Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 26th, 2014

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

The brutality of the security forces, the services, was a rallying point for the anti-government resistance. The security services working under orders from the Government of Ukraine beat and even killed Ukrainian protestors. With parliament now asserting control over the country, what is the position of the security services, and are they expected to work with the acting government? What do you have to say?

[Taras Zalusky]

As recently as the first day in operation of the new government and the removal of Mr. Yanukovych, the military, internal affairs, and the police have given their full support to the new governing authorities, as have the ministries of justice and foreign affairs.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

The Ukrainian parliament has asserted parliamentary supremacy by removing Mr. Yanukovych without using constitutional provisions. The Westminster parliaments have long traditions of parliamentary supremacy and a strong legislature, but what is the status of these institutions in Ukraine and what legal challenges does the Ukrainian parliament face following the removal of Mr. Yanukovych?

[Taras Zalusky]

The legal challenges are many. There was a revision to the constitution. Ukraine has had essentially two constitutions during its time of independence and they have now reverted to what's called the 2004 constitution, which results in a much greater share of power between the prime minister and the office of the president. That's the first one.

The second part of it, of course, is that a number of pieces of legislation that were either manipulated or changed have been reverted to be in compliance with the 2004 constitution. I would say there are approximately 35 to 40 pieces of legislation which have consequently been amended to be consistent again with the previous constitution. One of them that's outstanding is the electoral law.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

That's all the time we have. We're going to finish off with Mr. Garneau for the first round and we'll have time for a quick couple of rounds.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony today. We're hoping that a very substantial number of observers from Canada will go to Ukraine to be involved with overseeing the election process.

I'd like your personal opinions about how best to deploy them, because many Canadians who might go, of course, have the benefit of speaking both Ukrainian and Russian. That is a very important quality to have in this particular case. We're hearing about difficulties in the Crimea at this particular time with different factions.

I would like your opinion on where you think we might best deploy Canada's observers for this upcoming election.

[Taras Zalusky]

I think that what we've seen since the weekend was a lack of the type of foment and unrest that was widely predicted before the fall of Yanukovych, with the exception of the Crimean peninsula.

I think that people who were cowed to that point in time and did not criticize the government then felt free and you had tens of thousands of people joining the protestors from everywhere, even in deep Russian-speaking areas.

I think that for a credible role to be played, you would have to have good, unbiased coverage across the entire country. Don't forget it's a presidential election. There will likely be a first round and then a runoff. Not to get into the tactical elements of where you would deploy, but I would suggest wide deployment across the country.

[Zenon Potoczny]

Maybe I could add to that. I still feel that what you said, someone speaking Ukrainian and Russian, is very important in the force that's going there. I would still concentrate more on the eastern and southern parts, so all the very much pro-Russian or whatever forces. I would still send the majority of them there.

In western Ukraine, Taras, I think you would agree, it's fairly stable and fairly normal, but eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are going to be very tricky.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

Concerning Russia, I do hope our Prime Minister will contact the President of Russia, but I'm getting mixed messages. Obviously yesterday, Ambassador Mamedov said that there is absolutely no question of anything and yet you've mentioned MPs offering expedited departures from the Crimea. Also, we're hearing about military exercises occurring.

What's your feeling about the situation? Are you seriously concerned? How would you describe your feelings?

[Zenon Potoczny]

I am seriously concerned, because suddenly the military exercise in the region came from nowhere. That's very strange. I just don't like that whole plan, which is almost like a copy of the plan in Georgia, where they are not giving them passports for them to leave; they're giving them passports so later they can use the excuse that they're coming in to help their Russian citizens. If they gave them passports and asked them if they wanted to come to Russia, go ahead, I don't mind. Everybody has the free will to live where they want to live and to go where they want to go. But this is not the purpose for wanting to give them the passports. They want to give them the passports so later they can use that excuse of coming in. I'm very concerned about that.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

With the events of the last day, the possibility that Mr. Yatsenyuk will become the prime minister and a vote tomorrow, how do you feel? From your intimate knowledge of the situation, are you optimistic about the vote tomorrow establishing the interim government and starting the process in getting off to a good start?

[Taras Zalusky]

I think we have to be optimistic.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Yes. Are you?

[Taras Zalusky]

Look, even today, I've seen two different lists of who will be in that unity government. I think it's a bit of a mug's game to try to predict who will actually be in the cabinet. I think the names that are being circulated are quite credible among those that have been circulated in most recent days.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

I wasn't so much concerned about who would be in, but is there a sense that, yes, we want to make this work and that everybody's ready to compromise a bit?

[Taras Zalusky]

On everything except for corruption. If it were up to the politicians—no disrespect to anyone in the room—the people of Ukraine would have had Viktor Yanukovych as president for another 10 months. The people on the Maidan put their foot down and they said, “We won't have any more of it.” They're going to continue to hold this new unity government to a much higher standard than we've been used to in Ukraine. I think that is a very good sign and gives room for optimism in this situation.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Finally, I'd like to talk about the economy. You have drawn a picture of some fairly major obstacles in terms of getting the economy on a solid footing, and you both mentioned corruption many times. There's no question about that.

In terms of trying to identify what single most urgent measure there is to try to start to move the economy forward, other than the IMF providing a restructuring loan, is there anything within the country that you think needs to happen with the new government to move the ball forward?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

In 30 seconds; I'm sorry, but we're running low on time.

[Zenon Potoczny]

Unfortunately, I would say that, yes, western aid right now is critical. I think this government is going to be very serious about it and they're going to really follow the rules when you give them these funds, but without it, it's impossible to survive.

I was born in Poland. I saw Poland before they went to the European Union. What has aid from the European Union done for them? There's totally no corruption. The country is totally reformed. The infrastructure is totally brand new. I believe Ukraine can be the same. Why not? You just have to give them the chance. You can't walk away from them right now. Give them the support and they'll do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Garneau.

Mr. Goldring, for five minutes.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you for appearing here today, gentlemen.

First, I want to express our deepest sorrow and condolences for those patriots who lost their lives or were badly injured, and for their families and friends as well. It was truly an example that sometimes the price of democracy, unfortunately, is patriotic lives. They are truly heroes of the Maidan, and I'm sure they're going to be recognized as that forever.

It's good to hear, Taras, your encouragement for linguistic inclusiveness, because when I was there at Euromaidan in December, one of the things I noted very importantly, having been in Ukraine since the Orange Revolution and every election since, is that one of the difficulties seems to be this linguistic divide. To see Russians speaking and Ukrainians speaking—maybe not in even numbers, but being represented there at the Euromaidan, standing together—bodes well possibly for the future of the country. It's good to see that.

The second observation I would make here is on the gas reserves. My understanding, and maybe you could comment on it, is that you can put huge reserves, but what does that equate to? Do they have a number on it as far as its value is concerned?

I've heard that Russian Gazprom funds environmentalists who are standing against the development of the shale gas. Is that an actuality? That certainly can tie things up. It sounds to me as though it's Russian Gazprom that's financing them, because it's competition. If they can stop the gas from being developed, that would certainly serve its purpose.

I really believe that asset either could be mortgaged now or they could invite some of the other countries to give bridge funding. It could be not so much giving money to the country, but it could be bridge funding on the basis of that potential reserve.

Could you comment on that?

Before we touch on that one, I'm just going to comment. It all is together, because it ties in with the trade and the desire to get back to free trade discussions with Canada. It's all economics. One of the things that certainly was also very evident to me when I was there was that there wasn't the desire to shut the border to Russia, because as you correctly identified, one-third of the country's trade is with Russia. They want to continue the trade with Europe and continue the trade with the rest of the world, so it's not a matter of turning their back on Russia; it's a matter of having the nationhood right to trade with whomever they please.

I've rolled that all into probably two, three or four questions, but if you could handle it—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You have about a minute to answer them all.

[Zenon Potoczny]

Maybe quickly on the gas, definitely there are rumours—I have no proof—that Gazprom was financing all these environmentalists to cause some problems. I noticed that in eastern Ukraine when Shell was signing the deal with the Ukrainian government, there were very few complaints about the environment, because that was a very tightly controlled area of Yanukovych and his group. They basically just told them to sign and not to ask any questions.

In western Ukraine, on the other side, where Chevron was signing the agreement, it was delayed a couple of times by a month or two or three, and there were quite a few environmental groups that were sort of fighting the signing. Obviously, Yanukovych did not have enough power and pull in western Ukraine to just tell them to sign it.

There has been that rumour. I can't confirm whether it was Gazprom that financed it or not.

On gas, definitely there are numbers you can put on these reserves. All these companies that are signing these deals are big companies. They know what they're getting into. Each of these deals is in the range of $10 billion, so these are huge deals. If Chevron signs a deal for $10 billion, it obviously has done enough studies, because it is committing on paper to putting that amount into developing the field, which is eventually going to be split, country-company, in this production-sharing agreement. That's what they like.

One thing Yanukovych and his group did was to pass legislation on production-sharing agreements, which is a very big thing, because in Ukraine before there were funny structures but no production-sharing agreements. He has done it, maybe thinking he would be a partner in all of this, so he wanted to be protected more than anybody else, but he has done a very good job on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you. That's all the time we have.

We're going to have one very quick question from Madame Laverdière, and then we're going to have to wrap up.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will make a quick comment and then ask a question.

My colleague, Ms. Brown, brought up the issue of tenders. Let me say that this has become very common in recent years. Some NGOs have been waiting for three years for the calls for tenders under the partnership program. In any event, we hope that you will have some news very soon about your call for tenders.

Let me now ask you a question. A delegation with Minister Baird and Paul Grod has left Canada.