you for that comment this morning.

I want to put something on the record. If you choose to respond to it, that's fine. Otherwise, I will be passing the questions to Mr. Lunney.

To go to a microcosm on where our government comes from, our government announced a renewal and an increase for our support of the Burmese border areas program, which amounts to $16 million over the next five years. My understanding is that it represents the largest single contribution. We are the largest mover and shaker in that particular area on that program. Canada is taking a lead.

Through a five-year program of building social capital, the Burma border areas program will provide much-needed humanitarian assistance to refugees, provide health services to displaced people, and support many community-based organizations on issues such as violence against women, environmental degradation, forced displacement, access to information, and human rights.

Today Canadian funds have allowed for the treatment of nearly one million cases of malaria and other health problems, provided food aid to approximately 145,000 refugees, and provided health care services to approximately half a million refugees. It's our example of effective and accountable foreign aid.

We have been able to show leadership in the past. The statement I wanted to put on the record today is that I would hope our friends and neighbours who have the capacity to be able to assist in this area would be prepared to follow what I think is Canada's excellent leadership on this and on many other initiatives that we have.

11:35 a.m.

United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

His Excellency Antonio Guterres

You should add to that the fact that Canada has a meaningful program of resettlement of Karen refugees from Thailand, and an important, even if smaller, program of resettlement of Rohingya refugees from the northwest of Myanmar. Karen refugees and Rohingya refugees represent two of the most dramatic situations of human rights violation in Myanmar.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you.