Evidence of meeting #25 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Borys Tarasyuk  As an Individual
Valentyn Nalyvaichenko  As an Individual
Marcin Swiecicki  As an Individual
James Sherr  As an Individual
Andrei Piontkovsky  As an Individual

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

That's all the time we have. I apologize. We're going to move to the next questioner.

Mr. Dechert, go ahead for five minutes, please.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here today and sharing this very important information with us.

I have four questions, so I'm going to ask the questions first to four different people and then let you answer in turn.

My first question is for Mr. Tarasyuk.

Mr. Tarasyuk, you mentioned the Freedom House index, which had reduced its press freedom rating in Ukraine from free to partly free. Maybe you can tell us why it did that.

Mr. Swiecicki, will the elections this coming October be fair, in your opinion, if Yulia Tymoshenko and Mr. Lutsenko are still in prison?

To Mr. Sherr, you mentioned that you had some suggestions for what Canada can do to help. I'd like you to expand on that.

I have one last question, for Mr. Nalyvaichenko. You mentioned that Ukraine needs a strong civil society. The Canadian government is supporting civil society through CIDA in Ukraine. One of the programs, which costs $5.6 million, is aimed at combating corruption. Tell us what you think of that and what else we can do to help.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

All right. You each have one minute. Go ahead.

4:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Borys Tarasyuk

Freedom House is a prestigious international NGO, the activity of which I have traced for many years. I think there is an objective assessment by Freedom House of the human rights situation in Ukraine. Back in 2010—that means a couple of months after the new president assumed power and a new government was created—many analysts were asking why, so quickly, Ukrainian authorities managed to spoil the relationship with democratic institutions like the European Union and the Council of Europe.

Let me remind you that it was in October 2010 that the first critical resolution passed in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe regarding the critical situation of democracy in Ukraine. On November 25, the European Parliament approved the first critical resolution on the situation of democracy in Ukraine.

It required only nine months for the new authorities, led by Yanukovych, to spoil the relationship with the democratic community, which took his predecessor—well, before the predecessor, Leonid Kuchma—six years. For Kuchma, it required six years to spoil the relationship with democratic institutions, and Yanukovych managed to do this in a couple of months.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Mr. Swiecicki.

4:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Marcin Swiecicki

Yes, with Yulia Tymoshenko and Yuri Lutsenko in prison, the elections will not be fully fair—that is certain, but they might be fair enough not to pose obstacles to the ratification of the association agreement, and secondly, to produce the Parliament that will annul the paragraph of the penal code under which Yulia was sentenced.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Mr. Sherr.

4:35 p.m.

As an Individual

James Sherr

We need to persuade the forces that have the key interests that uphold the status quo in both Russia and Ukraine that their socio-economic and business model is not only damaging but unprofitable. The EU has already, in September, in launching raids on 20 enterprises affiliated with Gazprom, taken a very important step in doing what is essential, which is upholding our laws, our norms, and our standards in our jurisdiction.

My belief is that Canada has the experience and the authority to articulate the case for doing this across the board. It is the most effective thing we have the ability to do, which will send tangible messages to people in power in those countries. That's where I think much of our effort should be focused.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Finally, Valentyn, go ahead, please.

4:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Valentyn Nalyvaichenko

Let me support Mr. Sherr in his view that this can be a very influential method—also money-laundering investigations or such anti-corruption investigations.

Anyway, straight to the point that you, honourable parliamentarian, asked of me.

The best way now is to support CIDA and to reconsider their methods and tools—how they support NGOs and civil society in my country. Among the priorities, I would mention those NGOs that stand for fair elections. Also important is not to wait until the election comes in October, but to start now with training courses, with communication devices—even websites for us, for Ukrainians—where we could share information about the preparations, about possible falsifications. We need to begin to protect fair elections now, and not waiting until the day of the actual voting.

The second priority that I would mention is to support Ukrainian diaspora organizations. We have to reconsider what happened and how to protect democracy. The best choice is to start with the Ukrainian diaspora organizations here in Canada, in the United States, Argentina, all around the world. Why? Because they know our country. They speak our language. They know how important it is to support a project like the anniversary of the Ukrainian insurgent army. This could provide a strong message to Mr. Putin and his administration that we are an independent country. We would like the Ukraine to remain Ukrainian, a European country, with our heroes, with our history. That might, in some cases, be a strong and efficient way to provide democracy and to protect it in my country.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you. And thank you for keeping all the answers short.

Mr. LeBlanc.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and my thanks to you gentlemen for your presence here today.

It's certainly been interesting. I regret that these votes and bells keep interrupting what would be a very interesting conversation for Canadians to hear. These sessions are televised. So it's important, not only for Ukrainian Canadians, who naturally have a deep interest in the development of human rights and democracy in Ukraine, but also for other Canadians, who aren't as educated as they should be about the relationship between Canada and Ukraine, as well as the role Canada can play in supporting civil society, democracy, and human rights in Ukraine.

We've heard a lot about some of the problems of the current government and the current administration in Ukraine. It's obviously worrisome. One of the challenges that we hear sometimes is that the opposition is fragmented. I'm talking about the political opposition that could be a counterweight to this particular presidential authority. I'm wondering if there are any prospects in your view for a more united opposition, a more coordinated opposition?

My second question is a direct pickup on what Alexandrine had asked in relation to civil society. We've heard that sometimes in the absence of an effective, free opposition, civil society fills in the gaps. I'm wondering if you could tell us who would be the leaders of this civil society. Who could provide partners for Canadian groups, for CIDA and other organizations that want to contribute to progress in Ukraine?

Finally, if anybody knows of anybody in the current government who might be open to constructive reforms, to real reforms that would bring about some of the changes we heard about on Monday, we'd like to hear from you. Are there any actors in the current government that might be interested in working with Canadian parliamentarians or other groups to try to further this objective?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

We'll direct that to Borys, and then after to James.

4:40 p.m.

As an Individual

Borys Tarasyuk

Thank you for your questions about the opposition. It was unfortunately true that the Ukrainian opposition was fragmented. I will not concentrate now on the reasons, but that was the case. Unfortunately, it was necessary to arrest Yulia Tymoshenko to get all members of the democratic forces to come to the conclusion that we have to unite. The second day after the arrest of Yulia Tymoshenko, the opposition, including me, signed a declaration on the creation of the committee opposing dictatorship in Ukraine. This committee has been working since August of last year. We have already sent a lot of very important messages to Ukrainian society.

Since the 2004 elections, we have witnessed the majority of the Ukrainian electorate supporting democrats. This is a tendency. What is needed from the leaders of the opposition? There are 11 parties together in this committee opposing dictatorship, which demonstrates to our supporters—the majority of the electorate in Ukraine—that we are capable of carrying out our responsibility before the nation. Fortunately, we are doing this quite well. We are planning to win the forthcoming parliamentary elections in October 2012. One objective is to nominate one candidate for each majority district, one candidate from the opposition. The rest will be regarded as the representatives of the authorities.

Another objective is to prepare one single party list. The elections are going to be mixed: 50% on the party list and another 50% on the majority district. Our objective is to get a united party list. Already four parties have signed agreements, including my party, Rukh, the People's Movement of Ukraine, to run on one single party list based on Batkivshchyna, the party of Yulia Tymoshenko. We hope the others will join us, and thus we will present a single list of candidates. For our followers and supporters, which is the majority, it will be easier to identify who to vote for.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much. I'm sorry, sir, that's your five minutes.

I asked the committee. It has been suggested that we come back again at a quarter after. I think we'll do that. We have all come so far that we need to make the best use of our time.

Mr. Hawn, you have five minutes. We'll finish off, and then we'll start back afterwards.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Dobry den moj Ukrainski druze.

For my Polish friends, dzien dobry przyjaciel .

For my Russian friends, zdravstvujte!

Mr. Sherr, I wonder if you could provide the committee with your recommendations in writing—the actions you thought Canada could take, and so on. Could you expand on those a little?

4:45 p.m.

As an Individual

James Sherr

I've provided the total testimony, including what I have omitted.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

That's terrific. That would be great.

Mr. Piontkovsky, as a Russian, how far do you think Vladimir Putin would go? Do you think he would do something akin to what he did in Georgia?

4:45 p.m.

As an Individual

Andrei Piontkovsky

Well, if you believe his rhetoric, he may go very far.

He made his so-called victory speech on the evening of March 1, and he was almost hysterical, with tears in his eyes. He did not speak about his victory over Zyuganov, Zhirinovsky, and the others. He spoke about his victory over “them”, that “they” wanted to destroy motherland Russia. They included the United States, particularly.

He sincerely hates the west, maybe first of all as an example of another political and economic model, and certainly he especially hates Georgia, whose successes are becoming more and more appealing to Russian people. He hates Ukraine because of the Orange Revolution and what it generated.

My personal opinion is that he will not dare do any aerial military operation, and I'll explain to you why. You in the west have enormous leverage on him. This leverage, not only on him but on all the Putin kleptocracy, are the multi-billion dollar accounts, assets, and real estate holdings in the west, in the United States, and so on. All of them are known, well known, not only to the special services of western countries but to all journalists. It's known in Russia.

I recommended several times to my western colleagues just to arrest, or to freeze, the accounts of two gentlemen—the multi-billionaire Abramovich, who lives in London, and the multi-billionaire Timchenko, who lives in Switzerland. Everybody in this world knows that these two gentlemen are Putin puppets and they are managing his financial empire. You have legislation against laundering capital gained through criminal activity. Only the political will from western leaders is needed to inflict a very serious blow on Putin's financial empire and consequently on his political empire and his political ambitions.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you.

Go ahead.

4:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Valentyn Nalyvaichenko

Perhaps I can add just a little bit.

Mr. Putin has already started with the invasion. In Crimea, the Russian Black Sea Fleet is deployed up to 2042. Russian FSB officers, up to 100 people, are back to Sevastopol, again, in Ukraine. Up to 70% of our banking system is dependent on Russia. Up to 75% of Ukrainian media, TV and others, are Russian media.

That's my little contribution to what Mr. Piontkovsky just said.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Very quickly, Mr. Tarasyuk, you're talking about wanting a free and fair election, obviously. Are your election laws favourable to that, or do you need to do something with them? Are your election laws in shape to demand a free election, or to run one?

4:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Borys Tarasyuk

Thank you for your question.

I am of the opinion that the current authorities in Ukraine did their best in order to modify, to tailor, the legislation on elections to their expectations and political will. They diminished the possibilities of the opposition, of democratic forces, through unfavourable conditions. For example, they prohibited parties from running by party blocs. They elevated the threshold from 3% to 5%.

Another point is that they in fact created the conditions, through the constitutional appeal, to remove the provision that allowed, according to the law approved by majority and the opposition, for a candidate to run in two formats—that is, on the majority district and on the proportional system. Most probably, they will modify this provision through the constitutional court, which is in their pocket.

I do not exclude that they will go further in modifying the law closer to the elections. They did it in the 2010 local elections. They modified the law two months before the elections in order to put democrats into a most unfavourable position.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, you have five minutes before the vote takes place, so I am going to suspend the meeting again.

We will be back at quarter after five, I hope, so we will see you shortly.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Welcome back. I guess you never left. It's good to be back.

We're going to continue with questioning. The way it stands is that we won't have bells until 6:40 p.m., so if it's possible to go over time a few minutes we could maybe get a couple of rounds of questions in. I think that would probably work out.

We won't keep you here all night. I promise that.

We're going to move back over to the opposition side.

Madame Latendresse, the floor is yours, for five minutes. Thanks.